NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #10

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@PeterBrendt

I am glad you joined WS and enjoy reading your thoughts and opinions.

People nowadays are so used to carry their whole lives in form of phone contacts, passwords, bank information and what not on their phones around, that in some situations, the question comes up, whether some would risk to bring the phone to a place where safety for all of that isn't ensured. And female risk-takers (which include prostitutes, but not only them) have a tendency to leave such information behind in a safe place. Half of Hanson's victims for example didn't even carry ID or driver's licenses. Because they didn't want to give someone a hint where their families lived in case ...

What are your thoughts about the taunting calls from Melissa Bartholemy's cell phone to her little sister by the alleged killer?

Thanks,

wm
 
@Truthspider:
The lie detector test on JB was inconclusive, I didn't hear anything about a lie detector test on CPH yet. Did I miss something? But anyway, how long is h in this medical state, he is in right now? Would he have the physical abilities to commit those murders in the first place? I admit to some confusion, when it comes to CPH, he appears to me like someone half-dirty accidentally caught in something dirtier. But then, what you wrote about the whole condo thing is really suspicious and could place him mentally near to the Manorville murders.
And in fact, even the numbers are generally too small for a real significant statistics, we find especially in cases of torso killers a higher number of doctors in the list (as in at least five other categories of sks). Doctors have another attitude to the nastinesses that come inevitable with dealing with dead bodies.

@Minazoe: I miss what you refer to. The killer killed, that is the only reason we talk about him on this board in the first place. But a sadist is not always just a sadist. There are a lot of psycho-pathological combinations, for example in connection narcissistic personality disorder (e.g Alcala), OCD (e.g. Dahmer), religious delusions (those appear as sadists in the victimology but are driven by other urges in fact) and so on (in fact, there are about fifty sub species of homicidal sadists known). Most of them would be able to kill any kind of victim, but would only perform sexual acts (and for torso killer dismembering has a sexual component) on those victims having a sexual attraction to them which is given by their sexual orientation.

@waltzingmathilda: In general, phone calls of SKs are of four symptom categories:

1.) The injection in the investigation. This is kind of the common knowledge thing we hear all the time at Criminal Minds and such, but in the reality it is quite rare and limited to certain types. Normally not torso killers because they use bodies and parts of them as statement, but for mission driven types and self-aggrandizers, it has happened (e.g. Jack the Ripper and Zodiac and to a degree Son of Sam)

2.) The sadist, who adds psychological torture to his crime to raise the stakes. Especially psychopathic sadists with additional symptoms of schizophrenia or dissociative personality disorder (type Bundy) have a tendency to taint and that can also include calls to family members if those have a lot of media attention.

3.) The attention hogs (again e.g. type Zodiac and also BTK) feel undervalued. They make calls or send letters, but mostly to media organizations like new papers or news agencies.

4.) The mission driven types feel sometimes urged to explain their deeds. This is especially common in the area of religious delusions (keep in mind, believing in human sacrifices to prevent earthquakes can be for such killers also be religious).

The problem is, most serial killer cases, I studied ended up with not one singular personality disorder but with a bunch of primary and secondary diagnoses. So it is possible and probably, phone calls can be driven by more than one of these 4 symptomatic urges. I would have to see a transcript of those phone calls to make it a little bit more water tight. From the first impression, based on the little details, I read as of yet, there are two cornerstones in those calls:

- The reference to the lifestyle
As in "your sister was a *advertiser censored*, you are a *advertiser censored*, the world is full of *advertiser censored* and this is, what you get for it". This is not sadistic, even it appears so. Comparisons with a group are always preaching, explaining and self-justifying. This is basically just saying "*advertiser censored* deserve to die and so I am justified to kill them" For those types, it is also justification for everything else, he does to the victims, including rape, because it allows to reduce them to mere pieces of meat.

- the references to sexual acts, he performed on her sister and implicitly threatened to do to her to.
This isn't a stand-alone, this is in it's interpretation consistent with the other cornerstone. There are a lot of cases known in which rape/sodomy/forced oral sex and such practices were not just for sex but primary to humiliate and punish the victims for their flaws, failures or just to establish control/power over them (we saw a lot of this in the Bundy and Hillside Strangler cases and even more often in cases of serial rapists). Regularly, if stand alone, such references would point to a narcissist/sadist type with a psychopathic mindset, however, together with the repeated references to the lifestyle, it feels more like "punishment" and "threat with punishment". Punishment includes of course always the right to punish and justification by the duty to punish. It is kind of a power play which serves rather to compensate for feelings of inferiority in the killer than the real sexual act in itself.
But be careful with that, I can base that only on some hunches because I have no transcripts of the complete phone calls.
 
