NH NH - Allenstown, Adult Female & 3 Children, found Nov'85 & May'00

[Shane 65]

Where did you find that picture on the left?

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

I personally believe the adult victim and oldest child are sisters or half-sisters. I think Evans used the single dad routine with his daughter to meet her, then they blended their family. Maybe the adult victim and oldest child's mother died prior to their murder and the sister went on to live with her older adult sister. I believe this is why they weren't reported missing.

What I'm saying is maybe we aren't looking for a mother and two daughters, but a mother, daughter, and aunt/sister. It is quite possible they were never reported missing especially if the mother dying situation was true. A lot of work, but maybe searching through obituaries from NH in 1980 that had a mother being survived by two daughters with a 20 year age gap. Needle in a thousand haystacks, I know!

 

[Alleykins]

I personally believe the adult victim and oldest child are sisters or half-sisters. I think Evans used the single dad routine with his daughter to meet her, then they blended their family. Maybe the adult victim and oldest child's mother died prior to their murder and the sister went on to live with her older adult sister. I believe this is why they weren't reported missing.
What I'm saying is maybe we aren't looking for a mother and two daughters, but a mother, daughter, and aunt/sister. It is quite possible they were never reported missing especially if the mother dying situation was true. A lot of work, but maybe searching through obituaries from NH in 1980 that had a mother being survived by two daughters with a 20 year age gap. Needle in a thousand haystacks, I know!

It's possible they were siblings, my ex hubby and his sister were 20 years apart. When she was three, we'd take her to the mall and everyone thought she was ours. They didn't believe she was my sister in law, LOL.
My thought has always been that whoever may be looking for them, is looking for part of the group, not four victims, so the unit is not ringing a bell for the families. The adult female's family may be looking for just her, or her and the oldest child, depending when they last saw her. They may have no idea there were two other children with her, one not even her own. Same goes for the middle child's family; they may be looking for her and RE (or whatever name he may have used at the time), not four females. The same could be said of friends and neighbors, if they moved around a lot. They may remember the adult female with two children, and didn't know about the middle child.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

It's possible they were siblings, my ex hubby and his sister were 20 years apart. When she was three, we'd take her to the mall and everyone thought she was ours. They didn't believe she was my sister in law, LOL.
My thought has always been that whoever may be looking for them, is looking for part of the group, not four victims, so the unit is not ringing a bell for the families. The adult female's family may be looking for just her, or her and the oldest child, depending when they last saw her. They may have no idea there were two other children with her, one not even her own. Same goes for the middle child's family; they may be looking for her and RE (or whatever name he may have used at the time), not four females. The same could be said of friends and neighbors, if they moved around a lot. They may remember the adult female with two children, and didn't know about the middle child.

I agree, the youngest may not have been known to the adult victims family. Could be a case of family abduction that wasn't reported when her oldest was young. Authorities could have not reported it much like Suzanne Sevakis in a time when parental abduction wasn't taken as seriously.

I've wondered if the adult victim was a teenage runaway who grew up and had children, and the family were just looking for her unaware of the other's existing. This case has had a lot of that in the investigation. Searching for the wrong number of missing persons. When the first barrel was discovered in 1985, they were searching for a mother and daughter until 2000 when the other two children were found they were searching for a mother and three children until the middle child was found to be unrelated in 2014.

 

[Roselvr]

I personally believe the adult victim and oldest child are sisters or half-sisters. I think Evans used the single dad routine with his daughter to meet her, then they blended their family. Maybe the adult victim and oldest child's mother died prior to their murder and the sister went on to live with her older adult sister. I believe this is why they weren't reported missing.

What I'm saying is maybe we aren't looking for a mother and two daughters, but a mother, daughter, and aunt/sister. It is quite possible they were never reported missing especially if the mother dying situation was true. A lot of work, but maybe searching through obituaries from NH in 1980 that had a mother being survived by two daughters with a 20 year age gap. Needle in a thousand haystacks, I know!

