GUILTY OR - Whitney Heichel, 21, Gresham, 16 Oct 2012 #5

[Sasquatch]

Some Roslyn Lake area info in the news:

Today in the Oregonian was an article about the some of the land surrounding Roslyn Lake - PGE park and the old school is located on West Thomas Rd. You can see some of PGE Park in my photos. It is located on the West Shore of Roslyn Lake and there is an old school that is located on the other side of the Trees:

http://www.oregonlive.com/gresham/index.ssf/2012/12/the_century-old_bull_run_power.html

The TV series Grimm had an episode that aired on 10/28/2011, titled Episode 1: "Little Red Riding Hood". It was filmed at Roslyn Lake:

http://www.mysouthwaterfront.com/2011/10/grimm-film-locations-in-portland.html

"Cabin in the Woods - I received some info from a reader regarding the location of this cabin (where Little Red Riding Hood is kept in the basement), at the now-drained Roslyn Lake in Sandy, OR"..........
..."I believe the cabin was originally built for a scene in the movie "Bandits" back when there was still a lake there. Then they just left the building sitting there by the lake, right next to the parking lot. The Grimm crews were all over that lake area prior to the pilot, filming at night. Rumors of future uses of the now-non-lake include larger habitat area for the elephants from the Oregon Zoo. Just rumors, though."

 

[Xavier]

One thing that I forgot to mention, about my trip to Thomas Road and South Roslyn Lake, is about the farm dogs. As you turn left off of Lusted Road onto Thomas Road, there is an open field on your right (South side). The field goes East, up to the grove of trees. When I was driving down the road, these two yellow farm dogs (probably Labs) were running in that field barking at my car. I wonder if the dogs started barking and running around, if they heard gunshots that morning, and if that commotion might have made JH take off and head to Larch Mtn?

Here is a photo showing the far East end of the field, on the right side, where the dogs were running:

Here is a better shot of the field where the dogs were, with the Lavender Orbs (the tree grove is exactly South of the Roslyn Lake Turnout):

Looking down (West) from the turnout, the field with the farm dogs is on the left. This is the view from the West end of the turnout:

Here is the link to the 40 photos from the Roslyn December trip if you haven't seen them yet, or if you wanted to download them in a higher resolution (click album link, then click on a photo to make it bigger, then go to the Options menu above it and choose download) All 40 photos were taken in the late morning before noon, for a time reference:
http://s1294.beta.photobucket.com/user/Sasquatch60/library/Roslyn%20December

Great photos SasQuatch. Definitely a clear day. The next time you stop out there, say a prayer for the families involved.

 

[Glow]

That cabin is so cozy looking with the huge trees all around it. I have never seen such huge trees!

 

[Glow]

Thinking....

IF JH had an obsession with WH, then why wouldn't he just convey that to LE during his confession? I mean, he volunteered that he killed her, that he sexually assaulted her, that he had child *advertiser censored*, etc. Why wouldn't he just explain that he was "in love" with her? He spilled his guts on everything else. Why wouldn't he share his "justification" for abducting her if he was "obsessed"? Why keep that part a secret?

Then again, we only know what LE has chosen to share with the general public. But it seems to me, if LE knew of an outright motivation such as obsession, they would have shared it. Also, as someone else posted, if there was an obsession, wouldn't other people close to WH have noticed this, especially CH? Wouldn't his wife have sniffed out his unusual preoccupation with WH?

Also, I wonder about JH's attendance record at the JW Hall. He was there the Sunday before, wasn't he? And he had done service within the past few months? What does it take to qualify as an "irregular" attender? I guess that's a rhetorical question since we're not allowed to discuss the JW aspect of his life, but I do wonder if the label was justified.

That raises a good point. I believe it was originally the family spokesperson that who described JH as an "irregular attendee". I of course, dont know what measurement was used to come to that conclusion but I can see how it could be a highly subjective one.

