OH - Kathryn, 54, & James Stockdale, 21, shot to death, Stark Co., 15 June 2017

[roadrunnermt]

The manual was 10 years ago, the kids are all grownup, including the one who was killed. Jacob has a Facebook page with 135 Facebook friends, so I don't know we can assume home life was the same as when the boys were younger. https://www.facebook.com/jtgrass?ref=ts&fref=ts&__nodl

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I'm not so sure how much this very old manual was even true to their exact schedules much less how much can change over 10 years. We are forgetting this manual was made for a PUBLIC TV SHOW. I'm sure there's a possibility mom easily made it appear a lot stricter than actual because that strictness is indeed what the show was looking for and was about. None of us truly know what went on behind closed doors and both boys were adults capable of walking away.

Most posts are victim blaming. There are surviving members of this family who may read here some day including living minor survivors. Please be careful with rumors and accusations we know nothing about. Regardless how they were raised, these victims didn't deserve demise.

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[Tillicum]

RUMOR WARNING. I just wanted to make sure this isn't repeated as anything other than rumor and I personally don't believe it but it really shows how little we know about the situation. Hub's co worker claimed he read that James and Mom were fighting and that James shot Mom, Jacob intervened and shot James and then turned the gun on himself. I've searched and haven't found anything remotely similar to this account, everything says Jacob shot James and Mom. Everything points to Jacob snapping but we really don't know what caused him to snap.

Mods please delete if this goes against TOS

 

[gitana1]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time attributing Jacob's crime to a repressed home life. The guy is 25 and two of his brothers managed to make choices to live elsewhere. James was in college. At the moment we have no information that would point to more sinister abuse in the home, ala Toby Willis. So what happened?

The sheriff had said something earlier about there being "speculation," which makes me think the reason Jacob murdered his mom and brother is more complex than an unhappy home life. It looks like he will survive his suicide attempt although his recovery may not be 100% because of it being a head wound.

http://www.cantonrep.com/news/20170619/stockdale-family-son-remains-critical-optimistic-for-recovery

Well, I think connecting the dots is logical. I mean, my dad and all his 5 siblings smoked heavily. Only two got lung cancer. The rest did not. Suggesting that because two brothers seem to have gained independence and be doing well means problems likely weren’t that grave or that the parenting style is unlikely to have caused serious problems is like saying that because some smokers don’t get lung cancer, smoking isn’t dangerous. Why do some get cancer and others don't? A genetic predisposition? Slight changes in their lifestyles? I don't know. I do know that studies are clear that repressive, controlling parenting styles can cause a lot of mental health issues in children. Why do some grow up and commit crimes or become insane? Why do some, even frome the same families, seem to function well? As with smoking, maybe slight differences in the genetic jackpot, or in their propensity to develop mental health issues. Maybe because some are born with personalities that fare worse when being subjected to extreme psychological control.

But there is really no debate that the risks of major problems increase when kids are subjected to hits kind of parenting. And respectfully, it always surprises me that people think because a person who had been subjected to either extreme control, abuse or brainwashing, becomes an adult, they spontaneously are able to overcome their past and can automatically develop into functioning, independent adults. Research shows that's certainly not the case with people who were subject to such control. They can have major issues with dependence and the ability to function as adults:

Parents who exert too much control over their children could be causing them lifelong psychological damage, according to a study which tracked a group of people born in the 1940s until the present day.
“By contrast, psychological control can limit a child’s independence and leave them less able to regulate their own behaviour.”
Examples of psychologically controlling behaviour identified by the study included invasions of children’s privacy and an unwillingness to let children make their own decisions, and fostering dependence upon one or both parents.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...psychological-damage-says-study-10485172.html

Children of parents who display overcontrolling behaviors (e.g. unnecessarily assisting children in tasks, controlling their behaviors) may develop perceptions of the self as incompetent, as well as being dependent on parents, having less chances to develop a sense of mastery, feel helpless, and experience the world as out of personal control, which can cause or intensify child anxiety and/or depression (Bögels and Brechman-Toussaint 2006; McLeod et al. 2007a, b).
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10826-015-0174-y
(Emphasis by me).

