NY - Captured, escaped convicted killers, David Sweat & Richard Matt, Dannemora #9

[Hatfield]

They shoot to kill because they may not get a second chance and they are aiming for the largest target which is center mass. That means usually your heart/lungs/chest area. jmo

I have heard LE talk on TV that they are trained to shoot at center mass like you said.

Once LE makes the decision to shoot then it is typically always for center mass to stop the threat. And it can likely end in death.

The decision they have to make is before the shot. Is the guy giving up or not?

In this case I think the orders the LE had was to take out the threat. I dont think there was a lot Matt or Sweat could have done unless they made it totally obvious they were surrendering.

Heck Sweat was unarmed and shot in the back. It tells you right there what the orders were.

IMO
About the only thing either of the prisoners could have done to surrender is to strip naked and make sure both arms and legs were visible as they lay on the ground and yell out they are surrendering.

 

[Greater Than]

CBP Statement on the Agent Involved Shooting near Malone, New York


http://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/speeche...statement-agent-involved-shooting-near-malone

One of the agents came up on an individual who was lying down behind a fallen tree. Agents verbally ordered the individual to put his hands up. An agent observed the individual fail to comply with the verbal commands and aim what was determined to be a 20-gauge shotgun at him. The agent discharged his service-issued M-4, striking the individual, who died at the scene.

That statement is not even close to what D'Amico and others have claimed to have happened.

Where did the lying down and pointing the gun come from?

Kinda shady.

 

[Hatfield]

That statement is not even close to what D'Amico and others have claimed to have happened.

Where did the lying down and pointing the gun come from?

Kinda shady.

Yeah. I am not convinced no matter what the final report says.

Even when some may say they didnt comply with orders to stop, I think it may have been more like this as the officer yells for them to stop.

"S....T.....(BOOM)......O.......P"

 

[MsFacetious]

Everyone in prison is aware that attempting to escape can get you killed.
They can shoot as you climb the fence... before you are even out of the prison grounds.

These two guys were not stupid. Matt had been shot escaping in the past.
They BOTH knew that escaping would likely result in their deaths.

Matt had been made out (by his own son) to be this invincible legend who just couldn't be killed.
Sweat not so much. I think that is one reason he is alive and Matt isn't.

I am all for not shooting to kill and using other tools when it is possible.
However, this was an extreme situation and I cannot blame these officers. :twocents:

 

[Hatfield]

Everyone in prison is aware that attempting to escape can get you killed.
They can shoot as you climb the fence... before you are even out of the prison grounds.

These two guys were not stupid. Matt had been shot escaping in the past.
They BOTH knew that escaping would likely result in their deaths.

Matt had been made out (by his own son) to be this invincible legend who just couldn't be killed.
Sweat not so much. I think that is one reason he is alive and Matt isn't.

I am all for not shooting to kill and using other tools when it is possible.
However, this was an extreme situation and I cannot blame these officers. :twocents:

It kind of reminds me of the manhunt for Christopher Dorner in California who went on the run after shooting people.

He was very dangerous and LE had similar orders I believe with how to deal with him. LE even mistakenly shot 2 newspaper delivery people thinking they were him.

Its a tough predicament for LE. If they make a wrong decision then they themselves could be dead.

There was a great training thing that I saw on TV once where LE had to decide if the guy was a threat or a civilian. It was very tough to do. Its real interesting if anyone ever gets a chance to see that. It was kind of a news story about the deicisons LE have to make.

Its a tough thing and someone did give orders to the men out in the woods too so that came into play. I am pretty sure the orders they had were to stop the threat.

The bottom line is it does come down to an individual decision each officer would have to make at the time of kill/capture/take into custody decisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner_shootings_and_manhunt

 

[Nana]

Well here we go again....
Almost 7 pages of the same crap LE should have used this or should have shot here blah blah blah!
Fact is if they had stayed their azz in prison where they were supposed to be they would not have been shot or dead, they got what they asked for!
Now I'm out of here.

 

[Greater Than]

I have no problem with Matt being shot dead. I also have no problem with Sweat being shot in the back...and if those shots to the back had killed him, I'd have no problem with that either.

As escaped murderers, they were a potential threat to anyone and everyone they came across. Neither surrendered, and if LE hadn't shot them, other people's lives would have been in danger.

They were convicted felons sentenced to life. As a consequence for committing their crimes, they forfeited many rights law abiding citizens enjoy. Inmates have rules they are required to follow while serving their time in prison, one of which is they cannot leave. And if they break that rule and sneak out, NY State law permits an officer to use deadly force. They didn't have to be armed...they didn't have to pose an imminent threat...by simply committing the crime of escape in the first degree, LE can use deadly force.

So regardless of the circumstances that led to Matt's death, LE did nothing wrong by taking him out. What I question though is the discrepancy in the details and why this discrepancy exists.

 

[Bravo]

I find reporting today is so conflicting Greater Than. Once the dust settles I'm sure we will get details based on the Investigation as to the shooting of these two.

 

[Bravo]

So happy no innocents were harmed in this. I caught briefly on CNN of the changes now in place at the Prison. Ya know the one's that should have been enforced prior and avoided this whole mess. If I find a link I will post.

 

[Greater Than]

I am waiting to see the gun, and would love to see it given back to the owner, if it does exist. jmo idk

I think it does exist. The shot to the camper, followed by the smell of gunpowder in the cabin, and then Matt being discovered in the woods close by all point to him being armed IMO.

