GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #4

[recyclops]

Totally absolutely OT but my team just won the World Series!!! Woot Woot!!!

 

[recyclops]

I agree! Thankfully, the majority of posters have been very respectful and kind in their comments. I know most want to focus on the case at hand and not some of the speculations and other religious questions that are occasionally cropping up.

Yes totally! I do think the mods are keeping a close eye on this thread and trying to maintain that respectful tone. But I agree, having a verified JW would be most helpful.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Any opinions are welcomed on this thought....the Holts were married in 2010, the Heichels married in 2011..Wondering if Holt asked WH out before she was married and she turned him down. Maybe Holt, as fragile a mind/emotional state that he has, maybe resented her, never getting over her..

Also did WH put a fight while at the Lake in the SUV...did LE check her nails for Holts skin if she tried clawing at him. Did Holt have any scratches on his face, arms, etc?

The ensuing days will tell us this...Am wondering if he didnt intend to kill her and only "scare her"...maybe he thought out she would submit to Holt like an affair to keep it quiet or else he would use force at any time he wanted...Then maybe Whitney struggled in the SUV, put up a good fight and Holt freaked and shot her...shooting her 4 times in such as brutal rage was his way of "fixing" her for good since she denied him of his dream/goal to be with her...he knew having Whitney wasnt happening..

Holt married his "longtime sweetheart" according to the news articles; he also converted to her faith to do so. Sounds to me like he loved Amanda.

 

[Ronso]

At some schools, a 3.35 GPA is not difficult to maintain. Do the work and show up to class and you're there.

Plus, you have no idea what classes he took, either. At my high school there were definitely the dumb classes and smart classes and in-between classes. If he carried a 3.75 taking honors and college courses, then yeah, I might be convinced he's not an idiot.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

No. I've seen your posts. I guess it's what you're NOT saying that has my curiosity.

Well, if it's any comfort, your curiosity is matched by my frustration in not being able to answer it.

 

[Salem]

Wow you guys - you sure kept the Mods hopping today with all the religious discussion. Next one that brings up the church or JW or any other religion is taking a vacation. Zero tolerance. Enough.

Also, there is to be no sleuthing of the wife, outside of MSM. That's it. It is not necessary to know what religion she is or isn't - nor do we need to know about her family, her schooling, her work, etc. Either link it up or leave it alone. ONLY two choices.

If you have questions, pm a mod and they will help you out.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

At some schools, a 3.35 GPA is not difficult to maintain. Do the work and show up to class and you're there.

Plus, you have no idea what classes he took, either. At my high school there were definitely the dumb classes and smart classes and in-between classes. If he carried a 3.75 taking honors and college courses, then yeah, I might be convinced he's not an idiot.

I have a degree in Special Ed with an emphasis in Gifted Ed. Believe me, I've seen the gamut. And, though this is just my opinion, I really don't want to split hairs about his course schedule. I believe with this achievement (even in an easy school) he was not moronic enough to take a plate off and leave it on the mountain so the body could be found, not stupid to enough to drive around town dropping evidence here, there, and everywhere, and not stupid enough to hide his smoking guns at his office and at the police station.

 

[JenniferO]

I have a degree in Special Ed with an emphasis in Gifted Ed. Believe me, I've seen the gamut. And, though this is just my opinion, I believe with this achievement (even in an easy school) he was not moronic enough to take a plate off and leave it on the mountain so the body could be found, not stupid to enough to drive around town dropping evidence here, there, and everywhere, and not stupid enough to hide his smoking guns at his office and at the police station.

I believe this man is a moron.. why am I convinced? Because he kidnapped, raped and murdered a woman (and then CONFESSED to it).

I'm sorry just because someone gets good grades in school doesn't make them "smart". Any person who will kill another innocent human (for nothing but his own pleasure) is an idiot regardless of his IQ

this is just my opinion

 

[Madeleine74]

I believe with this achievement (even in an easy school) he was not moronic enough to take a plate off and leave it on the mountain so the body could be found, not stupid to enough to drive around town dropping evidence here, there, and everywhere, and not stupid enough to hide his smoking guns at his office and at the police station.

