Oscar Pistorius Defense

[BritsKate]

I bet extreme narcissists like OP are also pathological liars, even when lying harms them. OP may feel compelled to lie whenever he senses control of a situation is slipping away from him. OP hearing the toilet door slam shut, didn't make an appearance until OP was on the stand. Asked why it wasn't in either the bail affi or plea statement by Nel, OP blamed his lawyers for not including it. OP is a congenital liar who lies effortlessly whenever he feels cornered.

In a sense, I think they believe lying never harms them because they're totally impervious to culpability. My ex would lie over very small things, very big things, lie on top of lies when caught out and one of his last defences was to blame me, my family, or our kids for him being 'forced' to lie in the first place. He'd just blame-shift, or gaslight ('No, I never said what you heard me say') to make it not ever his fault. If that too failed he'd try to incur sympathy or provoke guilt over why I ever questioned his credibility in the first place. And if all else failed, he'd use his anger - giving me the silent treatment, glaring at me until I either backed down or if I didn't, it would provoke a rage. Oddly, post-rage I was no longer all that concerned with what he'd been lying about in the first place.


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[Carmelita]

BIB That is the first sound that OP says he heard, the window sliding open. So at that moment he dropped the jeans and armed himself and slooowly went down the hall like a Ninja, deliberate with every move. The trouble is time. There was not enough time from when he dropped the jeans and fired four bullets for Reeva to have opened the window, entered the WC, closed the door, locked the door, emptied her bladder, finished up, pulled up her shorts, heard OP yelling "Get the freak out of my house," moved the mag rack and producing a "wood sound," moved to the left of the WC at the precise moment that she also moved the mag rack, and then be blasted with four bullets through the door. Not enough time for all of that to have happened.

Reeva could have emptied her bladder before she closed/opened the window.

The time line does not make Oscar's version impossible.

 

[DebinGA]

Bail affi - noise in bathroom
Plea statement - noise in bathroom was a window sliding open
OP under oath - bathroom window slid open, hit the frame hard, sound was loud and clear.

I wonder if Nel could test OP's window-hitting-frame testimony during this break and introduce tests refuting OP's new claim?

 

[james83]

Reeva could have emptied her bladder before she closed the window.

The time line does not make Oscar's version impossible.

And I suppose if you believe all the incredibly unlikely things in his version, you also believe it's possible that 6 things were moved before photos were take just to incriminate him before anyone actually knew his version.

 

[BritsKate]

1

imo you are right, dr stipp is seen as a nemesis by op.

dr stipp > ear and eye witness > saw the bathroom light on > alerted security > takes responsibility, brave, came to the scene himself > pronounced rs dead > does the right thing, credible on the stand > a doctor. highly qualified professional, relevant experience, people look up to him. people believe him.



op could be thinking, without dr stipp... no baba... no police... no court case... no nel.



2

re: your npd comment, and further to 'narcissistic supply' below is a good fit for the op/rs relationship, 'not so?':



Narcissistic abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Adult relationships[edit]

Narcissistic abuse may also occur in adult-to-adult relationships, where the narcissistic person tends to seek out a successful (independent, educated, and attractive) yet co-dependent (empathic, excessively compliant, and forgiving) partner in order to "mirror" the behavior the narcissistic person lacks (e.g., empathy). In this way a dynamic of abuser and victim is created.[24]

Their relationships are characterized by a period of intense involvement and idealization of their partner, followed by devaluation, and a rapid discarding of the partner.[25] At the beginning of a relationship with a narcissist, the partner is only shown the ideal self of the narcissist, which includes pseudo empathy, kindness, and charm. Once the partner has committed to the relationship (e.g., through marriage or a business partnership), the true self of the narcissist will begin to emerge. The initial narcissistic abuse begins with belittling comments and grows to contempt, ignoring behavior, adultery, sabotage, and, at times, physical abuse.[26] At the core of a narcissist is a combination of entitlement and low self-esteem. These feelings of inadequacy are projected onto the victim. If the narcissistic person is feeling unattractive they will belittle their romantic partner's appearance. If the narcissist makes an error, this error becomes the their partner's fault.[27] Narcissists also engage in insidious, manipulative abuse by giving subtle hints and comments that result in the victim questioning their own behavior and thoughts. This is termed gaslighting.[28] Any slight criticism of the narcissistic, whether actual or perceived, often triggers narcissistic rage and full blown annihilation from the narcissistic person. This can take the form of screaming tirades or quiet sabotage (setting traps, hiding belongings, spreading rumors, etc). The discard phase can be swift and occurs once the narcissistic supply is obtained elsewhere. In romantic relationships, the narcissistic supply can be acquired by having affairs. The new partner is in the idealization phase and only witnesses the ideal self; thus once again the cycle of narcissistic abuse begins. Narcissists do not take responsibility for relationship difficulties and exhibit no feeling of remorse. Instead they believe themselves to be the victim in the relationship.[citation needed]

