OH - Kathryn, 54, & James Stockdale, 21, shot to death, Stark Co., 15 June 2017

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Tillicum said:
Okay I will tell you about bluegrass playing since both my late father and husband are some of the best. When playing an instrument, it's very common to make expressions with the mouth or eyes without realizing it. I've known many who attempt to keep a straight face while playing rather than make what appear to be awkward faces. I've always thought it was funny to compare their somber faces to the fast foot stomping.
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I call that the "music face". Many genres of music cause that when the piece isn't is challenging.
 
Tillicum said:
Okay I will tell you about bluegrass playing since both my late father and husband are some of the best. When playing an instrument, it's very common to make expressions with the mouth or eyes without realizing it. I've known many who attempt to keep a straight face while playing rather than make what appear to be awkward faces. I've always thought it was funny to compare their somber faces to the fast foot stomping.
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Ha, so true! I'm a trad fiddler (which is probably why this case is tugging at my heart) and we're always laughing about the faces people pull.

We trad musicians tend to feel a family-like connection to each other regardless of our particular genres. I don't play bluegrass - I'm mainly into Scottish, Irish and Cape Breton music - but it all takes a lot of hard work to bring fresh energy to the music while still remaining true and "authentic" to the style.

It's easy to mistake some facial expressions as a sign of unhappiness when in reality we're simply focused on the tune. And having fun, honest!. Some Irish session players tend to stare at the floor with deadpan faces and I know a guitar player who always looks like a chipmunk just ran up his pants leg.
:giggle:
 
MsMarple said:
Ha, so true! I'm a trad fiddler (which is probably why this case is tugging at my heart) and we're always laughing about the faces people pull.

We trad musicians tend to feel a family-like connection to each other regardless of our particular genres. I don't play bluegrass - I'm mainly into Scottish, Irish and Cape Breton music - but it all takes a lot of hard work to bring fresh energy to the music while still remaining true and "authentic" to the style.

It's easy to mistake some facial expressions as a sign of unhappiness when in reality we're simply focused on the tune. And having fun, honest!. Some Irish session players tend to stare at the floor with deadpan faces and I know a guitar player who always looks like a chipmunk just ran up his pants leg.
:giggle:
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your post and others who commented on facial expressions makes much sense. I do recall that the violin players in our school programs were always less able to make expressive faces, keeping their chins on the instrument and concentrating. And myself, I never was fond of playing in public, so I probably came across as a sad faced little girl. Thank you all for these explanations.
 
I totally disagree with the blame being placed on the victim. The murderer is responsible for the murders. My dad was raised on a farm with no TV. He had to help on his parents' farm, like countless other children in rural areas. If that's all it took to drive this murderer to insanity, then he probably already had a mental illness. From what we know so far, there weren't daily beatings or sexual assaults. They just weren't coddled or indulged as kids. A hundred years ago it would have been normal not to be allowed to date and yet there wasn't an epidemic of people slaughtering their younger siblings and mothers. Are we to believe that imposing this restriction now drives one to lunacy because everyone else gets to do it? At any rate, he was 25! Barring some sort of mental disease or defect, an adult would know that not listening to Mommy is an option, while killing her is not.
 
SpookyKid said:
I totally disagree with the blame being placed on the victim. The murderer is responsible for the murders. My dad was raised on a farm with no TV. He had to help on his parents' farm, like countless other children in rural areas. If that's all it took to drive this murderer to insanity, then he probably already had a mental illness. From what we know so far, there weren't daily beatings or sexual assaults. They just weren't coddled or indulged as kids. A hundred years ago it would have been normal not to be allowed to date and yet there wasn't an epidemic of people slaughtering their younger siblings and mothers. Are we to believe that imposing this restriction now drives one to lunacy because everyone else gets to do it? At any rate, he was 25! Barring some sort of mental disease or defect, an adult would know that not listening to Mommy is an option, while killing her is not.
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Lots of things were different a hundred years ago. Lots of things were accepted a hundred years ago which are not accepted now. I think that these parent's went far and above 'not coddling'.
 
SpookyKid said:
I totally disagree with the blame being placed on the victim. The murderer is responsible for the murders. My dad was raised on a farm with no TV. He had to help on his parents' farm, like countless other children in rural areas. If that's all it took to drive this murderer to insanity, then he probably already had a mental illness. From what we know so far, there weren't daily beatings or sexual assaults. They just weren't coddled or indulged as kids. A hundred years ago it would have been normal not to be allowed to date and yet there wasn't an epidemic of people slaughtering their younger siblings and mothers. Are we to believe that imposing this restriction now drives one to lunacy because everyone else gets to do it? At any rate, he was 25! Barring some sort of mental disease or defect, an adult would know that not listening to Mommy is an option, while killing her is not.
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My father was also raised on a farm with no TV. They worked hard and missed a lot of school due to farmwork and weather, but still had time to explore and play. Not every minute was structured to someone else's schedule. I do believe the atmosphere of such structure/control was a big part of this.
 