Just as an example, I am on a little committee in my town. The head of our committee is late for our board meetings about half the time. I will say probably just to convert it in to a term of measurement, that she is late about 55% of the time. That means she is on time or early 45% of the time. Unfortunately, especially for people who are real sticklers about time, if they were asked, they would say the committee head is late "ALL" the time. And some have said that actually LOL.

It isnt true that she is late "all" the time. She is on time almost half the time but that gets over looked.

So maybe that is how the opinion on JH goes....maybe he is sporadic in an organization that values regularity, thus creating the subjective opinion that he was "irregular" maybe?

 

[Glow]

Hi Desi :seeya:

I sure appreciate all that info in your post. I ws especially struck by the part below...

Delusional stalkers choose victims who are unattainable in some way; the victim may be already involved in a relationship; frequently it is someone who has been kind to them; a therapist, clergyman, doctor, work supervisor, teacher, or even the police officer who stopped them for a traffic violation but did not cite them.

I am not confident either kodi! I have eliminated some angles in my own mind but I am not able to point confidently at a motive yet. I guess I feel like I am sifting..........all the posts and input is really helpful though, isnt it?

I am struggling with this myself; I'm not as confident as I once was she was his obsession.

The concepts and theories that everyone here contributes are invaluable as they give us so many different perspectives and push us to think outside the box...well, for me at least. And for that, I thank each and every one of you. *smiles*

Thanks as always for the links Sasquatch, you contribute and help SO much on this thread!

A few of the media outlets, were reporting that the court documents show that Holt was obsessed with WH. For example a local news radio station KXL reported:

"Court documents reveal that obsession led to the murder of a Gresham woman"

http://www.kxl.com/10/23/12/Holt-Was-Obsessed-with-Whitney-Heichel/landing.html?blockID=642129&feedID=10446

I have been looking through the court documents, and I can not find specific evidence of an ongoing obsession with WH. I see JH as an individual who falls more into committing crimes of opportunity, based on his anger and impulse.


I am curious to find out if they do have actual evidence, other than KGW's source, pointing to JH's obsession of WH.

Do you Sasquatch or anyone else have any thoughts on why the call to Starbucks was at 6 but the data usage that Amber found when she called after she thought the phone was stolen was at 7? Are they the same thing, data usage and a call? Why are the times different?

 

[Xavier]

I checked into any traits of people who collect child *advertiser censored*.. Depressing subject matter.

We don't really know IF Holt actually had child *advertiser censored* collected. So just speculating, I'm wondering was Holt introduced to child *advertiser censored* by someone or did he find it on his own?

I found this characterization of a child *advertiser censored* collector interesting:

"Almost all pedophiles have a collection of *advertiser censored*, which they protect at all costs. Many of them also collect "souvenirs" from their victims. They rarely discard either their *advertiser censored* or collections for any reason.

(Holt seemed to never be without his trusty backpack, guns, laptops, hi tech storage devices....keeping this away from his wife? And I read somewhere LE confiscated his house safe? Is that correct?)

Often the pedophile is male and over 30 years of age.
Single or with few friends in his age group.
If married, the relationship is more "companion" based with no sexual relations.
He is often vague about time gaps in employment which may indicate a loss in employment for questionable reasons or possible past incarceration."

 

[Glow]

I checked into any traits of people who collect child *advertiser censored*.. Depressing subject matter.

We don't really know IF Holt actually had cild *advertiser censored* collected. So just speculating, I'm wondering was Holt introduced to child *advertiser censored* by someone or did he find it on his own?

I found this characterization of a child *advertiser censored* collector interesting:

"Almost all pedophiles have a collection of pronography, which they protect at all costs. Many of them also collect "souvenirs" from their victims. They rarely discard either their *advertiser censored* or collections for any reason.

Often the pedophile is male and over 30 years of age.
Single or with few friends in his age group.
If married, the relationship is more "companion" based with no sexual relations.

He is often vague about time gaps in employment which may indicate a loss in employment for questionable reasons or possible past incarceration."

Big :what: on that last one! Wasnt expecting that AT ALL.

 

[La Louve]

Is anyone else having trouble using the "quote" feature? For two days now when I click on the quote button of a post, I end up getting a different post quoted above my attempted reply.

