OR - Nine killed in Umpqua Community College shooting, Roseburg, 1 Oct 2015 - #2

[SophieRose]

You said it is up to the individual to 'grow up' and take care of themselves. And I said is that true also in the case of people with mental health issues? I know that my brother cannot fully care for himself. if my mother had not been so proactive he would have been dead or in prison, most likely.

I believe that a parent has a lifelong responsibility to their children if that child has mental/emotional disabilities. You cannot just wash your hands of them and walk away when they turn 18. JMO

ETA:
" ...but once you hit adulthood its on you to take care of yourself. "

I met a woman whose 20-something daughter was having mental problems. The mother took her to the hospital where she was admitted to the mental health unit. I'm not sure how long she was there but the mother was there when the daughter was diagnosed with bi-polar I. After that, the daughter did not want her mother visiting, did not want her mother in on the treatment plan. She was informed by the staff that her daughter was an adult and it was her daughter's decision not to include her and nothing could be done about it. I bet that happens frequently.

 

[La Louve]

"Cheyeanne Fitzgerald was taken to Mercy Medical Center and underwent surgery immediately, her family told KATU News.

Jessy Atkinson, her old brother, says she’s not quite herself. “I don't feel like she's doing as well as the others,” Atkinson said. She’s seen horrible things,” Atkinson said. “She has a lot until she feels mentally over that.”

Fitzgerald is now in fair condition."

Prayers for continued healing for Cheyeanne.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Brot...-Cheyeanne-Fitzgerald-roseburg-330592471.html

 

[La Louve]

"Students embraced, held hands and wiped away tears Monday as they returned to an Oregon community college for the first time since a gunman killed eight students and a teacher.

Classes do not resume until next week, but some students came to Umpua Community College to pick up belongings they left behind when they fled the shooting Thursday. Others met with professional groups to discuss their trauma and grief.

In a courtyard near the center of campus, a therapy dog sat on a blanket with its handler. A woman, crouched down, wiped away a tear."

Prayers for continued healing for the entire UCC family.


http://www.katu.com/news/local/Some...o-Oregon-campus-after-shooting-330780562.html

 

[sonjay]

I think he had character flaws. Self centered, narcissistic, entitled. I don't know. Are those mental health iseues? I guess NPD is.

He killed 9 people and shot -- what? 20 more? And he had "character flaws"?

Okay, fine, let's roll with that.

You think yet more gun control could prevent this sort of thing. What kind of gun control do you envision that would prevent someone with nothing but a few "character flaws" from acquiring a gun?

 

[KaaBoom]

1=== I disagree. Parenthood does not end at age 18. JMO

Legally it does. Lots of people just throw their kids out at 18, and that is their right to do that.

2.===I do not hold the father 'responsible' for the son's vile actions. But at the same time, the father does have a responsibility to be a father to his son. His son was struggling with pain, loneliness, feelings of abandonment. Maybe the father going off and starting a new family was partially the trigger for those painful emotions.

He did not have custody of his son. So all of that was out of his control. It's pretty obvious that he does not agree with how the mother was raising his son.

3. ===I am not blaming him. I am pushing back on his claim that it was 'the gun' that was the killer. Why hadn't he seen his son in 2 years? Why didn't he know the dire circumstances the son was in?

I would guess the reason he did not see his son for two years was because they decided to move to Oregon.

4. It was not the American gun culture that was at fault, imo. It was the son's mental health issues and his severe depression. Someone needed to help that young man.

If it was not for American gun culture, he would not have had the guns to carry out this terrible act. As for the need for better mental health, I don't disagree. I'm all for better mental health services. But that alone would not solve the problem. People can still commit gun crimes even while receiving mental health services, and many people just flat out refuse mental health services. So the only way to stop them, is to keep the guns away from them.

 

[KaaBoom]

So the father can just walk away and wash his hands of any responsibility for a troubled son?

How do you know that he walked away? They were the ones who moved away from him.

 

[sorrell skye]

He killed 9 people and shot -- what? 20 more? And he had "character flaws"?

Okay, fine, let's roll with that.

You think yet more gun control could prevent this sort of thing. What kind of gun control do you envision that would prevent someone with nothing but a few "character flaws" from acquiring a gun?

I think it's easier to blame a deranged individual than it is to honestly examine our violent culture. It's easier to blame guns than it is to examine our consumption of violence in all its forms.

It's human nature to eschew personal responsibility. As long as it's someone else's fault, we can continue to remain comfortable, but until we each accept personal responsibility for our violent culture, we are all responsible, IMO.