Can we please give Jane Doe #6/UID a name now that she has a face? She deserves it- like "Princess LiLo" (for long island lolita)? or something... it's sad calling her jane Doe :(
 
just sort of an updated look at properties for sale at Oak Beach

8 the Fairway (Brewer)
10 the Fairway (the monsignor)
14 the Fairway (Oak Beach assoc'n)
37 The Bayou
44 The Bayou
31 Anchor Way
33 Anchor Way (the emer rm doc)
54 Larboard
57 Hawser
64 Hawser
85 Hawser
69 Savannah Walk
72 Savannah Walk
76 Savannah Walk
89 Savannah Walk

...just in case anyone else would like to research who is moving out/or has moved...
 
Look, SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) When questioning a suspect, a search warrant is the norm. If the POI gives cause for alarm, then they come back with a new search warrant , that is suspect. CHP IS NOT OUR GUY: GET OVER IT!!!!! Concentrate on the facts people!!!!
Why did SCPD give a press confrence? They put out some vital info...... they want to draw this guy out. He did slip up. They want HIM to respond....
 
Can we please give Jane Doe #6/UID a name now that she has a face? She deserves it- like "Princess LiLo" (for long island lolita)? or something... it's sad calling her jane Doe :(

Really. lolita? Do you know wat that word means,
Lolita [ˌlɒˈliːtə]
n
a sexually precocious young girl
[after the character in Nabokov's novel Lolita (1955)]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers
 
.,... They put out some vital info...... they want to draw this guy out. He did slip up. They want HIM to respond....

The fish already jumped right into the boat before the bait was even placed on the hook.
No one had to try very hard to "draw out" CPH, he jumped in head first every chance he got. The police are looking to connect the SK to a victim, they are hoping for an eye witness that can link the two.


Nugzter, these are the facts I stick to and everyone else should too:
He called the Gilbert family after the 911 call. He refuses to take a polygraph. He has had to declare bankruptcy as a results of 2 gross negligence cases against minors where the expert witness physician in the case ruled his actions as intentionally harmful to the minors. He has been addicted to drugs and has himself spent 2 years in a drug rehabilitation program. He spoke and lied to the media every time they were around, even though he could have driven right past them without stopping and rolling down his window to talk. He could have walked away into his house, instead of turning and walking a long distance to meet and talk to the media when they hounded him. He spoke to the producers of 48 hrs on at least 3 occasions (note that the other POIs were able to ignore requests from the show). He has injected himself into the situation and investigation multiple times since the beginning. No one else involved sought media attention and attempted to manipulate the investigation. He has lied to everyone about the phone calls, and his since reworked his story multiple times so that it appears legit. We shouldn't be so naive to believe the 3rd or 4th version of his description of the events.

If those FACTS don't give you "cause for alarm" than maybe amateur detective work isn't your forte. He smiles at you with that evil grin because he knows you are easily manipulated, and he feels smarter than you. Have you seen or heard of anyone else involved in this case smiling?

His ER & police work make him very qualified to leave "no evidence", so the police are trying to build a case using eye witnesses connecting him to 1 of the victims. This case isn't that complicated but some people won't be able to see it clearly until they see it in hindsight.

"When psychopaths are caught in a lie, they are rarely perplexed or embarrassed. Without hesitating, they will simply rework the tale so that it appears consistent" - from the encyclopedia on psychopaths
 
The fish already jumped right into the boat before the bait was even placed on the hook.
No one had to try very hard to "draw out" CPH, he jumped in head first every chance he got. The police are looking to connect the SK to a victim, they are hoping for an eye witness that can link the two.


Nugzter, these are the facts I stick to and everyone else should too:
He called the Gilbert family after the 911 call. He refuses to take a polygraph. He spoke and lied to the media every time they were around, even though he could have driven right past them without stopping and rolling down his window to talk. He could have walked away into his house, instead of turning and walking a long distance to meet and talk to the media when they hounded him. He spoke to the producers of 48 hrs on at least 3 occasions (note that the other POIs were able to ignore requests from the show). He has injected himself into the situation and investigation multiple times since the beginning. No one else involved sought media attention and attempted to manipulate the investigation. He has lied to everyone about the phone calls, and his since reworked his story multiple times so that it appears legit. We shouldn't be so naive to believe the 3rd or 4th version of his description of the events.

