Oscar Pistorius Defense

[Karmady]

Well thanks for that Karmady, but I am generally accurate. It appears I may have made a mistake. My apologies if I did. I will go back and watch it.

It was a general statement. I wouldn't take it personally. I decide for myself who I consider to be reliable.
jmo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I've checked out the video on Youtube and I don't hear Nel say the blood went on the jeans, he only says "next to the denim".

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 14 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube from 43:40

You're right. Nel is saying the blood trail goes from the carpet straight onto the duvet, if the duvet was not there (in OP's version) the trail should have continued along on the carpet (duvet on bed). Nel said the jeans were slightly on the duvet as found by LE where he says that OP dropped them and that it was unlikely LE would have placed the jeans slightly on the duvet. Duvet>jeans>OP sunk.

Roux objected to the photos being misleading. I have to agree on that one.

Sorry this is just repeated stuff but just in case new people reading might like to get a gist of things and then watch videos for themselves to verify.
Lots of things do get muddled not for any nefarious reasons, just happens.

I'm also a big fan of your site Lisa. juror13

 

[Cherwell]

To me, the chicken stir fry seemed like a too obvious attempt to match what the pathologist found. Chicken = white protein so not too far off the whitish cheese like stuff the pathologist found. They may well have had something completely different which had completely left her stomach - as expected - by the time she died.

That's possible. Would he have thought chicken would match the cheese description, though? I'd have thought he would have included cheese in his story if he was making it up. I expect it would have been possible to find out what she bought when she went food shopping.

My initial impression from the findings was that she ate something like crudités with a dip, or cottage cheese and coleslaw, perhaps. That kind of thing. She had been there all day and the previous night, so it could have been left-overs from even earlier.

 

[Jake18]

That's possible. Would he have thought chicken would match the cheese description, though? I'd have thought he would have included cheese in his story if he was making it up. I expect it would have been possible to find out what she bought when she went food shopping.

My initial impression from the findings was that she ate something like crudités with a dip, or cottage cheese and coleslaw, perhaps. That kind of thing. She had been there all day and the previous night, so it could have been left-overs from even earlier.

I always imagined the DT discussing it. "Ok, let's try to think of a meal that consists of pieces of cheese and green vegetables. Hmmm. Cheese stir fry? No, that's really gross. A salad? No OP is an athlete in training and nobody will believe it. Let's go with something white like tofu or maybe chicken."

It just struck me as the sort of meal you'd make up if you wanted it to be reasonably similar to the one found in the stomach contents without looking like you'd deliberately tailored your responses. And it's strange that while he's forgotten so much about that evening/night he does remember what they ate.

 

[Cherwell]

I always imagined the DT discussing it. "Ok, let's try to think of a meal that consists of pieces of cheese and green vegetables. Hmmm. Cheese stir fry? No, that's really gross. A salad? No OP is an athlete in training and nobody will believe it. Let's go with something white like tofu or maybe chicken."

It just struck me as the sort of meal you'd make up if you wanted it to be reasonably similar to the one found in the stomach contents without looking like you'd deliberately tailored your responses. And it's strange that while he's forgotten so much about that evening/night he does remember what they ate.

OK, but if I was making it up, I would have changed one or two other details. She needn't have eaten exactly the same as he did, or at the same time. He could have said that she had eaten earlier, and wasn't hungry, so she just cooked for him. That would account for her eating something later. So she ate a tub of Greek salad that she'd left in the fridge.

It's odd, because he had plenty of time to come up with a plausible explanation for it.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

BBM... I really can't say, but the fact that there is blood spatter on the wall above where the holster was found is troubling to me! Those two things go hand in hand.

Some food for thought... Oscar claims that after he pulled Reeva out of the bathroom, he went to retrieve his phone from the left side nightstand. He says the blood that was on his arms/hands probably created cast off on the walls.

BUT... that same phone (the 0020 number) that was used to call Stander, Netcare and Baba did not have blood stains on it. Or, did Oscar wipe the blood stains off? Remember... Carice also used this same phone while it was downstairs plugged in to the wall to charge. She did not testify that there was blood on it and I'm quite sure she would be reluctant to talk on a phone with blood all over it.

So then my next thought leads to where was that phone during the incident?Upstairs or downstairs? And from where did he make the calls, upstairs or downstairs?

We know that he "placed" his other phone (the 4949 number) under the towels in the bathroom. I absolutely believe that was an intentional plant. Why would he bring that phone in to the bathroom and then not use it? Makes no sense. The 0020 phone was the one he had been using that entire evening.

More suspicious activity!

Excellent post Lisa ! well thought and full of great sleuthing... I look forward to reading yr posts which definitely make one think other alternative theories ...
:seeya:

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

BBM... I really can't say, but the fact that there is blood spatter on the wall above where the holster was found is troubling to me! Those two things go hand in hand.

Some food for thought... Oscar claims that after he pulled Reeva out of the bathroom, he went to retrieve his phone from the left side nightstand. He says the blood that was on his arms/hands probably created cast off on the walls.

BUT... that same phone (the 0020 number) that was used to call Stander, Netcare and Baba did not have blood stains on it. Or, did Oscar wipe the blood stains off? Remember... Carice also used this same phone while it was downstairs plugged in to the wall to charge. She did not testify that there was blood on it and I'm quite sure she would be reluctant to talk on a phone with blood all over it.

So then my next thought leads to where was that phone during the incident?Upstairs or downstairs? And from where did he make the calls, upstairs or downstairs?

We know that he "placed" his other phone (the 4949 number) under the towels in the bathroom. I absolutely believe that was an intentional plant. Why would he bring that phone in to the bathroom and then not use it? Makes no sense. The 0020 phone was the one he had been using that entire evening.

