NY NY - Ellery, Rte 17, WhtFem 30-37, UP15489 193UFNY, GSW, poss from Canada or Europe, note, clothes, Dec'83

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I contacted Doe Network. They answered to me that they passed it to LE after checks.
I cut the pear in two. I wanted to have further eyes pairs to judge before doing anything.

That's good, they'll know what to do about it and whether to act on it or not. :)

I don't believe in conspiracy theory.
If Doe Network passed my suggestion to LE after review, they have reasons for it.
If, after more research by LE, the apartheid theory is wrong, it's very ok for me.

Absolutely, I came off a bit too judging, that was not my intention. I meant that the theory is so out there, that I understand as to why someone would see it as a "conspiracy theory". I'm not meaning to call you nor I loonies, but I'm trying to keep an objective view of what this might seem like to someone dipping into the thread. I didn't know that most of the victims are unknown and unidentified, thank you for clearing that up. Then, it could make more sense to as to why the connection wouldn't have been made previously.
 
This is Doe Network's answer. Respectfully snipped for the sake of brevity & name redacted.

I have reviewed your email and discussed the information with our New York State Researcher, [name redacted]. After our review of your email we have decided to forward this information to a NamUs representative for their review as they are a branch of the Department of Justice. We have retained your email for any follow up on our end.I have included your contact information along with a copy of your email and will reach out to you if and when I receive any updates from them.
 
That's good, they'll know what to do about it and whether to act on it or not. :)
See my answer just above this one :)


Absolutely, I came off a bit too judging, that was not my intention. I meant that the theory is so out there, that I understand as to why someone would see it as a "conspiracy theory". I'm not meaning to call you nor I loonies, but I'm trying to keep an objective view of what this might seem like to someone dipping into the thread.
I understood so.

However, there are already links to Khulumani Support Group in this thread, and already quite a lot of info to better understand the context.
Unfortunately, I am unable to read Afrikaans, so English only.

I didn't know that most of the victims are unknown and unidentified, thank you for clearing that up. Then, it could make more sense to as to why the connection wouldn't have been made previously.
And if you look at the links provided earlier, you'd understood also much better the why and the how I come to such hypothesis.
You can't jump into such hypothesis without first understanding deeper the historical context of apartheid in the '70's-'80's. Otherwise, you can assume too quickly, for example, that "Whites weren't subject to police brutalities, especially abroad" when it's not true.
 
See my answer just above this one :)

And if you look at the links provided earlier, you'd understood also much better the why and the how I come to such hypothesis.
You can't jump into such hypothesis without first understanding deeper the historical context of apartheid in the '70's-'80's. Otherwise, you can assume too quickly, for example, that "Whites weren't subject to police brutalities, especially abroad" when it's not true.

I don't think that was the implication, but rather again the obscurity of the theory. Well, your idea was good and good that you decided to stay true to your hunch. Let's hope it helps them to solve this case and get this lady back to her family. It's long overdue.
 
I don't think that was the implication, but rather again the obscurity of the theory.
I understood it this way :)

But the theory is obscure if we don't have a deeper understanding of apartheid. If I stayed on my "I learnt about apartheid from my school teacher and the medias", I'd thought that the theory were obscure because of no blatant clue linking to apartheid.
Same if you talk to me about CIA torture when there is no explicit element. The theory is obscure for me because I lack the necessary knowledge to understand the why and the how.

Hope it's clearer now.


Well, your idea was good and good that you decided to stay true to your hunch. Let's hope it helps them to solve this case and get this lady back to her family. It's long overdue.
Now, let the experts do their job. I can't do more on Websleuths now.
 
Anti-apartheid activism was very big in the 1980s. In fact, it led to the US government passing the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act in 1986.
 
This is a very good motive for Pretoria regime to kill them.


As I stated earlier, I really wish you were right. I wish I agreed with you.
Unfortunately, per Khulumani Support Group, "she would had been identified already" is not true. It's a myth, not a fact.
Only a minority of assassinated victims have been identified. And Western countries are no different in this stance with apartheid victims. Because of the political interests involved.

Khulumani Support Group is not into conspiracy theory, far from it.

Now, as I said, if a closer exam by LE contradicts this hypothesis, I am fine with suc outcome.

I don't think you or anyone disagreeing with me is my enemy. Not at all.

However, thinking that "she would had been identified" is a myth. I wish it weren't, but alas !
I seem to have been unclear. I meant that if she was in an ordinary missing persons database or any of the more likely places we look, we would probably have found her by now. But we haven't, so we need to start looking for people who haven't been reported missing, who we might find in less likely places like a political movement.

I don't disagree with you at all. I think it was a good thing to follow up on.

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Giuc0 ,

Your theory is unique, and well organized. I understand that SA was (and is a disaster). I would suppose it's completely plausible that an execution could happen in the states.

However, there are hundreds of other cases where bodies are dumped, riddled with bullets, sans id, and even with European dental work..... they usually turn out to be the result of a bad relationship, revenge, drugs....