If those FACTS don't give you "cause for alarm" than maybe amateur detective work isn't your forte. He smiles at you with that evil grin because he knows you are easily manipulated, and he feels smarter than you. Have you seen or heard of anyone else involved in this case smiling?

His ER & police work make him very qualified to leave "no evidence", so the police are trying to build a case using eye witnesses connecting him to 1 of the victims. This case isn't that complicated but some people won't be able to see it clearly until they see it in hindsight.

"When psychopaths are caught in a lie, they are rarely perplexed or embarrassed. Without hesitating, they will simply rework the tale so that it appears consistent" - from the encyclopedia on psychopaths

Does anyone else here have any more facts to add? Please do. Does CPH have a false leg? Also, is there a thread that has all interviews and letters (if any) by this guy? I would like to watch them again.
 
Also, is it believed that CPH is responsible for the GB4 as well or just the disappearance of Shannon Gilbert? I can certainly understand the strong suspicion concerning Shannon for sure.
 
Dormer stated that she was last seen in late summer of 2000. Her remains were found in Nov. of 2000.

"Dormer revealed that Jane Doe No. 6 may have been last seen alive in the late summer of 2000. In addition, based on some of the other victims, they are considering the possibility that this woman worked as a prostitute."

So I should correct myself, Jane Dough #6 remains would have been dumped off ocean parkway between end of summer and November, assuming he dumped them around the time he dumped the torso in manorville.
Either way, her remains were dumped within 6 months of the statements CPH made about condo's being built in the area of the dump site.

But you are assuming her remains were dumped on gilgo around the same time they were dumped in manorville. I'm not sure this is a safe assumption, although its possible. He (or she) could have been storing the other parts somewhere for quite some time.

Another random thought, in the event that we do have more than one killer, don't you think it is very likely that in the process of discarding remains, one would have come across the other's work??? Being that all the dumps were so close in proximity...interesting.
 
Dormer stated that she was last seen in late summer of 2000. Her remains were found in Nov. of 2000.

"Dormer revealed that Jane Doe No. 6 may have been last seen alive in the late summer of 2000. In addition, based on some of the other victims, they are considering the possibility that this woman worked as a prostitute."

So I should correct myself, Jane Dough #6 remains would have been dumped off ocean parkway between end of summer and November, assuming he dumped them around the time he dumped the torso in manorville.
Either way, her remains were dumped within 6 months of the statements CPH made about condo's being built in the area of the dump site.

Question: How does Dormer know when the last time Jane Doe #6 was seen if he doesn't even who she is?
 
Does anyone else here have any more facts to add? Please do. Does CPH have a false leg?

Yes, the prosthetic leg was verified from a photo that many users here on WS saw. It is fairly visible in the videos of him walking as well. The local rumor in oak beach is that he lost his leg in a traumatic car accident, someone said that he was helping a motorist on the side of the road and was struck. The only verified part is the prosthetic leg itself.

Another fact I didn't mention is that he has worked in Riverhead just a few miles past the Manorville sites. Note that Manorville is a good distance from Oak Beach, so his connection to these disparate locations is relevant.



definitions:

"Trauma (medicine), an often serious and body-altering physical injury, such as the removal of a limb."

"Hickey's Trauma Control Model explains how early childhood trauma can set the child up for deviant behavior in adulthood..... This need for approval is what influences children to attempt to develop social relationships with their family and peers, but if they are rejected or neglected, they are unable to do so. This results in the lowering of their self-esteem and helps develop their fantasy world in which they are in control. Hickey's Trauma Control Model clearly shows that the development of a serial killer is based on an early trauma followed by facilitators (*advertiser censored*, drugs, and alcohol) and disposition (the inability to attach)."

You should decide for yourself, but this is a textbook/classic case in my opinion.
 
Question: How does Dormer know when the last time Jane Doe #6 was seen if he doesn't even who she is?

I wonder the same Sistah. My guess is that there was perhaps human tissue on the torso when she was found in 2000 and the ME could tell the amt of time her body had been there by the decomp. Also, Dormer said she MAY had been last seen in the late summer of 2000 so I think he was speculating a bit to hopefully trigger a loved one's or friends memory.