This is very true. I used to say my ex hated most the very things that attracted him to me initially. A very good example, if Oscar is NPD would be something like this: Initially, he is attracted to Reeva's warmth and kindness. He enjoys watching people admire her because, in his mind, her being with him reaffirms how wonderful he is. How great he must be to have this smart, beautiful, and sweet woman on his arm. How lucky is she! But when people start paying her more attention than him, it becomes problematic, and instead of seeing her as graceful or ingratiating, she becomes a *advertiser censored* who is flirting with anything with a pulse. She becomes an embarrassment.

My ex used to rage every single Christmas because our families either spent too little money on gifts for him or bought our children more presents than they bought for him. I'm seriously not joking. One of my worst memories was him doing 100 mph on the highway Christmas Eve when our children were in the backseat, still in infant seats. All because he hadn't gotten his own way.

I don't mean to paint all disordered people with the same brush, but I struggle to see those afflicted with NPD, or a comorbid variation to include it, as anything other than highly poisonous and extremely dangerous. I think they destroy everything and everyone around them if given the chance and the time.

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[james83]

Bail affi - noise in bathroom
Plea statement - noise in bathroom was a window sliding open
OP under oath - bathroom window slid open, hit the frame hard, sound was loud and clear.

I wonder if Nel could test OP's window-hitting-frame testimony during this break and introduce tests refuting OP's new claim?

Double tap then not double tap, Lol he fired the gun how the hell can he change his version of how he fired it?, because he's the tinker tailor man that's why.

 

[JuneBug67]

Bail affi - noise in bathroom
Plea statement - noise in bathroom was a window sliding open
OP under oath - bathroom window slid open, hit the frame hard, sound was loud and clear.

I wonder if Nel could test OP's window-hitting-frame testimony during this break and introduce tests refuting OP's new claim?

They could have done that already. They could have tested visibility in the room as well. But hey haven't. Those kinds of tests are risky for the state as they could produce exculpatory evidence that would have to be handed over. Far better to let the other side do them, or not, and attack THEM on the results or assertions. It is important to remember that a prosecution is not always a pure truth seeking exercise. It's a role somebody is playing to tell a particular story that may be neither right nor fair. It happens.

 

[Cherwell]

Bail affi - noise in bathroom
Plea statement - noise in bathroom was a window sliding open
OP under oath - bathroom window slid open, hit the frame hard, sound was loud and clear.

I wonder if Nel could test OP's window-hitting-frame testimony during this break and introduce tests refuting OP's new claim?

Wasn't there another version in which he never mentioned hearing a window noise at all, but said that he "noticed" the window was open when he entered the bathroom?

 

[Cherwell]

Reeva could have emptied her bladder before she closed the window.

The time line does not make Oscar's version impossible.

The problem with that is that she would have flushed the loo. No reason not to, she knew he was awake and up. If he could allegedly hear the bathroom window sliding open, he surely would have heard the flush. Looking at the house plan, the WC is actually very close to the bed, closer than the window.

 

[DebinGA]

Double tap then not double tap, Lol he fired the gun how the hell can he change his version of how he fired it?, because he's the tinker tailor man that's why.

IIRC OP blamed Roux for changing his version, and Roux actually apologized for his "mistake" in court. These NPD links have been very helpful in explaining OP imo.

 

[BritsKate]

Double tap then not double tap, Lol he fired the gun how the hell can he change his version of how he fired it?, because he's the tinker tailor man that's why.

If it came to Roux' attention though that a false claim was made to the court, he's required to rectify it. So even if Oscar just said 'When I pulled the trigger the 3rd time...' while they were having lunch, it would be enough for Roux to have to withdraw it, admit it as a mistake, and apologise.

Its the only reason I can think of to openly admit the defence making such a mistake mid-trial. Roux isn't new to this and it's a big misstep in my opinion.

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[Ncl1968]

Reeva could have emptied her bladder before she closed the window.