LE know if they are siblings or mother/daughter. With my genealogy DNA test both of my kids tested as children and siblings with different fathers. The only thing they got wrong was marking my daughter and her aunt as a possible 1st cousin. Her aunt has a different father then her father does

 

[Alleykins]

LE know if they are siblings or mother/daughter. With my genealogy DNA test both of my kids tested as children and siblings with different fathers. The only thing they got wrong was marking my daughter and her aunt as a possible 1st cousin. Her aunt has a different father then her father does

I agree with you that investigators should know what the maternal relationship is between the three related victims, but I'm curious as to why they won't come out and say so. Last I heard, they said they weren't sure. Have they amended or updated that statement somewhere? In the 2015 press conf. the AG stated they weren't sure, only that they knew it was maternal. That's the last official word I recall about that point.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

LE know if they are siblings or mother/daughter. With my genealogy DNA test both of my kids tested as children and siblings with different fathers. The only thing they got wrong was marking my daughter and her aunt as a possible 1st cousin. Her aunt has a different father then her father does

That's interesting, I wonder if tests done on a live person is a lot clearer than done on a deceased person. Could be the difference of how DNA was obtained. Like a saliva swab as opposed to DNA being retracted from the bones.

I agree with you that investigators should know what the maternal relationship is between the three related victims, but I'm curious as to why they won't come out and say so. Last I heard, they said they weren't sure. Have they amended or updated that statement somewhere? In the 2015 press conf. the AG stated they weren't sure, only that they knew it was maternal. That's the last official word I recall about that point.

I agree they probably are withholding some information, especially on newly discovered info on Evans to follow leads before releasing to the public, but the relation of the victims is one I don't see why they would conceal. Someone may remember a woman raising her deceased sisters children (an example), while not releasing most people are searching for a mother and two children.

 

[Alleykins]

I agree. I'm not sure how concealing the exact nature of their relationship could jeopardize the investigation. Most people assume it's mother/daughters, anyway.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Where did you find that picture on the left?

Which one ?


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[kemo]

I agree. I'm not sure how concealing the exact nature of their relationship could jeopardize the investigation. Most people assume it's mother/daughters, anyway.

Mitochondrial DNA can often be recovered from bone when all nuclear DNA has become degraded. Sometimes that is all they have. If the remains of a grown woman and a child are found together and all they have identical M-DNA, it is pretty solid proof that that they are descended from the same female line. It is probably a good guess that they are mother-child but not absolute proof. If enough Nuclear DNA also matches the odds that they are not Mother-child drops to close to zero.

Since enough Nuclear DNA was recovered to draw the conclusion that Evans was closely related to the middle child, I suspect the other two were matched to the adult the same way but the analyst was just being technically accurate. I think we can operate on the assumption that these are children of the adult.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

That's interesting, I wonder if tests done on a live person is a lot clearer than done on a deceased person. Could be the difference of how DNA was obtained. Like a saliva swab as opposed to DNA being retracted from the bones.




I agree they probably are withholding some information, especially on newly discovered info on Evans to follow leads before releasing to the public, but the relation of the victims is one I don't see why they would conceal. Someone may remember a woman raising her deceased sisters children (an example), while not releasing most people are searching for a mother and two children.

What if it IS a sister raising her two nieces and her sister is a deceased woman named "Elizabeth". If "Elizabeth" is already gone and there were no other relatives, there would be no one to report this woman and two children - OR Elizabeth - missing. Perhaps he tells the sister that Elizabeth took off and left him with the two kids.

NOT my theory, just pointing out that there are so many different scenarios that if we really don't know if the deceased woman is the mother of both, then we should not assume so and keep our minds open.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

Goong back through some of the older articles ...

November 2015

University of South Florida scientist Dr. George Kamenov performed the isotope testing. He said his findings suggest that roughly six months before their deaths, the adult victim visited Upstate New York where one victim possibly lived. Then she returned to New Hampshire with the child.


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[Alleykins]

Goong back through some of the older articles ...

November 2015

University of South Florida scientist Dr. George Kamenov performed the isotope testing. He said his findings suggest that roughly six months before their deaths, the adult victim visited Upstate New York where one victim possibly lived. Then she returned to New Hampshire with the child.


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BBM
That's what I was trying to clarify for a few months, that the northern area the 3 victims visited 3-7 months before they died was the same area where the middle child was from, which coincided with her joining them.
Does upstate NY correspond to any of RE's known/professed whereabouts?