But this is just me speculating.:twocents:

wm
 
Pardon me while while I type out loud here:

Initially with early information pertaining to the phone call I thought CPH was set up. He does fit in my projected age range of the sk but I was stumped *chuckles to my self* by the prosthetic leg aspect. One can't run very fast after a young thing...a hysterical young thing at that. My mind goes back to the Green River Killer. He was twerpy and somebody that could be easily kicked in the throat if he tried anything crazy, yet, he was successful at least 49 times. I'm sure quite a few women could have beat the crap out of him--BUT--he would always have intercourse from behind which gave him leverage to strangle them with his forearm. That was his advantage with his twerpy self. So back to CPH...he would barely beat a turtle in a 3 meter dash...what rouse does he have that would give him the advantage over those women? Also, a body is quite heavy even if the person weighed 110 lbs in life. Wouldn't carrying dead weight affect the ability to maneuver with a prosthetic leg? He definitely needed more time than the average sk who has all of his limbs. He sure has a leg up on me with that one. *chuckles again* (Excuse me, but sometimes I just gotta crack myself up.) I strongly believe that the sk has other dumping grounds. I strongly believe that the sk is responsible for the Manorville, Gilgo Beach and AC murders. CPH does strike me as somebody who would go to AC to gamble. Those 4 women were dumped at the same time. How was he able to do all of that with that damn fake leg? And where would his other dumping site be? The torso of the victim whose legs were found in 1996 is still missing. I believe it is elsewhere with other bodies and Shannon will probably be found there too. He hides bodies out in the open meaning they are basically hidden in front of our face. Also, could he be accouted for in the hours and even a few days after Shannon went missing? He put her somewhere, didn't he? Did he coax her back to his house that night? Did he think that it was possible that somebody may have saw him with her and that is why he felt the need to call the family to explain some things but then realized afterwards that the phone call probably wasn't necessary? If he took her to his house and strangled her how was he able to transport her dead weighted body into a car or truck and then dump her? I am strongly assuming the body was in tact because I'm strongly assuming that his house was searched by LE and had he dismembered her...he had enough time to clean up all of that mess with that damn leg? There would be times he would have to get down on his hands and knees to do a thorough job. Where was his wife?

*sigh* I'm just stumped.
 
Lol!!! You are cracking me up too, Sistah! I love it when you type out loud.:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

I needed that laugh in the midst of this sobering subject matter.

Irt CPH, I guess it would be easier for a disabled person to dispose of a body if it were dismembered. Could CPH have had a clinic back then where he did such things in private? (Truthspider was inquiring about a hospital where he worked in the past a page or two upthread, BTW.) If he had such a place of privacy in the past, maybe he doesn't have it anymore. Therefore, he had to evolve and change his disposal method to burlap sacks. (MOO but I think the ladies were placed in sacks as opposed to being wrapped for easier disposal.)
I read on someone's blog mentioned that the bodies were close enough to the road that a vehicle could pull off and open the passenger door and dump the bodies into the brush. Not sure how reliable a source this is...

http://bayridgejournal.blogspot.com/2011/01/body-dump-at-gilgo-beach.html

~snipped~

Police surmised that the killer drove up, opened the opposite car door and dumped each body into the brush.

Last I heard, CPH's wife is a nurse and works third shift but that is just RUMOR because I cannot verify the info.

CPH is not my only suspect but I have him pegged :innocent: at the top of my ladder at this time. all MOO.


wm
 
Oh my, that was a lot of stuff over night. Let me just some points pick out that triggered my attention (and because it's long, I take the freedom to split it in several posts):

- Hickey's Trauma Control Model
Hickey is like MacDonald an attempt to explain and at that, rather a theory. I am always very careful with such things because, as most theories in that field, they have three little glitches:
a.) They are based on statistics and individual interviews. Which don't put in consideration that the statistical studies are all focused on sexual predators and ignored any other motivations from the scratch. But even more, the individual interview part is prone to failure. We have seen that with the MacDonald Triad. Profilers handed caught SKs a questionnaire which also included the question for bed wetting beyond the age of 12. And the brighter ones said yes, preparing their insanity defenses, while the dumber ones said no because they wouldn't admit to it due to self-esteem reasons. It took 25 years to figure out, that most of the answers were intentionally wrong, which makes 1/3 of the triad worthless, but still a lot of people read about, don't know the backgrounds and go for it. Hickey on the other hand, starts with the assumption, that the in numbers not big enough base set of statistics would be complete and thus implemented involuntary in his work the LE's focus on sex as main driving source for all SKs, which, as we know today, is an incomplete picture. Hickey also made no difference between traumata during the development and permanent traumatic situations over phases of the development.