Anyway, O/T but another interesting synchronicity (from my perspective) about those lavender orbs is the day they appeared on Sasquatch's photo, December 5th. December 5th was 50 days after Whitney died. In Tibetan Buddhism the time a soul spends in between lives is 49 days (the "bardo"). It is taught that during those 49 days one should not speak or think sadly about the departed, as it keeps the person's spirit earthbound and connected to their mourners, instead of going on to their next life. If all goes well, on the 50th day the soul departs the bardo for its next incarnation.

 

[Sasquatch]

Great photos SasQuatch. Definitely a clear day. The next time you stop out there, say a prayer for the families involved.

Thank you! We haven't had too many clear days this past month. I am glad the sun decided to come out, when I had some time to go out there! Next time I go out there, I will for sure, say another prayer for the families!

 

[Sasquatch]

Thanks as always for the links Sasquatch, you contribute and help SO much on this thread!

You are welcome! Thank you! It is my pleasure to share what ever information that I can find!

Do you Sasquatch or anyone else have any thoughts on why the call to Starbucks was at 6 but the data usage that Amber found when she called after she thought the phone was stolen was at 7? Are they the same thing, data usage and a call? Why are the times different?

I think that the 6:08am time for the phone call, would be the most accurate since it was documented by LE and the report did not mention a documented 7am call. Amanda (AH) most likely spoke with a customer service rep at AT&T, and there was probably a mistake with the exact time given or AH rounded the time up. I just Googled that Starbucks, and it says that they open at 5am. So it is highly likely JH talked to someone at that Starbucks when he called at 6:08am. Maybe that is part of the evidence that the DA has, showing JH's premeditation. They are keeping their lips sealed, so we do not know the whole story.

As far as the data usage. Data is different than a call on an iPhone. Data includes streaming music, web browser, sending photos or video or using an app, like a GPS Map app. LE did not document the data usage time. AH mentioned the data usage time in her statement. It could be that JH googled the Starbucks phone number to call, or he could have even Googled the Trimet Max schedule. We do not know exactly what data he was using. There is a method of hooking your iPad up to your iPhone to get internet service, called tethering, but that is a bit of overkill in itself, because an iPhone can already do those simple procedures. If JH did actually call at 6:08am and the data usage is at 7am, then maybe he was using Google Maps, trying to find out how to get out to Roslyn Lake while they were in WH's SUV. If JH was using a program on how to get to Roslyn Lake, he might have thrown the iPhone onto the berm (he thought it was into a lake) to get rid of evidence of mapping that location. Mapping out his route, would show another level of premeditation.

You will notice on the report from the 44 page doc, that there was a phone call that did not connect to WH's phone, then at 8:39am it suddenly gets connected. The reason is because there are some areas with a spotty signal between Dodge Park and Roslyn Lake, depending on the carrier.
I used to have to wait to use my cell phone sometimes when I was going fishing, and going from Roslyn Lake down to Dodge Park, because my phone didn't have a signal. The information of no signal connection, might even give LE a time frame of when WH's SUV was going between Dodge Park and Roslyn Lake.

Info on tethering:
http://ipod.about.com/od/iphonehowtos/a/Tethering-Ipad-Iphone.htm

 

[Sasquatch]

Is anyone else having trouble using the "quote" feature? For two days now when I click on the quote button of a post, I end up getting a different post quoted above my attempted reply.

The quote feature is working fine for me. Have you tried a different browser, emptying your cache or restarting the computer? I am not sure what the cause of that could be.

Anyway, O/T but another interesting synchronicity (from my perspective) about those lavender orbs is the day they appeared on Sasquatch's photo, December 5th. December 5th was 50 days after Whitney died. In Tibetan Buddhism the time a soul spends in between lives is 49 days (the "bardo"). It is taught that during those 49 days one should not speak or think sadly about the departed, as it keeps the person's spirit earthbound and connected to their mourners, instead of going on to their next life. If all goes well, on the 50th day the soul departs the bardo for its next incarnation.