In contrast, harsh control, psychological control, authoritarian and, in part, neglectful parenting were associated with higher levels of internalizing symptoms.
Associations of Parenting Dimensions and Styles with Internalizing Symptoms in Children and Adolescents: A Meta-Analysis. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_in_Children_and_Adolescents_A_Meta-Analysis [accessed Jun 20, 2017].

· Parents who exert psychological control risk damaging their child for life
· Not letting them make their own decisions was psychological control
· Invading a child's privacy and creating dependence also classified control
· Findings highlight how parenting has a long-term impact on wellbeing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...age-children-trauma-bad-losing-loved-one.html

 

[gitana1]

I'm not so sure how much this very old manual was even true to their exact schedules much less how much can change over 10 years. We are forgetting this manual was made for a PUBLIC TV SHOW. I'm sure there's a possibility mom easily made it appear a lot stricter than actual because that strictness is indeed what the show was looking for and was about. None of us truly know what went on behind closed doors and both boys were adults capable of walking away.

Most posts are victim blaming. There are surviving members of this family who may read here some day including living minor survivors. Please be careful with rumors and accusations we know nothing about. Regardless how they were raised, these victims didn't deserve demise.

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There are no surviving minors. No minors lived in that household and the victims did not have minor children. That being said, it's true that the immediate and extended family and friends can read what's being suggested about the family. There is a difference, however, between saying a victim deserved what they got and/or caused it and pointing to issues that may mitigate the crime. I mean no one is saying that James did something to harm his brother,for example and no one is Jacob deserves a medal for killing his mother. It's murder.

But abuse and family issues/dysfunction have been discussed here in relation to many cases where kids kill their parents, like Gypsy Blancharde's case.

And while some may choose to believe that the manual was an outdated exaggeration - and we cannot prove or disprove that at this point - the very fact that a seemingly content and well-adjusted young man from a "wholesome" and apparently tight family that ran a business together, suddenly shot his brother and mother to death, and then tried to kill himself, can in and of itself suggest that what happened on that show and what was in that manual indeed, were close to reality and may be indicative of life in that home.

Sure, we don't know the cause. Maybe that sweet young man from a perfectly sheltered and devout family just happened to be evil. But he didn't try to hide the killings or claim some intruder did it so he could gain money from an insurance policy or something. And unlike most family annihilators, he wasn't a man responsible for the economic survival of his wife or kids, facing poverty, or a jealous husband or soon to be ex. And most kids who kill their families suffered extreme abuse or neglect:

http://digitalcommons.wcl.american.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=clb "Manytimes, a parent such as this will couple physical abuse withsevere psychological abuse. The parent may accomplish this byrejecting, isolating, exploiting, or berating the child.24 Thistype of verbal abuse is usually accompanied by severe domination,and the child may be 'controlled so strictly that theparental restraint amounts to virtual imprisonment.'25"

I'm good at logic. I'm connecting the dots between that snapshot into their family life (including the young man crying hysterically that he'd be going to hell when the other wife issued rules allowing him to watch tv.) and the reality and hard to discern motive of what he did. I think the likelihood of a connection is greater than not.

 

[Hippononymous]

The manual was 10 years ago, the kids are all grownup, including the one who was killed. Jacob has a Facebook page with 135 Facebook friends, so I don't know we can assume home life was the same as when the boys were younger. https://www.facebook.com/jtgrass?ref=ts&fref=ts&__nodl

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The home life doesn't have to be the same and that isn't the point. If you have never been close to this type of family behavior I am sure it's hard to understand. I personally know 2 people who are in therapy for PTSD related to a very, very similar upbringing. And they are twice Jacob's age (with families of their own).

I am not blaming the victim, nor am I saying we can say for certain what the motive was. I'm just stating that the influence of a crazy strict household like this can have long lasting negative effects on some people.

