OK OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024

[otto]

Just caught up on this thread

The fact that the children’s father was in rehab many hours away has certainly made me look at the case differently.

Does anyone know if it’s been released whether the Grandma tried to contact Veronica when she didn’t turn up? I would have expected at least a phone call to check why she hadn’t arrived.

Do we know if the children are still in grandmas care whilst this investigation is ongoing? Or have they been placed elsewhere?

Hopefully the children's grandmother contacted Veronica, Veronica's contact person, Jilian and Jilian's husband when they failed to arrive at the scheduled time. A phone call from the grandmother might explain why Jilian's husband arrived at the scene 15 minutes after police arrived (roughly 10:45 a.m.).

Police have said that the community does not need to be concerned about random kidnappers, which suggests that the kidnappings were targeted. Of the two women in the vehicle, it's most likely that Veronica was the target. Jilian was only there because she was one of 4 possible supervisors.

The next question is motive - who has a motive to kidnap Veronica? Opportunity - who knew about Veronica's regularly scheduled Saturday visitation, vehicle, route, and timeline? Means is unknown without more information.

The children's father was in rehab. Their grandmother would have been with the children, waiting for Veronica at the Four Corners abandoned building and to hand-over the children for the little girl's birthday party.

Police must be combing through Veronica's life to check whether anyone from her past had a reason to hold a grudge.

 

[Ladyotm]

MOO, someone was feed up with the way they viewed VB treated the children. They were not sure the children would be safe and they did something drastic that there is no coming back from. JK was collateral damage. MOO.

Like some others I feel more than one person is involved.

 

[charmingbetsy]

I've been thinking...here's my new completely speculative theory that I think could answer some questions about how VB and JK got stopped.

Maybe it was an LE impersonator. It doesn't take much to make a black car look like an unmarked police vehicle. Some tinted windows, interior flashing lights and a bullhorn to tell them to pull over would probably be enough. If they thought they were getting pulled over, they wouldn't try to floor it as they might with an obvious ambush. If someone happened to drive by and saw what looked like a cop car there, they might later think that what they saw was the first cop to arrive, not the crime.

Just a thought since we don't have any info on collision damage or other info that would indicate a hostile takeover of their car on the road.

 

[AlyssaAngel]

Could someone have miscalculated? Planned the crime to occur at the next visitation following the most obvious suspect's release from jail, but didn't know he would go to rehab and have a solid alibi?

But then we're left with no obvious motive. Someone who would plan out a crime like this, right down to picking who would take the fall for it, and also not mind harming an innocent second person... that would have to be one heck of a grudge.

 

[Hestia's Fire]

I've been thinking...here's my new completely speculative theory that I think could answer some questions about how VB and JK got stopped.

Maybe it was an LE impersonator. It doesn't take much to make a black car look like an unmarked police vehicle. Some tinted windows, interior flashing lights and a bullhorn to tell them to pull over would probably be enough. If they thought they were getting pulled over, they wouldn't try to floor it as they might with an obvious ambush. If someone happened to drive by and saw what looked like a cop car there, they might later think that what they saw was the first cop to arrive, not the crime.

Just a thought since we don't have any info on collision damage or other info that would indicate a hostile takeover of their car on the road.

That could work, but I think most people reflexively roll their window down when they get pulled over by a cop. If they were convincing enough to get the ladies to pull over, there most likely wouldn't have been a need to break the window to get to them. I suppose they could have hurriedly put the window back up once they saw the driver wasn't a real cop, but if there was time for that, there probably would have been time to floor it and get out of there.

 

[Gae]

charmingbetsy, that would answer a lot of questions - especially the question of how their car got on that side road. A LE impersonator could direct them off that main road quite easily as where some random driver couldn't. To get VB to turn off the main highway onto that road, it would about have to be a ruse of some sort.

 

[Gae]

That could work, but I think most people reflexively roll their window down when they get pulled over by a cop. If they were convincing enough to get the ladies to pull over, there most likely wouldn't have been a need to break the window to get to them. I suppose they could have hurriedly put the window back up once they saw the driver wasn't a real cop, but if there was time for that, there probably would have been time to floor it and get out of there.

Has it been verified that a window was shattered? I know so many things have been accepted as actually happening - like a "pool of blood" which has never been verified as far as I know. Some woman claimed she was driving by and saw the car and it had a shattered window - but I've seen others discrediting her - saying the car's position and distance from the main road, it would make it nearly impossible to see the driver's window.