Don't know about the license plate, but he did drop off/dump evidence and some of it was witnessed (i.e. dumpster @ Walmart), he did attempt to hide 2 guns and both were witnessed by police and then recovered, he threw away 2 cardboard boxes that had contained ammunition, and this was witnessed by another detective who had him under surveillance. Those facts are detailed in the affidavits. After dropping the guns he goes into the police station for his interview and confesses to the crime anyway.

This guy is smart? Not so much...

 

[newsjunkie]

I have a degree in Special Ed with an emphasis in Gifted Ed. Believe me, I've seen the gamut. And, though this is just my opinion, I really don't want to split hairs about his course schedule. I believe with this achievement (even in an easy school) he was not moronic enough to take a plate off and leave it on the mountain so the body could be found, not stupid to enough to drive around town dropping evidence here, there, and everywhere, and not stupid enough to hide his smoking guns at his office and at the police station.

Slightly OT . . .I recently watched an episode of mythbusters about slapping sense back into someone as is seen often in movies. Someone is hysterical and they get slapped and then are able to calm down.

To test the myth, a Dr. told them that hypothermia would create similar brain responses to being in an unstable state of mind. They performed physical and mental tasks in three phases. Good condition, after being in an iced environment, and after being slapped.

They could not maintain their level of reasoning or physical capabilities in that state of mind. (after being slapped they did better, but still not at normal levels.)

***My point. . .JH could not have been in his right mind. Therefore, he could have done things we view as stupid, but at his reasoning level at the time seemed to him to absolutely be the right thing to do. JMO

 

[msthinksalot]

Thanks for your good comments, msthinksalot...

(I'm having problems with the multi-quote, so will try the old-fashioned way).

[*]This comment about the utility vehicle being that of a worker taking his/her lunch is very plausible. I've stopped and had lunch in my car at the far end of a parking lot many times. But, Holt had just murdered someone, disposed of her body and is driving around in a stolen car with blood stains and a fully open window (it was cold and rainy that Tues) trying to ditch it and he's anxious as all get-out -- so he'd avoid parking near unfamiliar cars, especially a parked vehicle where someone is sitting in the driver's seat eating lunch. He'd keep his distance. The tree didn't block surveillance of the SUV driving in and backing into the parking space; it didn't block the view of the utility vehicle parked in the same area -- but it somehow blocked the view of Holt's exit from the SUV, the direction he took, and any action that may have occurred between the two vehicles. If the cars were even 3 parking spaces apart that's a huge tree canopy. If you get a chance, get on Google Earth streetview and take a look at that area. Reporting that a tree blocked the camera -- even mounted any distance from any direction -- and compromised the surveillance between the two vehicles seems not plausible. Hard to imagine Walmart would allow a large area of their parking lot to go un-monitored. If I get a chance I'll drive by the parking area.
[/LIST]
Excerpt: "given the fact that he had no phone... we would have to consider that he would have had to have had the person's phone number memorized and that he had to track down a payphone (and those are actually kind of hard to find these days, I've noticed)."

• We actually don't know that Holt had no phone on him. He threw into Roslyn Lake the phone he had been using that he stole from Clinton in August. That doesn't mean he went without a phone that morning. Before he had Clint's phone he could have also had a cheap no-contract $15/month phone with all the necessary numbers at hand.

SBM...

Those are totally valid points.

I drove by that Walmart on the Friday evening after Whitney vanished, but it was already dark. I think I got there right around 9pm. I didn't go in that first entrance off NE Sandy, because I didn't realize I'd already arrived, so I went in the larger entrance... I think it's the next one down, right next to the bus stop. I noticed cameras all along the roof of the building and cameras on some light poles once you turn left or right at the end of this sort of median thing (if you don't drive straight forward towards the building upon entering the parking lot, if that makes sense?). Those seemed to be pointed to catch the front view of your vehicle as you turned, but I don't recall seeing them facing towards the street or that particular corner of the parking lot. BUT... I was actually feeling pretty sketched out and I was by myself, so I didn't drive all the way to that corner. :blushing:

I'm curious how many cameras are there, pointing that direction (NW). You are right that it seems odd that Walmart would not have every inch of their parking lot covered by cameras. The only way that I could imagine a tree blocking the view would be if they had to use surveillance footage from the cameras on the top of the store. It is so far back from that corner of the lot that I could image the foliage on the top of the trees could possibly block or obscure the view.

