GUILTY OH - Two women & child killed, 13yo abducted, Apple Valley, 10 Nov 2010 #8

[passionflower]

Each time I sleuth on a crime, I say this is the WORSE, and it keeps getting
HORRIFIC!
When is this going to stop????
What is happening to our society?
Dismembering? how sickening!

 

[SmoothOperator]

ok here's my take on the timeline of the actual killings..{and we will probably at some point have a clearer picture from Sarah's version}..

I originally thought MH got TH and SS when they came back from apt hunting..This seemed most likely because he watched them and learned TH sched. Therefor just as TH was supposed to work Thurs. morning shift, I believe that possibly could've her reg.sched..working daytime hours..MH couldve figured this out by watching..

But that particular day TH changed her sched. to go apt hunting with SS.. So, my original thinking was that he only planned to deal with Kody and Sarah..therefor breaking into the home that afternoon{believing TH had already left for work, yet kids had not arrived home from school}..his plan is to be there in the home whenkids arrive, do away with Kody and have his prize, Sarah..

But while MH is waiting in the home for kids TH and SS arrive home from apt hunting and he is forced to kill these two quickly, as he knew the kids would be quickly arriving home soon..

This made sense to me but a couple of things have changed my mind..Sarah saying that she last say her mom and brother in the home Weds. after school, that it was the 3 of them in the home when MH arrived, and that the last time she saw SS was Tuesday not Wednesday..This of course could possibly be just faulty and errors in reporting..

But going off that info I am more inclined to think that TH and SS went apt hunting much earlier in the day and had long since arrived back home with SS even leaving the Herrman home to go take of things at her home, with her kids.. Thus you have MH arriving at the home sometime before around 330 because TH was due to be at work at 4..with us not having a clear time the bus arrived really is the whole problem with reaLLY firming up that particular part of the timeline..I mean school let out at 230, but yet we have seen that the kids got home at 430 which just doesn't make sense..

So, without knowing that exact detail..The best I can figure with this paticular theory is that MH either arrived right before the kids arrive, or just as or after they arrive..Therefor that fits with Saras saying that it was her, mom, and Kody at the house when MH came..MH immediately separates Sarah from the other two,but she is in the home{per Barber who says she was in the home when the murders occur}but she is separated.. It is while MH is killing/disposing of TH and Kody that SS returns to the Herrman home{since GB is not coming home that evening, TH arranges for SS to come over at some point{and she wouldn't have had to be there exactly when the kids arrived or even right after..with Sarah being 13 it would be perfectly acceptable for her and her brother to be home for a couple hours with SS coming back early evening, say around dinner time]to stay with them until TH's shift was over around 10pm or so}

So, SS arrives there to stay with the kids for a few hours and is met by MH when entering the home..Therefor murdered..This would also fit with Sarah's acct saying that she had not "seen" SS since Tuesday..

So, as I said without us having the important exact detail of when the kids arrive home this is about as accurate as I could think thus having 2 separate theories..

Anyone found anything more accurate for the arrival time of Kody and Sarah?

 

[Leila]

I would love to know where this rumor came from?.....any clues?..another site?.....I'd like to go review it if I could....

I believe this could very well be what happened...maybe not the initial attack...maybe the attack was more of a spree killing and while at it he decided to torture...at least mentally....a little girl....he got to kill a dog...would love to know how the dog died and if he was dismembered.....Joseph Duncan supposedly had extensive tapes of his attacks on the Groene kids...

I still would love to know how the cops "knew" that Sarah was at MH's house....they said they "knew" but were hoping that the rest of the family was there....

unless Sarah was able to somehow use the phone or alternatively, someone saw him take her inside...

the other idea I have....is it at all possible that he took her to Walmart with him?....do they have her and him on video?......remember how Duncan took little Shasta to the foodmart/gas station?......almost like he was flaunting that he had control of that little girl......

