GUILTY OH - Two women & child killed, 13yo abducted, Apple Valley, 10 Nov 2010 #8

[doberman1]

Another bad thing.....now every man in the county will get looked at as if he is a creep just because he is a stranger. A shame how you can take a community where everyone is comfortable with everyone....and turn that upside down....now everybody is looking over thier shoulder....sad

 

[CKay]

So I wonder if the 4:30 bus drop-off time I've seen isn't accurate then? (just read this on forums---can't recall if there's been any specific verification on the kids' drop-off time)?

Thanks so much CKay for the info!

The drive from the school to the house is no more than 10 minutes, if no traffic or other stops etc. and went directly there.
But I'm sure there are other delays (loading etc), and the bus could have circled the other way around Apple Valley Drive first (the west side, TH's house is on the east side) before dropping the kids, and the bus doesn't drive as fast as me *ahem*.

My best guess is somewhere between 3 and 3:30, but I really don't know for sure. Haven't seen a quote from the school or bus driver. No way would it have been as late as 4:30.

 

[CKay]

Another bad thing.....now every man in the county will get looked at as if he is a creep just because he is a stranger. A shame how you can take a community where everyone is comfortable with everyone....and turn that upside down....now everybody is looking over thier shoulder....sad

I'm originally a city girl (grew up in Westerville, near Columbus...know Columbus like the back of my hand), so I already don't take safety for granted. But I understand what you're saying. One of the reasons why I've stayed here (after my Mom died) is that the safety factor was tipping the scale in this area's direction (I live alone). That scale just went haywire, so who knows now.

 

[imanta]

Another bad thing.....now every man in the county will get looked at as if he is a creep just because he is a stranger. A shame how you can take a community where everyone is comfortable with everyone....and turn that upside down....now everybody is looking over thier shoulder....sad

I'm 38yo now but when I was 10yo a friend of mine was murdered in a horrible way. For everyone in the community it was shocking and horrendous--I can't say exactly how the adults experienced it but I know as a kid my feeling of any sort of safety and security completely disappeared. It was so traumatizing and I still see the echoes of how it shaped me present in my life.

I really hope (and I do think) the way things like this are coped with has changed over the last 20 years. Already it seems there's more talk about how to help your children cope with such a horrendous trauma---hopefully this will help the kids deal with their feelings. (Link to the east knox school district page with "coping strategies" link clickable on the right hand side:

http://www.ekschools.com/ekschools/site/default.asp


Recently, a bunch of friends from back when this happened reconnected on facebook and we talked about the feelings we had back then that have stayed with us all these years; I found it, and they said too, that it was cathartic to be able to talk to each other about it since back then most of us seemed to not have help processing it all. I know for my sister and I we just read all these graphic details of how our friend and the other people were murdered in the newspapers and didn't have a lot of encouragement re: how to deal with it.

Anyway, my point in saying all this is that this definitely will be a life-changing experience for the community and the kids in Mount Vernon (as I know is obvious to everyone). I really feel for them and hope there will be good emotional support available. I don't know that you ever get back the innocence you lose when something like this happens. I really don't think so.

 

[belimom]

i did not think the truck was at the bike tril at the same time as hoffman and his car. I thought it was just him in his car sitting, then later the truck showed up and stayed

I actually interpreted it differently. From listening to the presser and the sheriff, I got the impression that they had already gotten the truck and were still there when they saw him. If they had been in the parking lot before, they would have found the truck then, IMHO.

 

[Leila]

Maybe CB worked for the tree trimming company or something. Maybe MH had a fascination with rotting trees or something. I still don't understand this - if Sarah was his target - he had plenty of opportunities I'm sure to grab her by himself. And if DQ manager got in the back window...I wonder if he did and who knows, he may have did that more than once. Kinda like Duncan with the nightvision goggles scoping out the Groenes. I mean who would freaking think...it's so weird and disturbing. I don't think this was his first time, I'll say that. And to sit across the street staring at the house - I'm sure that was him and whoever the poster was that starting quoting the Silence of the Lambs - we covet what we see every day...was spot on.