I was approaching it as an extremely odd coincidence, an impeccably-timed odd coincidence. But you are right that it does open the door for some questions, because it also isn't clear in that report that he was caught on surveillance exiting the vehicle and walking away... or that they even know where he went from the moment he parked the vehicle. With that particular parking spot, he would have had to walk a fair distance to disappear beyond the bushes on NE Sandy heading west, or a similar amount of distance to walk to the bus stop if he was heading east. I wonder if the cameras on the front of the building can see that far? Unless he climbed out the back and made a mad dash across the street... but he would need impeccable timing for that, too, because that's a busy stretch right there.

RE: the phones... you are totally right. I completely got lost on my own train of thought there. In addition to having a disposable, I realize he could also have used good old fashioned pen and paper to write down any numbers he may need, duh.

I'd love to check out that lot again, now. I'm really curious about the cameras, or lack thereof.

 

[Sasquatch]

And yes, the Febreze might have been in her car--which I posted a few pages back will be easy enough to prove if it has her fingerprints on it. I was only expressing difficulty with the idea that they lifted "a fingerprint" off the bottle. It it was his bottle and not Whitney's, I just couldn't see him marching into Walmart (or wherever) after the crime, with blood splatter all over his shirt from shooting her at close range...and checking out with a bottle of Febreze.

I would have to agree that the Febreze was already in the back of Whitney's SUV. I see the Febreze as being part of the wedding supplies for the upcoming wedding, along with the 16 wedding linens. With Oregon's Willamette Valley weather, sometimes stored linens and towels can become musty with the higher humidity and if stored in colder dark places. Especially if the linens are not being used every week. Febreze makes a great way to spruce up linens.:twocents:

According to page 22 of 44 of the Search Seizure Order (holt1.pdf) it mentions about the 16 linens:
"I know from speaking with Detective Huffman, that spoke with Whitney Heichel's mother, Lorilee Ritmiller, that she told him there were 16 white linens in the vehicle, that were going to be used for a weeding(misspelled in report , but meant to say wedding) this coming weekend."

 

[Neptune]

-snipped by me-

I wanted to comment on this portion of your discussion. If we are talking about a camera that is on the Wal-Mart building, a tree that is towards the front of the parking lot, and the vehicles in question at the back of the parking lot. Isn't it possible that the object in the front of the video would block more of something in the back of the image than if the tree were closer to the vehicles? Do my ramblings make sense?

Thank you, NJ, I thought of this and remembered the "perspective" lessons a thousand years ago in art class -- you have to keep size and distance in mind while you imagine viewing something. Here was the answer I gave myself on this thought you raised: No point in the having the expense of surveillance if you allow a tree or trees to block a large area you want monitored. If you get a chance, get on Bing maps and plug in 45°32'34.12"N 122°25'21.07"W (that's all you need -- it will take you right to where Holt parked her SUV) -- view the area through Bing's Bird's Eye option, toggle around for different angles and ask yourself, what tree is blocking the view of only the space between Whitney's SUV that was parked in front of the lamp post (yellow base, parking slots abutt Sandy Blvd) and whereever that utility vehicle was in the Northwest parking area.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I believe this man is a moron.. why am I convinced? Because he kidnapped, raped and murdered a woman (and then CONFESSED to it).

I'm sorry just because someone gets good grades in school doesn't make them "smart". Any person who will kill another innocent human (for nothing but his own pleasure) is an idiot regardless of his IQ

this is just my opinion

We have different approaches, I guess, as well as different usages for the word moron. You've already tried and convicted the guy before the trial, where a lot of evidence and unexpected lines of questioning could come out. Not sure if you saw my earlier post, but even if a guy confesses to a crime, it doesn't mean he by necessity DID do it. Even if a guy confesses to doing it, the court has to prove/agree he did it by a careful examination of the evidence at trial.