In this case, I would think it would be too risky to take Sarah with him into Walmart. With it being a small town, the likelihood that someone would recognized Sarah is highly possible. A school friend's mother, or a relative, or a close family friend might be a clerk there, someone who would see Sarah and stop to say hello. It would be a chance for Sarah to escape.

 

[Java]

removed post

 

[Reannan]

......So, SS arrives there to stay with the kids for a few hours and is met by MH when entering the home..Therefor murdered..This would also fit with Sarah's acct saying that she had not "seen" SS since Tuesday..

Smooth, I think you have defined the sequence exactly!

 

[nursebeeme]

jmoo... this guy was a a sick, disturbed person. His tree habits are known as well as his camping out habbits....

it is not a far fetch to find the people he killed in his 'comfort zone'

I may be trying to get a little bit too much inside of his head (((and trust me that has not been fun on my part))) but I see this guy as an eccentric, underdeveloped male with several recent stressors that made him SNAP* and (((stressors))) allowed him to act out a fantasy situation.

This guy is much like a kid. I would not be surprised whatsoever to find out that other than being bound and gagged Sarah was otherwise (((physically))) okay. I personally do not see rape, sexual preoccupaiton here. What I do see here is a perversity that we rarely see... one with nature. I see MH making some sort of sacrifice, if you have it, to the trees for his long incarceration. He seems to have held such a bond.. and after all that time of being in jail and than being on parole (((he only recently got off)) this would possibly make sense.

as for why these people and why this time.. I guess only time will tell. But I can promise he was percolating deep below with his nasty thoughts and desires...and he took his offerings home to his beloved trees...

what a sick f###!

 

[nursebeeme]

further to add..... I have some connections in this part of the woods.... ((((former sheriff of fredericktown is an Uncle on my husband's side))))) he is retired.... but we will be down there for the holiday and I will talk to him about what he knows.

might be some.. might not be much... but I will report back what I hear

 

[Leila]

Agree totally. Just wondered about Sarah being found sooner....

TH's truck was still there both times the deputy came. We don't know what vehicle MH used for transport, but TH's truck was gone from her house the next day. And IIRC, neighbors (although the homes were not close together) did not remember seeing any suspicious vehicles or hearing anything. I would think he might have waited until very late to move the victims. All this leads me to believe he may very well have been there with Sarah at both deputy visits.

Another interesting thing I hadn't thought of... I am assuming that DQ mgr drove by not too long after the start of TH's 4pm shift (I, personally, have not seen documented anywhere what time DQ mgr drove by on Wed). Then she called the sheriff, who we know had a deputy visit at 8 and 11pm. All mention seeing TH's truck there on Wed, but I saw no mention of SS's vehicle. I realize police found it in TH's garage. I am ASSUMING MH put it there, because imo, it is unusual for a visiting friend to park her car in my garage, while mine is in the driveway or street. If that is the case, sounds like the attacks on the two women went down earlier than I had thought, and he had already hid SS's car before TH's shift was to start. JMO- conjecturing... I do NOT know for sure that SS didn't pull her car in the garage, it just seems unusual to me if she did. FWIW.

I think it's likely that MH was in the house at the time the manager drove past, and at the time of the two welfare checks by a deputy.

Based on what's been reported, Tina was supposed to be at work at the DQ at 4:00pm on Wednesday. I don't know how far the DQ is from her home, but lets say that she allowed at least 20 minutes to make the trip to work and be there on time and ready for her shift, she would have to leave for work at 3:40pm. Tina was prevented from going to work on Wednesday. So, I would assume that MH was in Tina's house by 3:30pm at the latest.

We don't have a time for when the manager drove by the house, so it's difficult to work this into the scenario. But we do know that when the deputy went by at about 8:00pm and again at about 11:00pm, he reported the lights on inside the house, and TH's truck in the driveway, and no other cars.

The next day, Thursday, when the manager went to the house and entered the house and found blood, she called 911. At that time TH's truck was not there. But SS's Jeep was in the garage.

We don't know when SS came to the house, but apparently MH moved her Jeep into the garage as no one reported seeing SS's Jeep anywhere else. I think it was her Jeep being in the garage that alerted LE to her being missing too.