A couple threads ago there was brief mention that Tina's house had been ransacked about 3 or 4 months ago. No police report was made of the incident. IIRC Tina's ex-boyfriend, family, and others knew that the house had been ransacked.

I think there's a possibility that MH was responsible for ransacking the house and was in the house to know ahead of time what the layout of the house was.

 

[snapdragon]

I'm starting to wonder if MH might have eaten enough of the squirrels, and particularly their brains, to have some form of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. If so, he'd be the first case I've heard of since we were informed of the dangers more than a dozen years ago. I'll have to read more, but I don't think we know a lot of 30 year olds these days who might have a steady diet of squirrel. Yes, it usually takes many years for it to show up. I realize that. File this under more weirdness, I suppose, but possibly relevant.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/cjd/detail_cjd.htm

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2805%2963333-8/fulltext

Interesting thought... I do not think this disease was MH's problem tho. I do think that the science of psychopaths and sociopaths is lacking in recent findings/treatments. Perhaps it is a virus of sorts, brain damage, etc. I hope they were able to use Dahmer's brain to study. I agree with other posters that studying this behaviour and derangement is important to our world. It has been around as long as man has....

 

[imanta]

A couple threads ago there was brief mention that Tina's house had been ransacked about 3 or 4 months ago. No police report was made of the incident. IIRC Tina's ex-boyfriend, family, and others knew that the house had been ransacked.

I think there's a possibility that MH was responsible for ransacking the house and was in the house to know ahead of time what the layout of the house was.

Was there any mention of why it wasn't reported Leila do you remember?

 

[imanta]

Interesting thought... I do not think this disease was MH's problem tho. I do think that the science of psychopaths and sociopaths is lacking in recent findings/treatments. Perhaps it is a virus of sorts, brain damage, etc. I hope they were able to use Dahmer's brain to study. I agree with other posters that studying this behaviour and derangement is important to our world. It has been around as long as man has....

I agree with snap. It is an interesting thought but I'd be surprised if MH had something like this. I guess you never know though---there's starting to be more and more evidence of viruses being implicated in various disorders, whether directly or indirectly. No evidence of it in psychopaths and sociopaths though afaik (maybe no studies done on it though either?).

 

[Leila]

That's why I wonder of the vultures that were circling that pointed to one of the places searched could be where the dogs are, possibly, in a hollow tree. If I lived there I'd go out on my own looking. I think it was a wooded area. When searchers went there, I think they found nada... no mention of visible dead deer or other wild animal carcass as the cause...

Interesting! Whenever you hear of, or see vultures circling it means there's something dead they're focused on. If the searchers didn't find anything dead on the ground, perhaps whatever the vultures were focused on was not on the ground but in the trees.

 

[snapdragon]

The coincidence bothers me too. Although I think MH acted alone, I can't help but wonder if CB is someone MH confided in at some point, or who had prior knowledge of MH's sick obsessions and how his (warped) mind works.

What I didn't like about his post, as it was translated on this site, was the beginning, "if he was smart".... wth??? I don't like that intro. Yes, it may be innocent, but still, insensitive at best.

If there is a connection- perhaps a former prison mate in CO?

 

[doberman1]

no I am 99% sure that he was at the bike trial before the truck showed up. Wish I could find the artical

 

[snapdragon]

Around here all kids are picked up and dropped off door to door, has been like that for years. We don't have bus stops anymore...

Guess that would be bus to door. even if kids are only 1 or 2 blocks apart form each other.

Read somewhere at work on Thurs after discovery of bodies that the schoolbus dropped the two kids at their home at 4:30PM. Sorry I do not have a link to this, have been out and about and will try to search more for it. As another poster said, media reports can be flawed... we've seen that in this case and many others regarding the details leading up to the convictions.