 

[Aleph]

BBM
That's what I was trying to clarify for a few months, that the northern area the 3 victims visited 3-7 months before they died was the same area where the middle child was from, which coincided with her joining them.
Does upstate NY correspond to any of RE's known/professed whereabouts?

Nope.


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[Kiln Wood]

BBM
That's what I was trying to clarify for a few months, that the northern area the 3 victims visited 3-7 months before they died was the same area where the middle child was from, which coincided with her joining them.
Does upstate NY correspond to any of RE's known/professed whereabouts?

I don't know the answer to your question that I placed in bold type, and I'm nodding off so I can't look now, but I will offer that Plattsburgh, New York, which is in the far northeast of the state, is due south of Montreal, is just east of Dannemora State Prison, and is along I-87. If I remember correctly, there is a Native American reservation (either Iroquois or Seneca) in or near the Adirondacks that are southwest of Plattsburgh.

North of Plattsburgh is the town of Champlain which is practically on the U.S and Canadian border and offers access to U.S. Route 2 that if followed east would lead into Vermont north of Burlington and then farther east into New Hampshire west of Lancaster. It is worth noting that just south of Burlington is I-89 that terminates at the junction of I-93 in Concord, New Hampshire approximately ten miles north of Manchester and ten miles northwest of Allenstown.

 

[folieadeuxnola]

BBM
That's what I was trying to clarify for a few months, that the northern area the 3 victims visited 3-7 months before they died was the same area where the middle child was from, which coincided with her joining them.
Does upstate NY correspond to any of RE's known/professed whereabouts?

There were no known locations listed for RE in upper state NY however there are no known locations for RE pre-Manchester 1977 either..

 

[folieadeuxnola]

As some have commented before it would be very hard road to determine the exact Native tribe ... Majority of US has some native ancestry ... Natives were here long before my Irish ancestors over time the natives and immigrants blended.

There are two yellow spots in the isotope map that are in upper state NY.

 

[carbuff]

It doesn't really matter whether he was known to be in New York state. It's a two or three hour drive to NY from Manchester; he could have driven and returned in a day with no one knowing he was gone.

 

[aThousandYearsWide]

One thing I've been thinking about, and I'm not trying to shoot down someone else's ideas or anything of that manner, just have a question and opinion on it. I compare and contrast my opinion to some facts/what if's.

My thought is that the does were primarily Caucasian with some Native American ancestry Now hear me out, I feel like if they came out of a reservation that their native heritage would be more apparent or even more obvious in their skeleton, now I am not discrediting it and not denying that it could happen (Lumbee indians had Cherokee and white ancestry) & (scan to the bottom of my post), but just see it as Namus or the Doe Network would have more likely listed them as Native or Biracial if they had been.

Wikipedia mentions that they have possible native:

The woman may have had Caucasian and Native American heritage...The three girls may have also had Native American heritage, with light or white complexions

This would be consistent with native heritage similar to Lumbee Indian like I mentioned or close relative being native (parent/grandparent).

However Namus lists them as only white:
Adult
5-11 year old
Evan's daughter
Child 1-3 year old

I feel like if they were more native then they would have black/brown or darker hair in general, but all victims are described as having either blonde-dark blonde-light brown hair. They could have had a native parent/grandparent though. My grandmother had Native in her, she had dark hair, eyes, and skin, and she had 3 out of 4 blonde children.

Another thing I noticed in their Namus profiles is the adult had shorter hair, and I always had imagined her with longer hair. Could have been cut or lost through decomp though.

The National Center for Missing & Exploited Children composite of Evan's daughter looks very native or Hispanic, but the other one's don't appear as much.





Update:
I found some info that suggested they could have been more Caucasian and still could have lived on a reservation.

You don't need to be Native American AT ALL to live on a reservation. My reservation has plenty of non-Natives and another reservation in my state has more nons living on it than enrolled members.


Some reservations do require you to have above a certain percentage to live on one. My aunt looked into it before just in interest and found out our native bloodline wasn't enough. (My grandmother had some native heritage)

 

[folieadeuxnola]

It doesn't really matter whether he was known to be in New York state. It's a two or three hour drive to NY from Manchester; he could have driven and returned in a day with no one knowing he was gone.

Very true .... Even for a couple of days do not believe there would be much question.