NY-Long Island-4 bodies on Beach-Possible Serial Killer-Dec 2010 #2

[Soulmagent]

I wouldn't read too much symbolism into the burlap bags. That is veering off into crime fiction. (James Patterson.)

Most likely the burlap is just handy for him and somehow related to his trade. Fisherman, clamdigger, landscaper, import-export business.

I would mostly agree in lots of cases, However the facing of the east in the AC murders and the sets of 4 being together(not alone in death) I really dont think we should write it off that quickly. Serial killers often do have quirks which they draw on from some belief of something.

What does the placement of the bodies mean and where and how they are facing, and the spacing? It doesnt sound like he was just ditching the bodies to only get rid of evidence. It seems he is saying something in his actions of disposel. His choice of victims may have something to do with his veiws as well.

The story of religious Babylon.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_08.html

 

[chemcopout]

I don't know Scandi.... He might have evolved since AC and added a new level to his MO. Four bodies of girls who worked in the sex industry, murdered and left spaced equally apart is pretty much all we know for sure right now. I wish we knew if the Long Island bodies were left facing East. I would almost bet they were.....

this is the only way i could see a connection between these and the ac ones.
he learned to take off every personal item from the victims.

he seems to kill methodically. on the other thread or awhile back i had posted the originals of burlap, hessian cloth, and if we could figure out why he is killing them, possibly he was raised a strict catholic and thinks of these girls as sinners?

i know they are working with bones with all they've found thus far, so i'd guess they'd have been there much longer than a month, being the cold winter we've had.
does anyone have a link that these l.i. girls were facing east?

as for daytona, i doubt they're linked, imo. there are a lot of sks in the usa working at one time.

at first i didn't think ac could be related, yet the only way would be if he did evolve and perfect his methods. (leaving none of the girls personal affects) makes them harder to id and less likely for le to find any fibers, dna, etc that could connect the killer.

if the killer is mission oriented, he would feel he's ridding the world of those of which he deems "undesirable". if it is the case, the killer has a delusion that he is actually doing good by ridding of these people.

if he is killing under his own delusions (which might not likely be noticeable to others) then it's not likely he'll stop.

 

[Verity]

You're right Verity. I was thinking more along the lines of "if the murders occurred on the North Shore/Fork area of LI, would a perp drive all the way down to OP to dispose of bodies?" In my mind, the answer is no, and there are other out-of-the way places up north more convenient to dump bodies.

That makes sense!

Now, my interest has been piqued by someone mentioning highway worker. Those trucks that trim the brush and mow the grass along parkways have burlap sacks. :waitasec:

Is the town of Babylon in charge of this roadway and patch of brush? hmm.... going to do more work.

Hmmmm...whoever mows the apron of the roads....that's a good suggestion. They must be mowed, and that would also be a seasonal job and start around beginning of May. Gilgo is a State park, so is Jones Beach, so they would be all State workers who mow the grass and all State troopers who patrol the roads. It may be part of the Township of Babylon, but on LI, each to their own, This means to say that Community Association beaches are maintained by homeowners in the community, and Town roads, beaches and parks by Town highway department, and County roads, beaches and parks by County workers and State roads, beaches and parks by State workers. If there's a County park located on a State road, the park is maintained by the County and the road is maintained by the State. Meadowbook Parkway and Seaford Oyster Bay Expressway I think are are County, whereas Wantagh, Robert Moses, Southern State and Ocean Parkway are all State roads. This needs verification, but fairly sure that's correct.

Carbuff, not sure about campgrounds. I will look into it. I know for a fact that there are 3 or 4 near Montauk in Smith Point and Hither Hills, not familiar with any near Oak Beach. Checking into it now.

Camps grounds don't get me excited, sorry, I think the timing is off. Trailer parks, yes, but I don't think there are any there, and highly unlikely they would open campgrounds before Memorial day. I keep going back to the May 1st victim - if she went missing then, she had to be stored somewhere until the campground opened? Doesn't make sense.

I also like the atonement in burlap shroud concept - I think that could well be symbolic. Sorry I can't remember who posted a couple of these points, thread is moving so fast.....SCPD have said they will also be searching Wednesday tomorrow - it's on their FB page - http://www.facebook.com/SuffolkPD

 

[RIGHTEOUS1]

Where are all the Computer Geeks? they should at least be able to say if it's possible to back track this guy through CL!