While we don't know the sequence of events, it's been reported by LE that Sarah last saw SS on Tuesday, and her mother and brother on Wednesday. After hearing that, I've assumed that Sarah was separated from the other three early on.

Perhaps MH used SS's Jeep to take Sarah to his house where he left her in the basement bound and gagged, while he disposed of the bodies. I don't think he took Sarah with him to dispose of the bodies as she would have been able to give LE a general idea of where the bodies were taken.

I think it's likely that MH waited until the wee hours of Thursday morning to dispose of the bodies, and was there from sometime on Wednesday afternoon onward.

 

[peeples]

I think it's likely that MH was in the house at the time the manager drove past, and at the time of the two welfare checks by a deputy.

Based on what's been reported, Tina was supposed to be at work at the DQ at 4:00pm on Wednesday. I don't know how far the DQ is from her home, but lets say that she allowed at least 20 minutes to make the trip to work and be there on time and ready for her shift, she would have to leave for work at 3:40pm. Tina was prevented from going to work on Wednesday. So, I would assume that MH was in Tina's house by 3:30pm at the latest.

We don't have a time for when the manager drove by the house, so it's difficult to work this into the scenario. But we do know that when the deputy went by at about 8:00pm and again at about 11:00pm, he reported the lights on inside the house, and TH's truck in the driveway, and no other cars.

The next day, Thursday, when the manager went to the house and entered the house and found blood, she called 911. At that time TH's truck was not there. But SS's Jeep was in the garage.

We don't know when SS came to the house, but apparently MH moved her Jeep into the garage as no one reported seeing SS's Jeep anywhere else. I think it was her Jeep being in the garage that alerted LE to her being missing too.

While we don't know the sequence of events, it's been reported by LE that Sarah last saw SS on Tuesday, and her mother and brother on Wednesday. After hearing that, I've assumed that Sarah was separated from the other three early on.

Perhaps MH used SS's Jeep to take Sarah to his house where he left her in the basement bound and gagged, while he disposed of the bodies. I don't think he took Sarah with him to dispose of the bodies as she would have been able to give LE a general idea of where the bodies were taken.

I think it's likely that MH waited until the wee hours of Thursday morning to dispose of the bodies, and was there from sometime on Wednesday afternoon onward.

I think he used her jeep as well because early on LE said there was evidence in BOTH vehicles.....

 

[Java]

NORTH FORT MYERS: Neighbors says that Raymond Herrmann is the father of Tina Herrmann, the mother killed along her son, and a family friend.
We're told Herrmann, who lives in North Fort Myers, is in Ohio now with family as they grieve their loss and prepare for funeral services.
The bodies of Tina Herrmann, her 11-year-old son Kody Maynard, and friend Stephanie Sprang were found stabbed and dumped inside a tree trunk in Mount Vernon, Ohio.
Herrmann's 13-year-old daughter Sarah Maynard was found tied to a chair in a basement on November 13th after a S.W.A.T. search.
Funeral services are set for Wednesday in Ohio.
In lieu of flowers, the family is requesting that donations be made to the Sarah Maynard Benefit Fund at any Fifth Third Bank.
2 News online

 

[Leila]

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mount-vernon-oh/T8EG1RIVL3QIHAAAT/p7

That is for the Mount Vernon but I tried finding it but have not yet.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank You!

 

[CKay]

I think it's likely that MH was in the house at the time the manager drove past, and at the time of the two welfare checks by a deputy.

Based on what's been reported, Tina was supposed to be at work at the DQ at 4:00pm on Wednesday. I don't know how far the DQ is from her home, but lets say that she allowed at least 20 minutes to make the trip to work and be there on time and ready for her shift, she would have to leave for work at 3:40pm. Tina was prevented from going to work on Wednesday. So, I would assume that MH was in Tina's house by 3:30pm at the latest.