Wow!!! Thank you La Louve, for this great information! Wonderful synchronicity!

 

[Sasquatch]

That cabin is so cozy looking with the huge trees all around it. I have never seen such huge trees!

I agree, that cabin does look cozy with those tall trees! I have never been to that cabin, I have only seen it in photos. Once they drained Roslyn Lake they closed off access to the camp grounds.

The first cabin photo with water is from this site:
http://www.bryanjphotography.com/galleries/Landscapes/slides/Roslyn-Lake.html
The second cabin photo is from this site:
http://www.mysouthwaterfront.com/2011/10/grimm-film-locations-in-portland.html

About four years ago, they still had water in the lake. It was a beautiful place to fish and enjoy the trees and outdoors. When they drained the lake, it was a sad moment. Nobody was sure what was going to happen to the area. After reading The Oregonian article today, it makes me feel a little bit better that they have sold the Bull Run Powerhouse, The campground ( including the trees in the photos) and the old school, to a company that will preserve those areas. If they sold the campground to a different company, those trees might have been harvested. I am glad PGE took the time to sell that property to someone who will preserve the beauty of that area.

 

[La Louve]

The quote feature is working fine for me. Have you tried a different browser, emptying your cache or restarting the computer? I am not sure what the cause of that could be.

Clearing the cache and restarting did the trick. :great: Thanks for the suggestions!

Wow!!! Thank you La Louve, for this great information! Wonderful synchronicity!

Pretty cool, huh?

 

[Xavier]

The quote feature is working fine for me. Have you tried a different browser, emptying your cache or restarting the computer? I am not sure what the cause of that could be.



Wow!!! Thank you La Louve, for this great information! Wonderful synchronicity!

Louve try going to RUN PROGRAM down by the START tab and type in CLEANMGR. This clears excess cookies, files for the day, frees up storage

Also CLEAR HISTORY helps alot too

 

[caffeinejean]

Hi iamnotagolem :seeya: glad to see new posters jumping in on this thread! :twocents:

I agree with you that the Judds were key to starting the ball rolling with bringing JH and LE together.

They didnt give up when they initially asked him to get in the car and he refused. Instead Evan Judd got out and walked with him while Amanda Judd drove the car beside them (or maybe parked and let the car idle) then they finally persuaded him to get in the car. When they got him home they had to "get him" to tell his wife his "story". Amanda Judd said she even had to bump him on the shoulder to get him to start talking to his wife about the supposed robbery! And yes, that is all what lead to the robbery getting reported to LE and that first interview with JH.

I dont know if you have seen it but there is a copy of that interview here:

http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holt1.pdf

This link was posted waaay back on this thread so I thought I would re post for anyone who hasnt seen it of who doest want to go back and look for it (that would be me) :blushing:

Wanted to add the Friday night (Oct. 19th 10pm) Gresham Police presser audio, although brief, lends emotion and timeline to the transcripts.
Audio is toward the bottom of the article... friday press release

Whitney Heichel's Accused Killer Knew Her - freedom970.com
http://www.freedom970.com/10/17/12/...-Her/landing.html?blockID=641075#cmnta_641075

 

[Sasquatch]

Clearing the cache and restarting did the trick. :great: Thanks for the suggestions!

Pretty cool, huh?

You are welcome! Thank you! I am glad your computer is up and posting correctly now! 50 days is real cool. I would have never known that, if you didn't point that out and explain the meaning. It definitely adds more meaning to the journey and the photos!

 

[Sasquatch]

That raises a good point. I believe it was originally the family spokesperson that who described JH as an "irregular attendee". I of course, dont know what measurement was used to come to that conclusion but I can see how it could be a highly subjective one.

So maybe that is how the opinion on JH goes....maybe he is sporadic in an organization that values regularity, thus creating the subjective opinion that he was "irregular" maybe?

I believe that the Gresham KH meets on Sundays and Tuesdays. I am not sure what "Irregular Attendee" means either, since I have never attended a congregation meeting before. It might mean that Regular Attendees are required to go to both meetings every week, and "Irregular Attendees" are sporadic attenders as you had mentioned above.