When one is never allowed the opportunity to think for themselves, they struggle to think for themselves when that opportunity arises. It's not acceptable this happened, but not altogether surprising, either. And my father grew up in a strict, "you're four now, son, so here's a rope go three fields over and get that calf" kinda environment, too, but that was the 1930s not now. I'd be calling that into DHS now while then it was business as usual.

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If his parents had been abusive in other ways I'm sure we'd be discussing how it might have been a contributing factor.
 
flourish said:
When one is never allowed the opportunity to think for themselves, they struggle to think for themselves when that opportunity arises. It's not acceptable this happened, but not altogether surprising, either. And my father grew up in a strict, "you're four now, son, so here's a rope go three fields over and get that calf" kinda environment, too, but that was the 1930s not now. I'd be calling that into DHS now while then it was business as usual.

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I would be calling them too. Isn't that what happened with the prepper family in Arkansas? CPS took their kids for awhile and I think it was a neighbor who first called them.
 
bluesneakers said:
I would be calling them too. Isn't that what happened with the prepper family in Arkansas? CPS took their kids for awhile and I think it was a neighbor who first called them.
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Oh yeah the miracle mineral cure family? That was.. Something..

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SpookyKid said:
I totally disagree with the blame being placed on the victim. The murderer is responsible for the murders. My dad was raised on a farm with no TV. He had to help on his parents' farm, like countless other children in rural areas. If that's all it took to drive this murderer to insanity, then he probably already had a mental illness. From what we know so far, there weren't daily beatings or sexual assaults. They just weren't coddled or indulged as kids. A hundred years ago it would have been normal not to be allowed to date and yet there wasn't an epidemic of people slaughtering their younger siblings and mothers. Are we to believe that imposing this restriction now drives one to lunacy because everyone else gets to do it? At any rate, he was 25! Barring some sort of mental disease or defect, an adult would know that not listening to Mommy is an option, while killing her is not.
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Oh absolutely no. This cannot be compared to kids raised on the farm without tv. That is not the problem. Not even close. Have you read the manual? 100 years ago, kids indeed did date. I'm not sure where you're getting they didn't. It's described in the little house on the prairie series and the Anne of Green Gables books and countless novels and letters throughout history. In colonial times young people went to pubs together and the practice of "bundling" during sleep over dates was not uncommon.

Couples went to dances. They met at civic groups and parties. Young people socialized and flirted at performances they put on. They went sledding and took walks together. Alone. They took long buggy rides and read poetry together. They had a myriad of opportunities to meet, become attracted and spend alone time together.

Farm life 100 years ago stretching all the way to the present has always typically included leisure. Farm and ranch kids have always had time to play and dream and explore and socialize when the chores were done. Not this family. They believed in no leisure or alone time of any kind. Not even on the toilet.

My God. The problem with this family isn't hard work and lack of tv. That's an incredible understatement. Read the manual. Every last second controlled. Every last thought was monitored and censored. The isolation outside of public family performances was complete. These kids were so tightly chaperoned it was as if their parents were North Korean "minders".

The domination and control of these poor kids was absolute and no one can really develop normally under such circumstances.

Does that mean all who are subject to such conditions grow up to murder? Of course not. But that a young adult, conditioned from infancy to obey and submit to having his will and independence annihilated, might possibly snap one day?

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to make that inference.
 
The manual was 10 years ago, the kids are all grownup, including the one who was killed. Jacob has a Facebook page with 135 Facebook friends, so I don't know we can assume home life was the same as when the boys were younger. https://www.facebook.com/jtgrass?ref=ts&fref=ts&__nodl

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gitana1 said:
Oh absolutely no. This cannot be compared to kids raised on the farm without tv. That is not the problem. Not even close. Have you read the manual? 100 years ago, kids indeed did date. I'm not sure where you're getting they didn't. It's described in the little house on the prairie series and the Anne of Green Gables books and countless novels and letters throughout history. In colonial times young people went to pubs together and the practice of "bundling" during sleep over dates was not uncommon.

Couples went to dances. They met at civic groups and parties. Young people socialized and flirted at performances they put on. They went sledding and took walks together. Alone. They took long buggy rides and read poetry together. They had a myriad of opportunities to meet, become attracted and spend alone time together.