We don't have a time for when the manager drove by the house, so it's difficult to work this into the scenario. But we do know that when the deputy went by at about 8:00pm and again at about 11:00pm, he reported the lights on inside the house, and TH's truck in the driveway, and no other cars.

The next day, Thursday, when the manager went to the house and entered the house and found blood, she called 911. At that time TH's truck was not there. But SS's Jeep was in the garage.

We don't know when SS came to the house, but apparently MH moved her Jeep into the garage as no one reported seeing SS's Jeep anywhere else. I think it was her Jeep being in the garage that alerted LE to her being missing too.

While we don't know the sequence of events, it's been reported by LE that Sarah last saw SS on Tuesday, and her mother and brother on Wednesday. After hearing that, I've assumed that Sarah was separated from the other three early on.

Perhaps MH used SS's Jeep to take Sarah to his house where he left her in the basement bound and gagged, while he disposed of the bodies. I don't think he took Sarah with him to dispose of the bodies as she would have been able to give LE a general idea of where the bodies were taken.

I think it's likely that MH waited until the wee hours of Thursday morning to dispose of the bodies, and was there from sometime on Wednesday afternoon onward.

I agree that SS's Jeep was probably used, not only to take Sarah to his house, but then to dispose of bodies. He had to get the bodies from the house to a vehicle. With SS's Jeep parked in the garage, he could do this without being seen. Her Jeep would blend in more, as TH's F150 seemed like it would garner more attention, if driven to that remote spot where the tree was. Not sure why he would go back to the house and switch trucks though ... sounds risky, but it (the switch) was done overnight on Wednesday, after last check by Deputy. It could be (and probable) that MH was long gone by the time the deputy did the first check.

Your timing of 20 minutes into town sounds about right. Could get from her house to DQ in that amount of time, given no traffic issues (I'm saying this as a local).

 

[Texas Mist]

was just reading on FB-- another post by a 10TV producer says that the DQ Fundraiser raised $8,167


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pray-for-The-Maynard-Kids/174173612594279?v=wall

 

[antiquegirl]

The actual timeline of what happened is very confusing, which is complicated by various conflicting media reports. This makes it difficult to come up with any reasonable theories.

(RSBM)

ok here's my take on the timeline of the actual killings..{and we will probably at some point have a clearer picture from Sarah's version}..

I originally thought MH got TH and SS when they came back from apt hunting..

But that particular day TH changed her sched. to go apt hunting with SS..

GB said that TH and SS were supposed to look for an apartment together. Unfortunately, it was never specified whether this was supposed to take place that Wednesday or was just a general comment about the future. We have had no confirmation, to the best of my knowledge, that the two women actually went apartment hunting. I'd like to think that some superintendent or apt. manager would have come forth to say the women were seen that afternoon.

This made sense to me but a couple of things have changed my mind..Sarah saying that she last say her mom and brother in the home Weds. after school,

Do you have a link saying "after school"? I don't recall anyone saying when Sarah saw her mother and brother in the house. It could have been before school for the mom. Or, she could have seen her mother already tied up when she and Kody arrived home.

that it was the 3 of them in the home when MH arrived,

Please, again where does it say that Sarah saw MH arriving?

and that the last time she saw SS was Tuesday not Wednesday..This of course could possibly be just faulty and errors in reporting..

Yes, this was quoted by, I believe, Sheriff Barber.

But going off that info I am more inclined to think that TH and SS went apt hunting much earlier in the day and had long since arrived back home with SS even leaving the Herrman home to go take of things at her home, with her kids..

SS was seen at the tanning salon at around noon, so if they went apartment hunting, it had to be sometime after that.

My theories change, but right now I think that MH arrived at the house when only TH was home. I believe that they had either met previously, or he claimed to know SS from the gym and she let him in voluntarily. (This jibes with Sheriff Barber saying that there was no home invasion and no sign of a struggle.) They may have sat around and had a few beers.

At some point before the kids got home (and I believe it was closer to 3:30 than 4:30), I think an argument broke out and MH killed TH. Next, the kids arrived home and he separated Sarah and killed Kody. Before he could get out, SS arrived and it was easy to deal with just one person.