The time line does not make Oscar's version impossible.

Surely that would have knocked the intruder off the ladder...
BTW its not just the time line that makes Oscar's version impossible

 

[Lyra500]

Wasn't there another version in which he never mentioned hearing a window noise at all, but said that he "noticed" the window was open when he entered the bathroom?

Yes - his bail affidavit. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-bail-hearing-affidavit-in-full-9249107.html

I have snipped a little

During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom. I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside.....

Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps. I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on. I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house...........

I noticed that the bathroom window was open.

 

[toevlugsoord]

BIB .. I found that part of his testimony absolutely astonishing, one minute insisting he had put his hand all over the floor in order to ascertain whether Reeva was there and then in almost the very next breath he said he went straight from the bed to feeling the curtains and then when questioned on it (i.e. about feeling the floor) he said words to the effect that he didn't need to as he would've walked into Reeva's body on the floor as he walked down that side of the bed had she been there :facepalm: (<<-- not only did this prove that that bit was a big fat lie, but I was astonished by the flippant and disrespectful way he just said that he would've basically walked into/tripped over/kicked Reeva had she "been down on the floor like I asked her to" )

I wanted to watch this part and found it so I thought I'd share the link:: http://youtu.be/l_hle5shsDY

 

[DebinGA]

Wasn't there another version in which he never mentioned hearing a window noise at all, but said that he "noticed" the window was open when he entered the bathroom?

Might have been when he says he was balancing on his stumps against the wall in the dark (Not!!!) bathroom, cocked gun in hand, and noticed the window was open, causing his eyes to begin roving back and forth from window-door, window-door.

 

[DebinGA]

I wanted to watch this part and found it so I thought I'd share the link:: http://youtu.be/l_hle5shsDY

Thanks for that, toeylugsoord. So glad to hear OP say "that's not true" to Nel putting it to him that the Stipps both saw the bathroom light was ON. OP stated to m'lady strongly and clearly, "I made my way to the bathroom without a source of light." Busted!

 

[Carmelita]

And I suppose if you believe all the incredibly unlikely things in his version, you also believe it's possible that 6 things were moved before photos were take just to incriminate him before anyone actually knew his version.

I’ve not said I believe that is the way it happened I said it is wrong to dismiss it as an impossibility. Things could have been moved for many reasons I can’t imagine the stench of all that blood in a second floor suite on a hot muggy night in SA. I would not be surprised at all if a fan was moved (with no ill intent) to get some fresh air into the place. Crime scenes get contaminated, it is not a stretch to believe that some items were moved, it is also not a stretch to think that Oscar would misremember some things.

 

[Feynman]

partial quote:

While that is true, OP should have felt compelled to tell his story to police when they arrived on scene. In fact, he should have felt compelled to phone police himself. Heck, I'll go even further and say that OP should have felt compelled to get Reeva medical help IMMEDIATELY after he shot her however he didn't.

Even retired detectives say, over and over again, that the worst thing you, as a suspect, can do is talk to the police without consultation with counsel. It doesn't matter how innocent you are.

That OP should have called for medical help ASAP is of course true, but I don't see the connection.

 

[Carmelita]

The problem with that is that she would have flushed the loo. No reason not to, she knew he was awake and up. If he could allegedly hear the bathroom window sliding open, he surely would have heard the flush. Looking at the house plan, the WC is actually very close to the bed, closer than the window.

That would depend on how quickly Oscar started screaming after Reeva had emptied her bladder.

 

[BritsKate]

I’ve not said I believe that is the way it happened I said it is wrong to dismiss it as an impossibility. Things could have been moved for many reasons I can’t imagine the stench of all that blood in a second floor suite on a hot muggy night in SA. I would not be surprised at all if a fan was moved (with no ill intent) to get some fresh air into the place. Crime scenes get contaminated, it is not a stretch to believe that some items were moved, it is also not a stretch to think that Oscar would misremember some things.

In my opinion, it's an entire list of improbabilities that have to occur to make Oscar's version possible which makes it rather impossible. On their own, each item can be debated as 'not impossible' but as the list grows it becomes less likely. That's how this case will be decided as well. Even the reasonable person test will be based on the entirety of the case. The more the subjective factors, the more the defendant should have foreseen the consequences and the less likely a putative self-defence claim being successful becomes. It isn't limited to him believing his life was in danger and whether that's reasonable or not. A great deal will be weighed to make that determination.

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