 

[Spellbound]

Well, I think connecting the dots is logical. I mean, my dad and all his 5 siblings smoked heavily. Only two got lung cancer. The rest did not. Suggesting that because two brothers seem to have gained independence and be doing well means problems likely weren’t that grave or that the parenting style is unlikely to have caused serious problems is like saying that because some smokers don’t get lung cancer, smoking isn’t dangerous. Why do some get cancer and others don't? A genetic predisposition? Slight changes in their lifestyles? I don't know. I do know that studies are clear that repressive, controlling parenting styles can cause a lot of mental health issues in children. Why do some grow up and commit crimes or become insane? Why do some, even frome the same families, seem to function well? As with smoking, maybe slight differences in the genetic jackpot, or in their propensity to develop mental health issues. Maybe because some are born with personalities that fare worse when being subjected to extreme psychological control.

But there is really no debate that the risks of major problems increase when kids are subjected to hits kind of parenting. And respectfully, it always surprises me that people think because a person who had been subjected to either extreme control, abuse or brainwashing, becomes an adult, they spontaneously are able to overcome their past and can automatically develop into functioning, independent adults. Research shows that's certainly not the case with people who were subject to such control. They can have major issues with dependence and the ability to function as adults:

Parents who exert too much control over their children could be causing them lifelong psychological damage, according to a study which tracked a group of people born in the 1940s until the present day.
“By contrast, psychological control can limit a child’s independence and leave them less able to regulate their own behaviour.”
Examples of psychologically controlling behaviour identified by the study included invasions of children’s privacy and an unwillingness to let children make their own decisions, and fostering dependence upon one or both parents.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...psychological-damage-says-study-10485172.html

Children of parents who display overcontrolling behaviors (e.g. unnecessarily assisting children in tasks, controlling their behaviors) may develop perceptions of the self as incompetent, as well as being dependent on parents, having less chances to develop a sense of mastery, feel helpless, and experience the world as out of personal control, which can cause or intensify child anxiety and/or depression (Bögels and Brechman-Toussaint 2006; McLeod et al. 2007a, b).
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10826-015-0174-y
(Emphasis by me).

In contrast, harsh control, psychological control, authoritarian and, in part, neglectful parenting were associated with higher levels of internalizing symptoms.
Associations of Parenting Dimensions and Styles with Internalizing Symptoms in Children and Adolescents: A Meta-Analysis. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_in_Children_and_Adolescents_A_Meta-Analysis [accessed Jun 20, 2017].

· Parents who exert psychological control risk damaging their child for life
· Not letting them make their own decisions was psychological control
· Invading a child's privacy and creating dependence also classified control
· Findings highlight how parenting has a long-term impact on wellbeing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...age-children-trauma-bad-losing-loved-one.html

You could be discussing me and my family quite well here, G. I was raised by a very controlling mother and did not realize where so many of my fears, insecurities, and anxieties came from until I was nearly 50 years old. Just because I was able to leave home and marry at the age of 19, I did not escape the controlling, manipulative attempts, nor the cutting words if I went against what she wanted.

Unless this family has made big changes and had intensive therapy, it is unlikely that any of them have truly lost the "values" instilled in them as children. Whether that continued when they became adults is yet to be known.

 

[Spellbound]

The home life doesn't have to be the same and that isn't the point. If you have never been close to this type of family behavior I am sure it's hard to understand. I personally know 2 people who are in therapy for PTSD related to a very, very similar upbringing. And they are twice Jacob's age (with families of their own).

I am not blaming the victim, nor am I saying we can say for certain what the motive was. I'm just stating that the influence of a crazy strict household like this can have long lasting negative effects on some people.

OMG .... this is exactly what I was trying to share in my post above. I am now over 65 and the negativity is still impacting me, even though both my parents are now deceased. (I had to go for therapy to understand why my mother was the way she was toward me. It still hurts tremendously.)