Just an aside: I am more apt to lean towards believing a confession from someone who comes across as a hardened case; I'm much less apt to take without question a confession from someone who is clearly emotionally broken and confused.

 

[Neptune]

SBM...

Those are totally valid points.

I drove by that Walmart on the Friday evening after Whitney vanished, but it was already dark. I think I got there right around 9pm. I didn't go in that first entrance off NE Sandy, because I didn't realize I'd already arrived, so I went in the larger entrance... I think it's the next one down, right next to the bus stop. I noticed cameras all along the roof of the building and cameras on some light poles once you turn left or right at the end of this sort of median thing (if you don't drive straight forward towards the building upon entering the parking lot, if that makes sense?). Those seemed to be pointed to catch the front view of your vehicle as you turned, but I don't recall seeing them facing towards the street or that particular corner of the parking lot.

<Snipped for space>

Great comments, msthinksalot... It wouldn't surprise me if the ambiguous language (because "utility vehicles" appear to be similar to golf carts), a bit of subterfuge on the part of their knowledge (a "tree blocking our view"), and the missing surveillance detail on the affidavit is the part of the Heichel/Holt tragic story that LE/DOJ is working on now. I get it -- they can't say everything they know.

If you happen to shop at that WalMart soon, do you mind taking a gander to see if there are pay phones on the NE strip mall area? The timeline from Holt leaving the dumpster, going past the front of Walmart toward the strip mall, and returning back to the Northwest parking area may have been him roaming around trying to find a pay phone for the "Hey, buddy, I'm at WalMart where are you?" sort of conversation.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Thank you, NJ, I thought of this and remembered the "perspective" lessons a thousand years ago in art class -- you have to keep size and distance in mind while you imagine viewing something. Here was the answer I gave myself on this thought you raised: No point in the having the expense of surveillance if you allow a tree or trees to block a large area you want monitored. If you get a chance, get on Bing maps and plug in 45°32'34.12"N 122°25'21.07"W (that's all you need -- it will take you right to where Holt parked her SUV) -- view the area through Bing's Bird's Eye option, toggle around for different angles and ask yourself, what tree is blocking the view of only the space between Whitney's SUV that was parked in front of the lamp post (yellow base, parking slots abutt Sandy Blvd) and whereever that utility vehicle was in the Northwest parking area.

I was struck by how small the bushes appeared in that map compared to how much larger they are today. The trees (on those parking islands) may have also grown a tad between the time this satellite view was captured and today.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Question: (Bing Map Neptune supplied):

Why, of all the spaces he could have parked in did the guy park the van under the street light?

 

[gwenabob]

As for an accomplice, my take is it's possible. The "mystery utility" vehicle that left the parking lot. <modsnip>
And the question where did Holt stay when he left his wife to "clear his head", <modsnip>.

He didn't "stay" anywhere. He took off at noon and came home just after midnight. We don't know where he went or what he did all that time, but he did not spend any whole night away from home.

 

[Ronso]

I believe with this achievement (even in an easy school) he was not moronic enough to take a plate off and leave it on the mountain so the body could be found, not stupid to enough to drive around town dropping evidence here, there, and everywhere, and not stupid enough to hide his smoking guns at his office and at the police station.

I don't know... my brother in law graduated top of his class, with a bachelors in computer science, and he believes cats have conferences.

A girl in one of my science classes who carried a 4.0 once asked, "Moonrocks? Are those, like, rocks from the moon?"

I stand firm that a complete imbecile can carry a 3.35 GPA in most American schools.

 

[JoCoKSEyes]

I'm sorry, I'm not usually this lazy or put of the loop on these threads, but will someone please explain where this business about JH stealing a phone from CH is coming from? Is this just a rumor or has it been stated in police reports or MSM?

Thanks in advance for bringing this sleuther up to speed!