 

[chemcopout]

The name "Babylon" is interesting symbolically, considering the role of prostitution in this case and the possible "mortification of the flesh" connotation of the burlap. I'll see what else I can find about it.

i posted links to all this in an earlier thread. i'll see if i can find them.

imo, i think this guy comes from money. what is he going to do is something messes up his plans? these are high priced girls, they get delivered to you.
if something were too go wrong, he'd have to pay for it. not to mention some of them had pimps, so they'd get paid cash.

he can't just not pay. the last thing he wants to do is draw attention to himself.

dumping the bodies in an area where they now have been found is anonymous attention. that would be okay with him.

someone seeing his face and being able to identify him would not be okay.

imo, he comes from money, has it, and is older late 30-40's. his family may even have money. they could have a summer place on the island, and he'd have access to it whenever he wants. it might not necessarily be under his own name, maybe another relative's.

these girls aren't street type working girls. they have rich clientele, doctors, policians, police officers etc. these people have money to afford them. so likely the killer blends into this category of wealth.

 

[chemcopout]

03-28-2011, 03:04 AM
chemcopout's Avatar
chemcopout chemcopout is online now
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North East United States
Posts: 420
as far as the gunny sacks; burlap is concerned, when i was younger i had friends who had a chinese take out food business, and i do remember that they did use burlap (among other things) to transport some of their foods.
the would get the food from chinatown, then bring it back upstate here a bit to their house prior to bringing it to their restaurant.

that burlap is porous and does desintegrate, it's an interesting choice for the killer to use it.

in a way, if the killer was messy, he could risk the bags leaking into his vehicle. why not use plastic, then if one was to dump a body, dump them naked, then later burn the plastic?

burlap seems to have a history, it's also known as hessian and was first imported from india in the early 19th century

Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
" title="Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" target="_blank">Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian_ Hessian_
%28cloth%29
this is where it gets really interesting:

"Due to its coarse texture, it is not commonly used in modern apparel. However, this roughness gave it a use in a religious context for mortification of the flesh, where individuals may wear an abrasive shirt called a cilice or "hairshirt" and in the wearing of "sackcloth" on Ash Wednesday."

ash wednesday being catholic religion (the beginning of lent). nowadays catholics who practice just get the ashes on the forehead, no burlap sackclothes.

here is a link that mentions repentence and the usage of sackcloth (burlap) in the catholic religion throughout the years:

http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...iew.cfm?id=262
(the above link is very interesting, if it's possible our killer is a catholic and very religious)

"In the Middle Ages (at least by the time of the eighth century), those who were about to die were laid on the ground on top of sackcloth sprinkled with ashes..."

"About the year 1000, an Anglo-Saxon priest named Aelfric preached: "We read in the books, both in the Old Law and in the New, that the men who repented of their sins bestrewed themselves with ashes and clothed their bodies with sackcloth..."

now to define cilice,

"A cilice (pronounced /ˈsɪlɨs/) was originally a garment or undergarment made of coarse cloth or animal hair (a hairshirt) used in some religious traditions to induce some degree of discomfort or pain as a sign of repentance and atonement"

so burlap seems to have quite the history.

what my question is, why is the killer killing these girls? is it that he thinks they are sinners? does he have a deep seated hatred for women in general? is this due to his upbringing or possibly an exgf? is the killer religious?

is he a mission oriented type serial killer? this is the type who believes that he/she is ridding the world of a specific type of person they consider "undesirable".


when police had originally found the first girl, they did a search and found the others. i remember it being mentioned that they were each found say 500 yards apart from one another.

so i would guess it's impossible the killer used one bag for one or more of the girls, as they were each found 500 yards apart from eachother.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/bodies-...2399090&page=2

the article also mentions that the killer didn't bury them.

that this killer has gone back to this area again and again to dump bodies shows that he knows the area, he knew it would take awhile for them to be found. he very knowledgable and comfortable about coming back to dump them.
since they were each found about 500 yards apart, almost makes me think he was spacing them apart by mile markers on purpose.

now imo, i don't think these are related to the 4 girls killed in atlantic city, however i don't know.

the 4 in ac were found within 320 feet of one another facedown in inches of water, all had clothes on Except they were all barefoot. all were blondes.

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/11/27/...antic-city.htm

sorry about the long post here. i don't mean to take the angle that the killer might be a type of extremely religious killer, however the mentioning of sackcloth (burlap) got me thinking... it is possible that maybe the killer is the mission oriented type.
Reply With Quote

 

[Soulmagent]

NYC state park links.

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/default.aspx?tab=2

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/park-results.aspx?r=9&src=2

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/65/getting-there.aspx

 

[~Lisa~]

Steve C.? on HLN just said...
There is an electronic footprint out there somewhere.

 

[svpernin]

Another rumor going around that 3 of the new bodies have been ID'ed. Awaiting confirmation...