The other possibility is that both women were home when MH came knocking on the door and they voluntarily let him in. The back wounds very likely happened as one or both tried to escape. Perhaps he hadn't even been expecting the kids, but they got home before he could dispose of the women and he had no choice but to get rid of Kody and for some reason I can't fathom, he kept Sarah. I also don't believe he molested her.

At some point, he used TH's SUV to move the bodies or to take Sarah to his house. Why he chose to abandon it 7 miles away is anyone's guess.

Just a working theory based on the little that we know.

MOO

 

[mikeysmommom]

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mount-vernon-oh/T8DPQ8NLPNMR7V3OT/p4

Post 73 then more on next page.

 

[Ozarka]

Has anyone considered HOW he returned home or to TH's house after he left her truck 7 miles away? Someone had to have seen him-either walking or someone gave him a ride.

 

[Filly]

There's something relevant about MH to me. We all ask how someone could be so awful? How can someone do such things to another human being? It's so utterly preverse we feel a need to know or understand.

The first thing I noticed about this guy in the few photographs we have seen of him is that he has Sanpaku Eyes. The three whites we call them. Of course this can be dismissed as pure bull. However there's something to it. We actually had a thread in the Jury room on it. People with these eyes included Diane Downes. I call them upsidedown eyes.

Here's a link to some of the information. Basically these people are prone to depression, anger, putting themselves at high risk. This MH did all that.


http://www.redicecreations.com/article.php?id=4762

Again, I am not saying this is a given. I learned about it years ago from a friend who did a clinical in a Psyche Hospital. From that point on I have always looked out for that.

 

[snapdragon]

I agree that SS's Jeep was probably used, not only to take Sarah to his house, but then to dispose of bodies. He had to get the bodies from the house to a vehicle. With SS's Jeep parked in the garage, he could do this without being seen. Her Jeep would blend in more, as TH's F150 seemed like it would garner more attention, if driven to that remote spot where the tree was. Not sure why he would go back to the house and switch trucks though ... sounds risky, but it (the switch) was done overnight on Wednesday, after last check by Deputy. It could be (and probable) that MH was long gone by the time the deputy did the first check.

Your timing of 20 minutes into town sounds about right. Could get from her house to DQ in that amount of time, given no traffic issues (I'm saying this as a local).

Is the garage attached or unattached?


If he did everything with the jeep, why would he come back and move the truck to near the college? Doesn't make sense-why not leave it there? I think he PUT SS's car in the garage to HIDE it.. I mean, he wouldn't know if SS's family/kids would be looking for her... first place they might ck was TH's house. But if no car outside, then no suspicion. On the other hand, from statements alluding to the fact that he was watching the Herrmann/Borders household, I think he very well KNEW when Borders would be gone, and who typically came and went.

I think the "evidence" they found in SS's car was MH's fingerprints/and or hair from moving it into the garage. I think he loaded the back of the truck, and perhaps took SM at that time as well.

 

[cluciano63]

This crime is probably the worst one I have learned about in a long, long time. I can't bear the thought of the victims being stabbed...somehow that seems the very worst way to die. And the thought of this grown adult stabbing a little boy and two women is just chilling. The whole thing makes me very scared too, in a selfish kind of way, as I am alone overnight as my husband works graveyard. It is terrifying to think there are people like this everywhere and anywhere.

But mostly I am just so sad for these victims, that their lives are gone, just like that, to satisfy some unknowable urge in this guy. I am not very religious these days, and people like this don't help. I find it hard to look for any kind of reason why these innocent people should have had to be stabbed to death and cut into pieces...to teach us, what exactly? I just don't get it...I'm not vindictive either, but there is nothing too harsh for this guy.

 

[CKay]

Has anyone considered HOW he returned home or to TH's house after he left her truck 7 miles away? Someone had to have seen him-either walking or someone gave him a ride.

He was spotted by LE, near the area where the truck was found (few hours after).