I'm equally sure that the police have access to foreigners that checked in with passports or visas, and didnt check out. I'm sure, this unidentified woman, has been checked against this list.

Another thing that makes this implausible, to me at least. Is that she would have family looking for her.... who would, through the police, be able to determine if she traveled to the US. It would be a matter of time until she was identified.

The lack of fingerprints, in a database suggest she wasn't a criminal, or employed by any governments.

The least surprising elements of her backstory (if she is identified) would be.

Broken family.
Parents dead, or unconcerned.
She probably had a broken marriage/relationship of her own.
Disassociated from her own children.
Picked up with some low life.
An argument occurred.
She was killed.
Married, to a serviceman (Canadian or US)
*it would not surprise me if there were another body, dumped somewhere else, in the general area, at that general time that is connected to this person.

Her purse and identification, is probably in the bottom of a river, or lake within 5 hours of her final resting spot, or burned, or carefully discarded somewhere else.

She, very well could be Canadian, or a dual citizen. Probably spent time on both sides of the border.

I'm thinking that the fact She was dumped on a busy road, for anyone to easily spot.... suggests she wasn't closely connected to the killer. Said another way.... Someone who knew they would be questioned about her whereabouts, probably would have simply driven off an exit, to a more secluded spot, where it would take, days, weeks or years to discover her remains - not hours.
 
Giuc0 ,

Your theory is unique, and well organized. I understand that SA was (and is a disaster). I would suppose it's completely plausible that an execution could happen in the states.

However, there are hundreds of other cases where bodies are dumped, riddled with bullets, sans id, and even with European dental work..... they usually turn out to be the result of a bad relationship, revenge, drugs....
Bullets, yes.
Bullet in her mouth, not so much.
The bullets themselves are not enough for thinking about the apatheid theory.

The bullets shot in face are typical of the regime.


Another thing that makes this implausible, to me at least. Is that she would have family looking for her.... who would, through the police, be able to determine if she traveled to the US. It would be a matter of time until she was identified.
Not so fast !

People missing because of apartheid are searched by their love one. However,
1) assuming a false ID for fleeing the regime, if so
2) people in organizations used a code name. Code name the love ones didn't know, and couldn't know.

People missing from apartheid are searched by their families, but with so few clues & all the cover-up, they don't find them.

US was not immune to this phenomena in apartheid activism.

I'm equally sure that the police have access to foreigners that checked in with passports or visas, and didnt check out. I'm sure, this unidentified woman, has been checked against this list
The Doe Network file says it was, and it didn't pan out.

However, keep in mind that record keeping, in those days, was not as precise and as complete as it is nowadays.

The lack of fingerprints, in a database suggest she wasn't a criminal, or employed by any governments.
It's a very US-centric reasoning.

In France, for example, people who were involuntarily committed were taken fingerprints without being arrested for a crime, let alone charged ! It was not entered in a national database, let alone international !
Fingerprint database were handwritten and paper stored. LE could only compare with a local database. You didn't have THE national and European database.
If you needed international checks, you only had Interpol. It was much smaller than it is now, thanks to the computering infancy. It didn't, and still doesn't, store people involuntarily institutionnalized, or people without a search warrant.

Also, in 1983, you had quite basic computers, and telex if you were lucky. Most of the time, you used typewriters and paper files.
DNA was not widely available.


Yes, LE may have ran their computer databases and asked Interpol over the time with the advance of technology.

However, we can't reason about record keeping in 1983 as if we would reason about an UID of, let say, two-three years ago.




The least surprising elements of her backstory (if she is identified) would be.

Broken family.
Parents dead, or unconcerned.
She probably had a broken marriage/relationship of her own.
Disassociated from her own children.
Picked up with some low life.
An argument occurred.
She was killed.
Married, to a serviceman (Canadian or US)
*it would not surprise me if there were another body, dumped somewhere else, in the general area, at that general time that is connected to this person.
I wish !!

However, nothing on the autopsy suggested any history of taking drugs. Even if we can't find what specific drugs, drug use leaves signs on the autopsy.
If she did pick up some low life, we would had stronger clues pointing to this.

The way she was dressed, her dental work doesn't suggest she was living a transient lifestyle.

A military, ok. But such an overkill for a husband ! Please !


These leads had been checked by LE, to no avail. When the usual leads don't pan out, we must change our method.


Her purse and identification, is probably in the bottom of a river, or lake within 5 hours of her final resting spot, or burned, or carefully discarded somewhere else.
It doesn't preclude the killing by the regime. Au contraire !

She, very well could be Canadian, or a dual citizen. Probably spent time on both sides of the border.
not enough clues for one way or another.

I'm thinking that the fact She was dumped on a busy road, for anyone to easily spot.... suggests she wasn't closely connected to the killer.
Killers linked to the regime did dump their bodies in similar ways.

Said another way.... Someone who knew they would be questioned about her whereabouts, probably would have simply driven off an exit, to a more secluded spot, where it would take, days, weeks or years to discover her remains - not hours.
The problem is that : not so much in killings linked by dictature.
 