 

[Hippononymous]

OMG .... this is exactly what I was trying to share in my post above. I am now over 65 and the negativity is still impacting me, even though both my parents are now deceased. (I had to go for therapy to understand why my mother was the way she was toward me. It still hurts tremendously.)

I get it...I'm sorry.

 

[flourish]

I'm not so sure how much this very old manual was even true to their exact schedules much less how much can change over 10 years. We are forgetting this manual was made for a PUBLIC TV SHOW. I'm sure there's a possibility mom easily made it appear a lot stricter than actual because that strictness is indeed what the show was looking for and was about. None of us truly know what went on behind closed doors and both boys were adults capable of walking away.

Most posts are victim blaming. There are surviving members of this family who may read here some day including living minor survivors. Please be careful with rumors and accusations we know nothing about. Regardless how they were raised, these victims didn't deserve demise.

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To be fair, if we don't know if the manual was an accurate reflection of their lives, it could go either way--the manual could have been the "lite" version.

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[Tulessa]

OMG .... this is exactly what I was trying to share in my post above. I am now over 65 and the negativity is still impacting me, even though both my parents are now deceased. (I had to go for therapy to understand why my mother was the way she was toward me. It still hurts tremendously.)

This just totally breaks my heart. Big hugs my friend. :grouphug:

 

[MsMarple]

Well, I think connecting the dots is logical. I mean, my dad and all his 5 siblings smoked heavily. Only two got lung cancer. The rest did not. Suggesting that because two brothers seem to have gained independence and be doing well means problems likely weren’t that grave or that the parenting style is unlikely to have caused serious problems is like saying that because some smokers don’t get lung cancer, smoking isn’t dangerous. Why do some get cancer and others don't? A genetic predisposition? Slight changes in their lifestyles? I don't know. I do know that studies are clear that repressive, controlling parenting styles can cause a lot of mental health issues in children. Why do some grow up and commit crimes or become insane? Why do some, even frome the same families, seem to function well? As with smoking, maybe slight differences in the genetic jackpot, or in their propensity to develop mental health issues. Maybe because some are born with personalities that fare worse when being subjected to extreme psychological control.

But there is really no debate that the risks of major problems increase when kids are subjected to hits kind of parenting. And respectfully, it always surprises me that people think because a person who had been subjected to either extreme control, abuse or brainwashing, becomes an adult, they spontaneously are able to overcome their past and can automatically develop into functioning, independent adults. Research shows that's certainly not the case with people who were subject to such control. They can have major issues with dependence and the ability to function as adults:

Parents who exert too much control over their children could be causing them lifelong psychological damage, according to a study which tracked a group of people born in the 1940s until the present day.
“By contrast, psychological control can limit a child’s independence and leave them less able to regulate their own behaviour.”
Examples of psychologically controlling behaviour identified by the study included invasions of children’s privacy and an unwillingness to let children make their own decisions, and fostering dependence upon one or both parents.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...psychological-damage-says-study-10485172.html

Children of parents who display overcontrolling behaviors (e.g. unnecessarily assisting children in tasks, controlling their behaviors) may develop perceptions of the self as incompetent, as well as being dependent on parents, having less chances to develop a sense of mastery, feel helpless, and experience the world as out of personal control, which can cause or intensify child anxiety and/or depression (Bögels and Brechman-Toussaint 2006; McLeod et al. 2007a, b).
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10826-015-0174-y
(Emphasis by me).

In contrast, harsh control, psychological control, authoritarian and, in part, neglectful parenting were associated with higher levels of internalizing symptoms.
Associations of Parenting Dimensions and Styles with Internalizing Symptoms in Children and Adolescents: A Meta-Analysis. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_in_Children_and_Adolescents_A_Meta-Analysis [accessed Jun 20, 2017].