I know the gun is not visible in the photo that was released of Matt, but he had clearly been moved before it was taken. There's a puddle of blood in the dirt about a foot from his head. The gun could've been on the other side of him, but I would assume LE removed it from his potential reach immediately after shooting him. JMO

 

[Bravo]

changes

http://news.yahoo.com/official-2-convicts-practiced-escape-plan-breakout-115251297.html#

 

[human]

I have no problem with Matt being shot dead. I also have no problem with Sweat being shot in the back...and if those shots to the back had killed him, I'd have no problem with that either.

As escaped murderers, they were a potential threat to anyone and everyone they came across. Neither surrendered, and if LE hadn't shot them, other people's lives would have been in danger.

They were convicted felons sentenced to life. As a consequence for committing their crimes, they forfeited many rights law abiding citizens enjoy. Inmates have rules they are required to follow while serving their time in prison, one of which is they cannot leave. And if they break that rule and sneak out, NY State law permits an officer to use deadly force. They didn't have to be armed...they didn't have to pose an imminent threat...by simply committing the crime of escape in the first degree, LE can use deadly force.

So regardless of the circumstances that led to Matt's death, LE did nothing wrong by taking him out. What I question though is the discrepancy in the details and why this discrepancy exists.

I think in the beginning everyone wants to be first with the news. When the dust settles, we will hear a cohesive explanation. I see no reason for any lies.

 

[Greater Than]

I think in the beginning everyone wants to be first with the news. When the dust settles, we will hear a cohesive explanation. I see no reason for any lies.

I see no reason for lies either, but there are discrepancies. I'm not referring to what the media has reported, I'm talking about what D'Amico said at the press conference the day Matt was killed. He did not mention Matt was lying down. He did not say Matt pointed the gun. What he said was a tactical team member engaged Matt and ordered him to put his hands up, and when he did not comply, he was shot and killed. Pointing the gun at the officer is a detail I would think he'd include. JMO

 

[Dr. Watson]

I like how everyone here for pages and pages here could not wait to capture the murderers that were on the loose with guns for three weeks. Then, when they are caught, complain about the way they were shot. They were desperate, violent, pathological, armed hardened criminals that had murdered police and dismembered old men.These guys were fighting for their lives. What did you expect LE to do, talk them into a paddy wagon?

 

[BUF]

Hmmmmmmm...

Now others that were in the honor block are complaining about abuse since the escape. Read on...

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s3841170.shtml?cat=10114

 

[cady]

A lot of spin going on, as usual. Please, for once, just tell it like it is. JMO

 

[epiphany]

<snip>

The agents on the team, known as BORTAC, entered the woods at 3:45 p.m.

"One of the agents came up on an individual who was lying down behind a fallen tree," Border Patrol spokesman Kris Grogan wrote Thursday in an email to the Burlington Free Press.

"Agents verbally ordered the individual to put his hands up. An agent observed the individual fail to comply with the verbal commands and aim what was determined to be a 20-gauge shotgun at him. The agent discharged his service-issued M-4, striking the individual, who died at the scene."

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../border-patrol-killing-richard-matt/29617141/


Both shootings of the inmates/escapees were justified

 

[monster12]

<snip>

The agents on the team, known as BORTAC, entered the woods at 3:45 p.m.

"One of the agents came up on an individual who was lying down behind a fallen tree," Border Patrol spokesman Kris Grogan wrote Thursday in an email to the Burlington Free Press.

"Agents verbally ordered the individual to put his hands up. An agent observed the individual fail to comply with the verbal commands and aim what was determined to be a 20-gauge shotgun at him. The agent discharged his service-issued M-4, striking the individual, who died at the scene."

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/.../border-patrol-killing-richard-matt/29617141/


Both shootings of the inmates/escapees were justified

Sooo if he was laying down behind a tree, maybe he wasn't even alive at the time, since he didn't respond to their orders. Hmmm...Hmm...

 

[screecher]

I have no problem with Matt being shot dead. I also have no problem with Sweat being shot in the back...and if those shots to the back had killed him, I'd have no problem with that either.

As escaped murderers, they were a potential threat to anyone and everyone they came across. Neither surrendered, and if LE hadn't shot them, other people's lives would have been in danger.

They were convicted felons sentenced to life. As a consequence for committing their crimes, they forfeited many rights law abiding citizens enjoy. Inmates have rules they are required to follow while serving their time in prison, one of which is they cannot leave. And if they break that rule and sneak out, NY State law permits an officer to use deadly force. They didn't have to be armed...they didn't have to pose an imminent threat...by simply committing the crime of escape in the first degree, LE can use deadly force.

So regardless of the circumstances that led to Matt's death, LE did nothing wrong by taking him out. What I question though is the discrepancy in the details and why this discrepancy exists.

Actually, Matt was sentenced 25 - life. Sweat, sentenced to life. If NYS had the death penalty, Sweat would have been sentenced to death for killing a cop.

Also, there will always be discrepancy, never will you learn the details. Least not for next few decades.

 

[epiphany]

Sooo if he was laying down behind a tree, maybe he wasn't even alive at the time, since he didn't respond to their orders. Hmmm...Hmm...

Matt did respond to the orders: by aiming his rifle at an agent, prob the one who shot him dead.