 

[snapdragon]

I understand where you're coming from. But the thing that nags me about CB's comment was the "If MH were smart" wording. That seems just a little bit too staged, too scripted. I don't think most people would call MH's method of disposal "smart." I think they'd call it sick.*

*Please note: I am not calling good sleuthing "sick;" I am calling MH "sick." I mean no offense, or negative insinuation, to any sleuthers who came to similar conclusions as CB.

My sentiments EXACTLY.. wanted to thank you twice!!!
Just posted my thoughts on this upthread.

 

[doberman1]

I actually interpreted it differently. From listening to the presser and the sheriff, I got the impression that they had already gotten the truck and were still there when they saw him. If they had been in the parking lot before, they would have found the truck then, IMHO.

All I could find was this.


"A sheriff’s deputy reported finding and questioning Hoffman at a bike trail parking lot on Laymon Road near where Herrmann’s Ford F-150 pickup truck was found Thursday night. He was asked for identification and released.

Barber said that wasn’t the event that led investigators to his Columbus Road home at 8 a.m. Sunday. He declined to say why they went to his home."

 

[CKay]

no I am 99% sure that he was at the bike trial before the truck showed up. Wish I could find the artical

Not sure about any media reports on the topic, but I'm 100% positive that Sheriff Barber would not comment on the exact timing. Who knows what a reporter might have heard "off the record" though.

 

[Texas Mist]

no I am 99% sure that he was at the bike trial before the truck showed up. Wish I could find the artical

Welcome to WS, doberman!

If you find out what time LE talked to MH, could you let us know? that's one of the timeline pieces we're missing.

We already know approx. time the F150 was found.

 

[Soul125]

Another bad thing.....now every man in the county will get looked at as if he is a creep just because he is a stranger. A shame how you can take a community where everyone is comfortable with everyone....and turn that upside down....now everybody is looking over thier shoulder....sad

I think MH showed some very odd behavior if the stories are true about him watching this family before the crime. If I saw somebody watching my house I would report them no doubt. This guy had to have been watching them for some time because he couldn't have just picked a home without knowing who lived there. He had to know who lived there and who would be home at whatever times because he did this alone. One of the biggest questions that goes through my mind is how could have this been prevented. I wish I had an answer, but I really don't.

 

[snapdragon]

Don't know if this article has been posted already but it explains how MH knew Stephanie Sprang before this and speculates about his possible involvement in other unsolved cases;

"As far as how Hoffman may have known these three, according to the Mt. Vernon News, he was a member of a gym that Stephanie Sprang worked at as a cleaning lady."

http://www.wkyc.com/news/state/ohio/news_article.aspx?storyid=159434&catid=23

Yes, it is what I had thought... but why stalk the Herrmann house, as he must have? Doesn't make sense, unless it was a "progressive" stalking of sorts. Still wonder if MH approached SS at some point to "talk" to her... for the umpteenth time, I am reminded of the Red Dragon movie(fictional).. that movie totally freaked me out, but he stalked families he saw in photos at the lab where he worked developing film. No warning, made me think of what happened at Herrmann house. In the movie, the killer had an affection/protection for a blind woman he met- couldn't SEE him. Weird stuff... sick, sick people in this world.

 

[CKay]

All I could find was this.


"A sheriff’s deputy reported finding and questioning Hoffman at a bike trail parking lot on Laymon Road near where Herrmann’s Ford F-150 pickup truck was found Thursday night. He was asked for identification and released.

Barber said that wasn’t the event that led investigators to his Columbus Road home at 8 a.m. Sunday. He declined to say why they went to his home."

"Where (the truck) was found Thursday night" <<< timing was about the truck find, not when he saw him.

I understand the confusion on this particular detail. It confuses the timeline, because if we knew when he was there, we could fit it into the timeline better. But the when of that sighting remains a mystery. It could have been Wednesday, before he set off on foot down the trail to Tina's house (if that's what he did...who knows). It could have been the day after, and with the recent events, the officer was just making a record of everything and anything out of the ordinary. I've been tempted to pay the scanner site so I can listen to archives from that Wednesday forward, but I think I'd go crazy listening for it (too big of a timeframe to listen to every single minute of every day involved).