· Parents who exert psychological control risk damaging their child for life
· Not letting them make their own decisions was psychological control
· Invading a child's privacy and creating dependence also classified control
· Findings highlight how parenting has a long-term impact on wellbeing

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...age-children-trauma-bad-losing-loved-one.html

I hear ya gitana, and you make some good points. OTOH, Jacob didn't just internalize feelings of helplessness and incompetence, he committed matricide and fratricide. Many of the studies I've read indicate that often when children turn violent against family members there is also a history of physical and/or sexual abuse in the home. Currently we don't have any information that Jacob was physically or sexually abused so for now I'm reluctant to ascribe his crime to a single factor. But I do agree that kids in a family can and do cope differently so I get what you're saying.

Don't get me wrong; way back when I watched the Wife Swap episode I was thoroughly disgusted by the family's so-called parenting methods. I also have deep issues with religious fundamentalism so I'm in no way trying to excuse or diminish what I consider to be abusive treatment by the parents.

I guess I'm drawing my dots in pencil for now instead of ink while I wait for more information. I don't doubt Jacob's bizarre upbringing was more harmful than helpful but was it enough to cause him to murder or was it just the tip of the iceberg?

 

[human]

There is no way the fanily could be so perfect. I am wondering if Jacob was the scapegoat for any issues in the family. You see that in dysfuntion. The scapegoat, the clown, the over achiever. I forgot what other family roles there are.

I am thinking there is something else because of some facebook friends Jacob has.

 

[Spellbound]

http://radaronline.com/wp-content/u...ly-murder-crime-scene-details-docs-signed.pdf

6 page Police Report

 

[Ellmau]

So it looks as if Kathy was killed in the upstairs bathroom (first?) and James downstairs. Maybe James called 911?

 

[Jennifer17]

http://radaronline.com/wp-content/u...ly-murder-crime-scene-details-docs-signed.pdf

6 page Police Report

I wonder which one was lying at the front door with a shotgun near him? The officer heard a shot from inside the house. It doesn't seem like it would be from the gun with the body at the front door, if he was standing there.

 

[Spellbound]

So it looks as if Kathy was killed in the upstairs bathroom (first?) and James downstairs. Maybe James called 911?

I suspect Jacob called 911, waited for them to arrive before shootings himself. JMO

 

[Ellmau]

I wonder which one was lying at the front door with a shotgun near him? The officer heard a shot from inside the house. It doesn't seem like it would be from the gun with the body at the front door, if he was standing there.

It must be Jacob, with James in the kitchen. There have been no suggestions of anyone else being armed.

 

[Spellbound]

I wonder which one was lying at the front door with a shotgun near him? The officer heard a shot from inside the house. It doesn't seem like it would be from the gun with the body at the front door, if he was standing there.

From Police Report:

Upon arrival to front door, saw individual lying on his back with head facing front door. Was about to ask if individual was OK when heard a gunshot from inside residence. When they entered via front door, the male laying near the front door with apparent gunshot wound had shotgun lying by his side. Another individual was laying on kitchen floor with gunshot wound. Third individual found on floor of upstairs bedroom with gunshot wound.


So... if I understand right, there were two shotguns on-scene? the one by front door and one used when police arrived (in the kitchen)? Both brothers? or one with two guns?

 

[Jennifer17]

From Police Report:

Upon arrival to front door, saw individual lying on his back with head facing front door. Was about to ask if individual was OK when heard a gunshot from inside residence. When they entered via front door, the male laying near the front door with apparent gunshot wound had shotgun lying by his side. Another individual was laying on kitchen floor with gunshot wound. Third individual found on floor of upstairs bedroom with gunshot wound.


So... if I understand right, there were two shotguns on-scene? the one by front door and one used when police arrived (in the kitchen)? Both brothers? or one with two guns?

It only mentions the one gun, though. It is phrased a bit strangely though, isn't it? The officer was about to speak to the person at the door, and he heard a gunshot from inside the house? You would think that he would have seen the person shooting themselves.

 

[FlossyMay]

That makes no sense. Why would he be lying on the floor on his back waiting on the cops and is it even possible to shoot yourself with a shotgun while lying down?