 

[MsFacetious]

Wow.

I am actually relieved that none of these bodies are Shannan. Not that I think she is alive, but at least they will keep looking. They seem to plan on searching until they find Shannan and then be done with it.

I think reports (including HLN's headline) that they identified the last 3 bodies are incorrect. All they did is eliminate Shannan as being one of them.

I think once again... HLN is responsible for starting the rumor, just like the one about the 9th body. Hopefully they HAVE been identified. But that would be amazingly fast and highly unlikely.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shannan-gilbert-bodies-linked-long-island-beach-serial/story?id=13303092

 

[RIGHTEOUS1]

How long did it take to id the first four {man that sounds bad} bodies?

 

[Verity]

NYC state park links.

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/default.aspx?tab=2

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/park-results.aspx?r=9&src=2

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/65/getting-there.aspx

Thanks Soulmagent, so that takes care of who maintains the park.

The road is maintained by the State according to this - https://www.nysdot.gov/portal/pls/p...TI.show?p_arg_names=p_pin&p_arg_values=080852

I imagine the Federal funding for this project (off-topic) is stimulus money. Still looking for the mowing departments.....

Now we just need to figure out who does the mowing.

 

[Soulmagent]

03-28-2011, 03:04 AM
chemcopout's Avatar
chemcopout chemcopout is online now
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: North East United States
Posts: 420
as far as the gunny sacks; burlap is concerned, when i was younger i had friends who had a chinese take out food business, and i do remember that they did use burlap (among other things) to transport some of their foods.
the would get the food from chinatown, then bring it back upstate here a bit to their house prior to bringing it to their restaurant.

that burlap is porous and does desintegrate, it's an interesting choice for the killer to use it.

in a way, if the killer was messy, he could risk the bags leaking into his vehicle. why not use plastic, then if one was to dump a body, dump them naked, then later burn the plastic?

burlap seems to have a history, it's also known as hessian and was first imported from india in the early 19th century

Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
" title="Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" target="_blank">Hessian (cloth) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hessian_ Hessian_
%28cloth%29
this is where it gets really interesting:

"Due to its coarse texture, it is not commonly used in modern apparel. However, this roughness gave it a use in a religious context for mortification of the flesh, where individuals may wear an abrasive shirt called a cilice or "hairshirt" and in the wearing of "sackcloth" on Ash Wednesday."

ash wednesday being catholic religion (the beginning of lent). nowadays catholics who practice just get the ashes on the forehead, no burlap sackclothes.

here is a link that mentions repentence and the usage of sackcloth (burlap) in the catholic religion throughout the years:

http://www.catholicculture.org/cultu...iew.cfm?id=262
(the above link is very interesting, if it's possible our killer is a catholic and very religious)

"In the Middle Ages (at least by the time of the eighth century), those who were about to die were laid on the ground on top of sackcloth sprinkled with ashes..."

"About the year 1000, an Anglo-Saxon priest named Aelfric preached: "We read in the books, both in the Old Law and in the New, that the men who repented of their sins bestrewed themselves with ashes and clothed their bodies with sackcloth..."

now to define cilice,

"A cilice (pronounced /ˈsɪlɨs/) was originally a garment or undergarment made of coarse cloth or animal hair (a hairshirt) used in some religious traditions to induce some degree of discomfort or pain as a sign of repentance and atonement"

so burlap seems to have quite the history.

what my question is, why is the killer killing these girls? is it that he thinks they are sinners? does he have a deep seated hatred for women in general? is this due to his upbringing or possibly an exgf? is the killer religious?

is he a mission oriented type serial killer? this is the type who believes that he/she is ridding the world of a specific type of person they consider "undesirable".


when police had originally found the first girl, they did a search and found the others. i remember it being mentioned that they were each found say 500 yards apart from one another.

so i would guess it's impossible the killer used one bag for one or more of the girls, as they were each found 500 yards apart from eachother.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/bodies-...2399090&page=2

the article also mentions that the killer didn't bury them.

that this killer has gone back to this area again and again to dump bodies shows that he knows the area, he knew it would take awhile for them to be found. he very knowledgable and comfortable about coming back to dump them.
since they were each found about 500 yards apart, almost makes me think he was spacing them apart by mile markers on purpose.

now imo, i don't think these are related to the 4 girls killed in atlantic city, however i don't know.

the 4 in ac were found within 320 feet of one another facedown in inches of water, all had clothes on Except they were all barefoot. all were blondes.