From the evidence that I have gathered, JH most likely converted to JW to marry AH. I noticed a photo from an unnamed local source, of one of JH's parents wearing a cross pendant. JWs do not wear crosses or have crosses inside their KH. So from what I have gathered, is it is likely JH, grew up in a different religion, or at least had a parent from a different religion. This might explain the "Irregular Attendee" statement. It is different if you grow up in a certain religion or belief system, than if you are newly converted. Growing up in one, and being exposed to it, means it has already been an integrated part of your life. Converting to a different belief system, or even a new job for that matter, requires you to learn a new culture, as well as learn how to operate within that new system. From a Psychological standpoint, there might have been problems with JH adapting to a new set of rules and expectations. Everything might have been different, from what he was used to growing up. There is a learning curve with any big change in life such as jobs, religion or even getting married. Within a two year time period, JH most likely changed religions, got married, had many jobs, went to school, moved a few times and I am sure the list goes on. "Irregular Attendee" might mean that JH had went against the system and refused to change, as he had shown in the other areas of his life.

One term that comes to mind is "Cognitive Dissonance".

"Dissonance theory suggests that if individuals act in ways that contradict their beliefs, then they typically will change their beliefs to align with their actions (or vice-a-versa)."

http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2008/10/19/fighting-cognitive-dissonance-the-lies-we-tell-ourselves/


If JH did not find his wife, new church, employers or even society in support of his actions (like child *advertiser censored*), then he most likely turned to the internet to find people that supported this type of dysfunctional behavior. It seems that JH created his own belief system, away from any church. He seemed to go to church when he wanted to, worked when he wanted to and spent money how he wanted to without regard for the people around him. With his new belief system, he most likely spent all of his time with his online *advertiser censored* and his online contacts that fed and supported his addiction. Both JH and his wife probably had little financial security because of this. JH went from job to job, and probably quit trying to secure a position as an EMT. Fantasy seemed to take over reality in JH's new (self-made) belief system.

 

[newsjunkie]

In regards to the irregular attendee label, I believe that would be put on someone who was not there about as often as they were there.

No one is perfect and everyone is going to miss from time to time. Obviously, people are going to miss due to sickness, travel arrangements, or other special circumstances.

I personally know someone who hasn't been to a local meeting in over a month. She has a family member with a terminal illness that she is caring for. No one would label her a irregular attendee.

It is the person who decides to miss cause they just don't feel like going, who gets into the habit of staying home as much or more than they go. Often times it is the person that you are surprised to see walk through the door. Those are your irregular attendees.

 

[Xavier]

So many great posts lately. Thanks for all the great thoughts and efforts.

The more I read about all the documented dumb things JH did, I am beginning to suspect the simple truth of this is that JH is just not the brightest bulb in the box.

And I am going to go to bed tonight thinking those lovely lavender orbs in Sasquatch's photo were from Whitney. Bless.

Louve, Holt's ship was'nt anchored...no he was'nt that bright at crime

 

[iamnotagolem]

Hi iamnotagolem :seeya: glad to see new posters jumping in on this thread! :twocents:

I agree with you that the Judds were key to starting the ball rolling with bringing JH and LE together.

They didnt give up when they initially asked him to get in the car and he refused. Instead Evan Judd got out and walked with him while Amanda Judd drove the car beside them (or maybe parked and let the car idle) then they finally persuaded him to get in the car. When they got him home they had to "get him" to tell his wife his "story". Amanda Judd said she even had to bump him on the shoulder to get him to start talking to his wife about the supposed robbery! And yes, that is all what lead to the robbery getting reported to LE and that first interview with JH.

I dont know if you have seen it but there is a copy of that interview here:

http://media.oregonlive.com/gresham_impact/other/holt1.pdf

This link was posted waaay back on this thread so I thought I would re post for anyone who hasnt seen it of who doest want to go back and look for it (that would be me) :blushing:

I've read the entire document. I've followed this case from the beginning but have held off commenting when the topics mainly revolved around supporting the confessed killer.