 

[Hestia's Fire]

Has it been verified that a window was shattered? I know so many things have been accepted as actually happening - like a "pool of blood" which has never been verified as far as I know. Some woman claimed she was driving by and saw the car and it had a shattered window - but I've seen others discrediting her - saying the car's position and distance from the main road, it would make it nearly impossible to see the driver's window.

Now that you ask, I don't know. I've had it in my head that it was fact, but it could just be that I've heard it so many times I stopped questioning it. Now I need to go try to verify that.

 

[Gae]

Now that you ask, I don't know. I've had it in my head that it was fact, but it could just be that I've heard it so many times I stopped questioning it. Now I need to go try to verify that.

Also, if there actually was a shattered window, the perp could have shot her through the window and that would keep her from flooring it.

 

[Raynebowtaster]

I understand everyone's concern for the safety of the children, and if this is a custody crime to compare..... How long did the Wagner's have custody and how soon after child removal were they arrested? IIRC, they had physical custody for awhile after named as POI.

 

[charmingbetsy]

Also, I know guns are talked about a lot, since OK is so gun-friendly, but what about tasers for immediate immobilization?

 

[Gae]

Also, I know guns are talked about a lot, since OK is so gun-friendly, but what about tasers for immediate immobilization?

Tasers are quiet and don't leave behind evidence that guns can.

 

[countryrhode1]

Even though it is very rural, most of the area is all private property; ranches and farms. Permission must be granted by each property owner for Equusearch to search their land.
Not all people want or will allow searches on their property.

Yes, I think LE has to take a very different approach here. I am new to the group, coming over from the FB group where there is a lot of activity from locals. <modsnip: Do not bring info from social media groups unless the Admin of a WS approved account> My heart goes out to Veronica and Jilian's families and the children.

 

[Gae]

Has anyone brought up the possibility of a hired hit? A contract killing would be very difficult to solve.

 

[shefner]

If this incident was related to the custody issue, then it's logical to assume the goal was to permanently eliminate not temporarily incapacitate.

*I'm hoping for forensic evidence from the perp/s in the Kia or the area surrounding it (ie., DNA, shoe prints, finger prints, tire tracks, a shell casing).
*I'm hoping pressure, guilt, or proper motivation, causes someone to talk.
*I'm hoping digital data will yield helpful/incriminating information.

 

[PommyMommy]

APR 8, 2024

Drone footage shows Oklahoma area of missing Kansas moms' case | Vargas Reports​

 

[tatertot]

2 points:
1. Wonder if this was the first time Veronica had picked the children up for an outing beyond the grandmother's home? Had the other visitations been in her home?

2. Ordinarily, I would have wondered how tight security was at the rehab. Is he on lock down? Could he have possibly slipped out and back in without being caught? However, since this was a mid-morning incident, surely, Rickman must have been accounted for in rehab activities?

Re: your second question, I've never heard of an inpatient rehab that locks down its facility from the inside, and like StarRemy8 said, patients may be free to leave at any time, but leaving court-ordered treatment is a violation of that court order. That said, once someone left voluntarily, they would not be allowed back inside, not even to get their belongings themselves. This is to keep the other patients safe against someone bringing drugs back inside.

The court order shared earlier in this thread specified the children's father was supposed to report to the Salvation Army program, which from its website appears to be highly structured with daily sessions that are mandatory to attend. I think it's safe to assume he reported as required to the rehab and has remained there since.

 

[TMcgee]

MOO, someone was feed up with the way they viewed VB treated the children. They were not sure the children would be safe and they did something drastic that there is no coming back from. JK was collateral damage. MOO.

Like some others I feel more than one person is involved.

It’s also super common to dispute custody for money reasons, since the non-custodial parent is the one ordered to pay child support. IMO money could be a big motivator here.

 

[Gae]

I've always had the feeling that since it took days for LE to go from "suspicious disappearance" to "suspected foul play" that there wasn't as much evidence at the scene as we'd all like.

 

[carbuff]

Probably coincidence, but I find it interesting that this attack happened at a time when the dad apparently has a pretty much ironclad alibi. I know what I'd think if it was a murder mystery, but real life isn't usually like novels. Still it seems odd.