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/11/27/...antic-city.htm

sorry about the long post here. i don't mean to take the angle that the killer might be a type of extremely religious killer, however the mentioning of sackcloth (burlap) got me thinking... it is possible that maybe the killer is the mission oriented type.
Reply With Quote

Yes this has been a theme thoughout the thread . Read the quoted text on this link. It is very interesting , when you put this location ,possible vantage points and religious veiws into the the possible motives into context of how the text could be read.

Not saying it means anything but how crazy.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6071810&postcount=420"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6071810&postcount=420[/ame]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6071810&postcount=420"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6071810&postcount=420[/ame]

 

[svpernin]

Wow.

I am actually relieved that none of these bodies are Shannan. Not that I think she is alive, but at least they will keep looking. They seem to plan on searching until they find Shannan and then be done with it.

I think reports (including HLN's headline) that they identified the last 3 bodies are incorrect. All they did is eliminate Shannan as being one of them.

I think once again... HLN is responsible for starting the rumor, just like the one about the 9th body. Hopefully they HAVE been identified. But that would be amazingly fast and highly unlikely.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shannan-gilbert-bodies-linked-long-island-beach-serial/story?id=13303092

Thanks for this. I wasn't sure where that rumor got started but it makes sense that it was on HLN once again. They need to slow their roll. It took over a month for the first four to be id'ed publicly.

 

[goathairjones]

chemcopout,

I believe something must have happened between the time the driver shows up at JB's house and SG bangs on Gus Colleti's door. But it all doesn't make sense. She was on the phone with the police. But then when she bangs on Colleti's door and he says he is going to call the police, She freaks out. And when the Asian guy in the surburban shows up, he also tells Coletti that he should not have called the police. I wish LE would be more forthcoming with what happened in Oak Beach that night.

I'm getting a creepy feeling here that there is a lot more involved here than prostitution. I'm thinking drug trafficking and maybe some gang or mafia activity. I don't know why I think that. It just seems like there is so much more info that we are not getting.

 

[Soulmagent]

Thanks Soulmagent, so that takes care of who maintains the park.

The road is maintained by the State according to this - https://www.nysdot.gov/portal/pls/p...TI.show?p_arg_names=p_pin&p_arg_values=080852

I imagine the Federal funding for this project (off-topic) is stimulus money. Still looking for the mowing departments.....

Now we just need to figure out who does the mowing.

Maybe these people? I cant say for sure. N/M they do the park.

http://nysparks.state.ny.us/environment/environmental-management.aspx

 

[Verity]

Note sure I'm getting anywhere here, but FWIW: https://www.nysdot.gov/divisions/engineering/design/landscape/trees/rs_mowing

And this one for the campground folks - more info: http://nysparks.state.ny.us/camping/documents/NYCampingGuide.pdf
I have run out of time for today, hope this helps, will be interested to see how this develops.

In the meantime, I'll be praying for justice for all these women and the safety of those who are still vulnerable to this monster.

 

[Verity]

Quick add because I didn't see anyone else post this from the FB page (sorry if duplicated):
Suffolk County Police Department
Gilgo Beach Investigation: Tips regarding the Gilgo Beach homicide investigation can telephoned in anonymously to 1-800-220-TIPS or emailed in anonymously to https://www.tipsubmit.com/webtipsstart.aspx. Rewards may be available!

 

[MsFacetious]

Nancy again tonight:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/nancy.grace/

How long did it take to id the first four {man that sounds bad} bodies?

To be precise the first body was found December 11.

First woman was publicly identified January 19.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...prostitute_megan_waterman_idd_as_one_of_.html

 

[RIGHTEOUS1]

i posted links to all this in an earlier thread. i'll see if i can find them.

imo, i think this guy comes from money. what is he going to do is something messes up his plans? these are high priced girls, they get delivered to you.
if something were too go wrong, he'd have to pay for it. not to mention some of them had pimps, so they'd get paid cash.

he can't just not pay. the last thing he wants to do is draw attention to himself.

dumping the bodies in an area where they now have been found is anonymous attention. that would be okay with him.

someone seeing his face and being able to identify him would not be okay.

imo, he comes from money, has it, and is older late 30-40's. his family may even have money. they could have a summer place on the island, and he'd have access to it whenever he wants. it might not necessarily be under his own name, maybe another relative's.

these girls aren't street type working girls. they have rich clientele, doctors, policians, police officers etc. these people have money to afford them. so likely the killer blends into this category of wealth.

I find this interesting, it gives LE a group of people to talk to. They might not want to talk to LE but it is something. This guy has had to have a girl more then once who he didn't kill, she had a escort with Her, a driver close by. Sometimes even Boyfriends go along to watch out for bad apples. It is a shady business but we know how he has found the girls, online. LE has to do the same. Check if any girls went out to that area.