b.) Most of such models (not only Hickey) rely on a simplified use of words which has sneaked into the amateur area as well. Due to that, there is usually the term "control" or "urge to control" mentioned in SK cases. Nobody uses the nice word "power" anymore. But there is a fundamental difference between "power-assurance" behavior and "control-assurance behavior". Many SKs swing, depending on their outer life circumstances forth and back. Ted Bundy delivered a nice example. In times, his outer life was okay for him, he strangled and took a lot of time for control-assurance. In times, his outer life was a little harder, he beat his victims to death and the time he kept them to play for control was shorter (in fact, he abducted at least one victim in a situation, it was clear from the start, he couldn't keep her long, which indicates, his urge for power was primary in that phase).
Another simplified word use is "psychopath" and "sociopath". Mostly, both words, nowadays are, driven by popular literature and TV shows, used alternatively. But in fact, there are some differences. What MacDonald would identify would be, at best, a psychopath in the making. A sociopath is merely anti-social-personality disorder without the connected rage (which doesn't mean, a sociopath is a nice picture if you give him other reasons to kill). The difficult part is, if you go for casual behavioral markers, psychopath and sociopath in daily life have some similar traits. But if you got yourself a real psychopath, you got a killer, if you got a sociopath, it is highly likely, you got someone with a lack of emotional social understanding but no killer. For profiling, a mere sociopath would need an additional outer pressure to become a killer, only the psychopath comes as full package.

c.) Hickey puts in the middle of his theory the principles of acknowledgement and approval in the social environment a child grows up in. This means often family. While I freely admit, there is something in it, it doesn't appear as complete. There are millions of people, who had a not so lucky childhood (Hickey focuses on childhood traumata, he leaves later adult time traumata out of the equation anyway). I admitted it in other places, but my dad had no problem with alcohol, only without. And I assure you, it wasn't a nice sight, including some degree of violence. Fine, I grew up, and so did my brothers. None of us ever murdered someone (military action doesn't count here). And there are millions world wide. Most of them don't become killers, only a handful does. And Hickey ignores that numeric relationship of millions to one and claims, basically people who were negelcted and rejected in childhood, people who were confronted with violence, are basically all prone to become killers. So, personally I like to send some of those popular theories back to the drawing board.
 
So I was thinking back and I remember hearing something about CPH traveling out of state right after SG's disappearance. I'm not sure if this information was ever substantiated but does anyone remember where he supposedly went and why?
 
Truthspider is the advocate for the one killer solution and everything is so easy. I am rather a stickler in behavioral details and patterns and thus can't go over that "easy" bridge when behavioral patterns are that different.
When it comes to Manorville, I mentioned already the theory of a male killer and a possibly female subdominant partner. Note, that subdominant and submissive are not necessarily the same. I came to that idea because the Manorville Torso Killer had at least in one case access to the private life of a victim or he wouldn't have got access to the child to kill the girl. And as I wrote earlier, that torso killers have a higher number of medical professionals in their ranks than most other SK categories. That doesn't mean, it's exclusive.
That means, technically, CPH could be Manorville. At this point, I can't exclude this idea. But I can't exclude it for the GB4, which are in the core of the LISK2 case. Because he wouldn't be able to fetch a body from a vehicle and carry it down on the beach, pressing on through the bushes to drop the bodies where they were found. It's only a few steps, but steps that demand a little balance and some physical strength.
However driving speculation a bit further, my impression is, CPH is dirty with something entirely different. Remember, Brewer "invited" Gilbert to his house and all points out, Gilbert later was on a really bad trip. It is unlikely, a prostitute would bring more than for her own use to a client, she wouldn't bring a fully blown stash to party. So, it was Brewer's stash. And in cases of people with money and basically a raised lifestyle, it is always a good idea to look around in the neighborhood for someone with access to prescription blocks and medical contacts when it comes to drug supplies. So my guess is, CPH was the local vendor and when Gilbert was running, Brewer called Hatchett because he was afraid, Gilbert had overdosed it. Maybe they found her, maybe not. We don't know. But for sure, the need would have come up to wash themselves clean, especially since they couldn't be sure who had noticed something. And Hatchett, who wasn't an especially good liar, caught himself in the spiral between bad lies and over-self-esteem. By all means, he couldn't just say: "I am the local drug dealer and provided Brewer with bad stuff, this Gilbert girl used in a too high dose."
On a side note: Psychopaths are normally even better lairs that sociopaths and we talk here, given the IQ range, about the the top end of liars. Yes, a psychopath caught in a lie would remake his story if he is caught in a lie. But most of the time, they are not caught in lies because they are good at that. Much better than CPH ever was.
 
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