A Smashing Pumpkins song from the 90s, titled "Disarm":

"The killer in me is the killer in you"

[video=youtube;d1acEVmnVhI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1acEVmnVhI[/video]

 

[SophieRose]

Obviously the mental health care in the states is a joke, and changes have been long over due. And I agree all adults deserve to have their own life, however, his parents didn't divorce last year. They divorced when he was 16. I would love to know how involved his father was during this time period. That can be a very trying time for children, especially with divorce involved. I will always question parents who don't know what their kid is doing, at any age. My parents who divorced when I was 2 still call each other and talk about me! My parents weren't helicopter parents either, I moved out at 17, but best believe they always had their eyes on me.

It was reported that the divorce papers show that the parents separated in 1990, but the divorce was not finalized until 2006.

 

[KaaBoom]

This kid was an adult. He was well beyond doing what his father told him to do or not do. I can see saying the dad is responsible in some ways for how his son was raised, but once you hit adulthood its on you to take care of yourself. The dad didn't drive him to UCC and hold a gun to his head.

I'm not even sure how responsible he was for how his son was raised. It sounds like they got divorced pretty early on, and then he got remarried and had another family. He was probably not ever very involved with raising his son. He deferred that to the mother, and we see the results of that.

 

[KaaBoom]

And is it right?

It's doesn't matter if it is right or wrong, thats the way it is. Some people probably think it is right, others think it is wrong. Doesn't matter. Thats the way it is.

 

[Brightbird]

A 26 year old who was still living with his mother.....

O/T - I keep seeing this mentioned. Just curious, is that very unusual in the States? I wouldn't say it's very common in Australia, but it's not unusual either. A lot of 20 something people live with one or both parents while they work and save or study.

 

[sonjay]

Legally it does. Lots of people just throw their kids out at 18, and that is their right to do that.

He did not have custody of his son. So all of that was out of his control. It's pretty obvious that he does not agree with how the mother was raising his son.

I would guess the reason he did not see his son for two years was because they decided to move to Oregon.

<modsnip>As for the need for better mental health, I don't disagree. I'm all for better mental health services. But that alone would not solve the problem. People can still commit gun crimes even while receiving mental health services, and many people just flat out refuse mental health services. So the only way to stop them, is to keep the guns away from them.

<modsnip>

Also, based on his "manifesto," he was pretty determined to kill a lot of people, and he would have found a way to do it. He could probably find instructions for a pressure-cooker bomb on 4chan.

 

[ElleElle]

O/T - I keep seeing this mentioned. Just curious, is that very unusual in the States? I wouldn't say it's very common in Australia, but it's not unusual either. A lot of 20 something people live with one or both parents while they work and save or study.

I am not sure what the big deal is either. Alot of young adults live with their parents for a long time (early 30's) as they cannot afford to pay tuition or a mortgage/rent.

What I found odd is the mother is 64YO, and he is 26YO. She had him at a quite later age with no other children?

 

[KaaBoom]

He was diagnosed in childhood.

Source? Not that I doubt it, but it would be nice to have some confirmation of this.

 

[La Louve]

O/T - I keep seeing this mentioned. Just curious, is that very unusual in the States? I wouldn't say it's very common in Australia, but it's not unusual either. A lot of 20 something people live with one or both parents while they work and save or study.

It's more common than it was a generation or two ago.

 

[sonjay]

I'm not even sure how responsible he was for how his son was raised. It sounds like they got divorced pretty early on, and then he got remarried and had another family. He was probably not ever very involved with raising his son. He deferred that to the mother, and we see the results of that.

ITA. The notion that children -- especially sons, but also daughters -- don't need a father is wrong, and even dangerous. I would suspect that the lack of any meaningful father or father-figure in their lives plays a large role in the abnormal and anti-social development of many children. I believe that a lot of the dysfunction that we see today is due to that lack.

 

[La Louve]

I am not sure what the big deal is either. Alot of young adults live with their parents for a long time (early 30's) as they cannot afford to pay tuition or a mortgage/rent.

What I found odd is the mother is 64YO, and he is 26YO. She had him at a quite later age with no other children?

I don't think it's that big of a deal either, generally speaking. But I think it needs to be pointed out when posters say the mother had no influence on his relationship with his father. If the shooter had been living on his own, I wouldn't put so much influence in the hands of his mom. But from what I have read so far, it sounds very much an unhealthy relationship along the lines of the Lanza mother and son.

 

[human]

It's more common than it was a generation or two ago.

It is strange to me. The minute we hit 18 we were gone. I am retired. I cannot believe kids want to live with their parents.

 

[KaaBoom]

I doubt "shooting someone in a wheelchair" falls under any specific illness.

Psychopathy, and probably a few other things too.

 

[ElleElle]

ITA. The notion that children -- especially sons, but also daughters -- don't need a father is wrong, and even dangerous. I would suspect that the lack of any meaningful father or father-figure in their lives plays a large role in the abnormal and anti-social development of many children. I believe that a lot of the dysfunction that we see today is due to that lack.

Yes, I am one of those, so I know.