Farm life 100 years ago stretching all the way to the present has always typically included leisure. Farm and ranch kids have always had time to play and dream and explore and socialize when the chores were done. Not this family. They believed in no leisure or alone time of any kind. Not even on the toilet.

My God. The problem with this family isn't hard work and lack of tv. That's an incredible understatement. Read the manual. Every last second controlled. Every last thought was monitored and censored. The isolation outside of public family performances was complete. These kids were so tightly chaperoned it was as if their parents were North Korean "minders".

The domination and control of these poor kids was absolute and no one can really develop normally under such circumstances.

Does that mean all who are subject to such conditions grow up to murder? Of course not. But that a young adult, conditioned from infancy to obey and submit to having his will and independence annihilated, might possibly snap one day?

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to make that inference.
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Even the Amish recognize the. Red for youth to explore the world via Rumspringa


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This mom is a cross between Kate Gosselin and Michelle Duggar


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Satchie said:
The manual was 10 years ago, the kids are all grownup, including the one who was killed. Jacob has a Facebook page with 135 Facebook friends, so I don't know we can assume home life was the same as when the boys were younger. https://www.facebook.com/jtgrass?ref=ts&fref=ts&__nodl

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While it is true that ten years have passed and these are now adults with access to the internet, I don't think it's reasonable to suggest that parents with the type of deep insecurities and issues with control that lead to such efforts to utterly dominate and subjugate their kids, grow out of that or evolve without serious intervention.

Further, a person raised from infancy under such conditions does not spontaneously become whole and independent and able to make decisions for his or herself. It takes extreme will, typically, to break free from that level of indoctrination and domination. Some find it but some lack it. Many simply continue on the pattern of dysfunction with their own families, now becoming the controller. But often, kids come out of those situations with a lot of problems.

The fact that these two young men continued to live at their parents' home and be part of the family entertainment business, with no evidence beyond Facebook friends of any sort of social or dating life independent of their parents, may support my theory. In retrospect, knowing the ultimate outcome, I don't think the possible links are fuzzy or irrational ones to make.
 
http://www.cantonrep.com/news/20170619/stockdale-family-son-remains-critical-optimistic-for-recovery

Jacob Stockdale remains in critical condition at Cleveland MetroHealth Medical Center, and family members are optimistic for his recovery, according to a news release issued Monday night.
In addition, Jacob will be undergoing several procedures and surgeries in the coming days, the release states.


Calvin Stockdale, the family’s eldest son, said Monday he’s uncertain why Jacob took the lives of his mother and youngest brother.
″... I speak for our family when I say we love him and forgive him. The prayers and support for my family have been deeply appreciated, and we ask for continued prayers for Jacob’s healing ...,” Calvin Stockdale said in the release.

A public memorial service for Kathryn and James Stockdale is slated for 1 p.m. Saturday at NewPointe Community Church, 3950 State Route 39, Dover
 
Spellbound said:
http://www.cantonrep.com/news/20170619/stockdale-family-son-remains-critical-optimistic-for-recovery

Jacob Stockdale remains in critical condition at Cleveland MetroHealth Medical Center, and family members are optimistic for his recovery, according to a news release issued Monday night.
In addition, Jacob will be undergoing several procedures and surgeries in the coming days, the release states.


Calvin Stockdale, the family’s eldest son, said Monday he’s uncertain why Jacob took the lives of his mother and youngest brother.
″... I speak for our family when I say we love him and forgive him. The prayers and support for my family have been deeply appreciated, and we ask for continued prayers for Jacob’s healing ...,” Calvin Stockdale said in the release.

A public memorial service for Kathryn and James Stockdale is slated for 1 p.m. Saturday at NewPointe Community Church, 3950 State Route 39, Dover
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I wonder if they understand that should he survive and somehow be competent, he's going to be charged with murder.
 
Satchie said:
The manual was 10 years ago, the kids are all grownup, including the one who was killed. Jacob has a Facebook page with 135 Facebook friends, so I don't know we can assume home life was the same as when the boys were younger. https://www.facebook.com/jtgrass?ref=ts&fref=ts&__nodl

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Yeah, I'm having a hard time attributing Jacob's crime to a repressed home life. The guy is 25 and two of his brothers managed to make choices to live elsewhere. James was in college. At the moment we have no information that would point to more sinister abuse in the home, ala Toby Willis. So what happened?

The sheriff had said something earlier about there being "speculation," which makes me think the reason Jacob murdered his mom and brother is more complex than an unhappy home life. It looks like he will survive his suicide attempt although his recovery may not be 100% because of it being a head wound.

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/20170619/stockdale-family-son-remains-critical-optimistic-for-recovery
 
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