I seem to have been unclear. I meant that if she was in an ordinary missing persons database or any of the more likely places we look, we would probably have found her by now. But we haven't, so we need to start looking for people who haven't been reported missing, who we might find in less likely places like a political movement.

I don't disagree with you at all. I think it was a good thing to follow up on.

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Thank you for clearing up the misunderstanding :)
 
I seem to have been unclear. I meant that if she was in an ordinary missing persons database or any of the more likely places we look, we would probably have found her by now. But we haven't, so we need to start looking for people who haven't been reported missing, who we might find in less likely places like a political movement.

I don't disagree with you at all. I think it was a good thing to follow up on.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

I think you are right...You can be almost 100% sure that we would have found her for we worked to the bone, looked in any available sources/databases and so did LE, as I understood. Let's wait and see if the theory that she might be an anti-apartheid victim works out. Far fetched, but stranger things have happened.
 
Call me crazy....there is something with the nose and her lips (cupido) and her chin seems to have a little dimple, also moles. Question is how did she end up on a road in Ellery without a pantyhose/legging, thights and shoes in wintertime (snowstorms, cold rain)

Wanted by the FBIDonna Jean Borup


Alias:Rebecca Ann Morgan, Donna Borup, Donna Austopchuk
Real DOB unknown, 1952 NY
Description
Date(s) of Birth Used

August 5, 1952, March 5, 1947, April 10, 1950 In 1983 31, 36, 33 years
Place of Birth
South Amboy, New Jersey
Hair
Brown (May be Graying)
Eyes
Brown or Blue
Height
5'4" to 5'6" UID was 5’4”
Weight
160 to 170 pounds UID had less weight 128 pounds
Sex
Female
Race
White
Occupation
Previously worked in graphic design and silkscreening
Nationality
American
Scars and Marks
None known

I could not find anything about her having a child/children. Donna seems to have

a scarf trought her eyebrow. UID has groomed eyebrows.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/breaking-news/index.ssf/2011/08/fbi_ask_for_help_in_finding_do.html






Reading this again, I still think she could be the one, or somebody else from her group (the 19th Communist Organization, a Marxist-Leninist Organization that advocated the armed revolution and violent overthrow of the United States government). I guess she would have been identified by now, being wanted by the FBI, having fingerprints. No idea how that works. Also can't find an European link and how would she get the iud not made in the USA.

The FBI said Donna Joan Borup, who has family ties to New Jersey and Pennsylvania, allegedly tossed an acidic substance at a Port Authority police officer during an anti-apartheid demonstration on Sept. 26, 1981, at JFK International Airport in New York.

The May 19 Communist Organization was active from 1978 to 1985. M19CO was a combination of the Black Liberation Army and the Weather Underground. It also included members of the Black Panthers and the Republic of New Africa (RNA).[SUP][/SUP]
 
Reading this again, I still think she could be the one, or somebody else from her group (the 19th Communist Organization, a Marxist-Leninist Organization that advocated the armed revolution and violent overthrow of the United States government). I guess she would have been identified by now, being wanted by the FBI, having fingerprints. No idea how that works. Also can't find an European link and how would she get the iud not made in the USA.

The FBI said Donna Joan Borup, who has family ties to New Jersey and Pennsylvania, allegedly tossed an acidic substance at a Port Authority police officer during an anti-apartheid demonstration on Sept. 26, 1981, at JFK International Airport in New York.

My problem is that the noses are very different. I don't see a resemblance in the noses.
 
My problem is that the noses are very different. I don't see a resemblance in the noses.

I don't know if she is Ellery Doe just saying maybe we have to also look in that direction.
 
I'm equally sure that the police have access to foreigners that checked in with passports or visas, and didnt check out. I'm sure, this unidentified woman, has been checked against this list.

(snipped for focus)

She, very well could be Canadian, or a dual citizen. Probably spent time on both sides of the border.

I'm thinking that the fact She was dumped on a busy road, for anyone to easily spot.... suggests she wasn't closely connected to the killer. Said another way.... Someone who knew they would be questioned about her whereabouts, probably would have simply driven off an exit, to a more secluded spot, where it would take, days, weeks or years to discover her remains - not hours.

In the eighties, the US-Canadian border was very open. There were checkpoints, but mainly they just asked "Are you an American citizen?" If not, you needed to show documentation, of course, but if said yes, they almost never checked. So no, there probably wouldn't be any information if she went back and forth across the Canadian border.

And I'm thinking that could be why her body was found where it was--if she was killed in Canada, they might have brought her body over the border to dispose of, counting on the international border to prevent her being traced back to wherever she came from. Now LE in both countries is much more aware of the problem, but back then it was like a brick wall.
 
What about the doe network dna project, could they mean something?
 
I hope that the DNA Doe Project could do her. She would be interesting especially because of the fact that she’s probably not from the USA. This would be one of her only chances.
 

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