More suspicious activity!

BBM

The phone 0020 which he made the calls was the one stolen and withheld for some time ..The unused phone was delibaretly put to the bathroom to deceive the police as if that was OP's phone on the scene which was used that night and handled to the police.. So it makes a lot of sense ..

But if the phone charged in the kitchen was 0020 then how did it disappear among lots of LE? and why dont we have the photos of the kitchen area .. the charged phone there ? and also wasn't Reeva's present in the kitchen ? JMO

 

[james83]

BBM... I really can't say, but the fact that there is blood spatter on the wall above where the holster was found is troubling to me! Those two things go hand in hand.

Some food for thought... Oscar claims that after he pulled Reeva out of the bathroom, he went to retrieve his phone from the left side nightstand. He says the blood that was on his arms/hands probably created cast off on the walls.

BUT... that same phone (the 0020 number) that was used to call Stander, Netcare and Baba did not have blood stains on it. Or, did Oscar wipe the blood stains off? Remember... Carice also used this same phone while it was downstairs plugged in to the wall to charge. She did not testify that there was blood on it and I'm quite sure she would be reluctant to talk on a phone with blood all over it.

So then my next thought leads to where was that phone during the incident?Upstairs or downstairs? And from where did he make the calls, upstairs or downstairs?

We know that he "placed" his other phone (the 4949 number) under the towels in the bathroom. I absolutely believe that was an intentional plant. Why would he bring that phone in to the bathroom and then not use it? Makes no sense. The 0020 phone was the one he had been using that entire evening.

More suspicious activity!

Just a thought but could it be possible that at the point Oscar made the call's he actually hadn't broken into the toilet yet?, hence no blood on the phone?, We only have his word about at which point he actually pulled Reeva out of the toilet, he has to say he did it asap, but he may well have not done it until after those phone calls for all we know.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

[/I]

BBM

The phone 0020 which he made the calls was the one stolen and withheld for some time ..The unused phone was delibaretly put to the bathroom to deceive the police as if that was OP's phone on the scene which was used that night and handled to the police.. So it makes a lot of sense ..

But if the phone charged in the kitchen was 0020 then how did it disappear among lots of LE? and why dont we have the photos of the kitchen area .. the charged phone there ? and also wasn't Reeva's present in the kitchen ? JMO

Carissa Stander and Aimee took Reeva's handbag from the scene, maybe the phone was placed in there?

 

[Greater Than]

Not necessarily. According to evidence, it was NOT normal for him to be sleeping on the left or to keep his gun UNDER the bed. Those two things, out of the norm, had to be changed in order to make the story fit of the left hand side. The fact that he had to change his standard way of doing things tells me it's not genuine. His shirt and iPads, and his prosthetics were all on the right side of the bed that night, and Reeva's slippers were on the left. Those tend to support his normal bed position of being on the right, and her on the left. Although, I don't believe they slept. They may have sat/laid in the bed at some point that night, as indicated by the cups on both sides of the nightstands, but I don't believe they were sleeping as he testified.

RSBM

BIB - This part of his testimony makes where his gun was questionable to me:

"...and then I rushed to get my firearm, uhhh, which was next to the pedestal, UNDERNEATH next to the pedestal, milady."

1:17:47 http://youtu.be/eBvvA4cL5Zc

Red flag number one is he quickly corrected himself to include the "underneath" part and emphasized it. Red flag number two, and more importantly, pedestal?? He's been claiming all along the gun was under his bed. Is a bed referred to as a pedestal in SA? I can see a nightstand being referred to as a pedestal, but a bed?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

RSBM

BIB - This part of his testimony makes where his gun was questionable to me:

"...and then I rushed to get my firearm, uhhh, which was next to the pedestal, UNDERNEATH next to the pedestal, milady."

1:17:47 http://youtu.be/eBvvA4cL5Zc

Red flag number one is he quickly corrected himself to include the "underneath" part and emphasized it. Red flag number two, and more importantly, pedestal?? He's been claiming all along the gun was under his bed. Is a bed referred to as a pedestal in SA? I can see a nightstand being referred to as a pedestal, but a bed?

Oh yes! What a slip up! :facepalm:
Poor Reeva, even in his story he plays centre stage, she is just nowhere to be seen or heard. Load of BS! jmo

 

[Jake18]

OK, but if I was making it up, I would have changed one or two other details. She needn't have eaten exactly the same as he did, or at the same time. He could have said that she had eaten earlier, and wasn't hungry, so she just cooked for him. That would account for her eating something later. So she ate a tub of Greek salad that she'd left in the fridge.

It's odd, because he had plenty of time to come up with a plausible explanation for it.

Eating together is more cosy though, isn't it? And it suits his version of a couple in love better if they're having a meal together. Much nicer than him watching *advertiser censored* then eating by himself.

Given how he kept calling the night of the shooting "that evening" I suspect the tension began quite early on and they may well have eaten separately, or Reeva not at all until her snack in the middle of night, just before the low grade bickering began to escalate. Such a shame he didn't go to his family for help dealing with his "hurdle" as presumably they're skilled in soothing and defusing him when he's angry and irritable.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

BBM... I really can't say, but the fact that there is blood spatter on the wall above where the holster was found is troubling to me! Those two things go hand in hand.

Some food for thought... Oscar claims that after he pulled Reeva out of the bathroom, he went to retrieve his phone from the left side nightstand. He says the blood that was on his arms/hands probably created cast off on the walls.

BUT... that same phone (the 0020 number) that was used to call Stander, Netcare and Baba did not have blood stains on it. Or, did Oscar wipe the blood stains off? Remember... Carice also used this same phone while it was downstairs plugged in to the wall to charge. She did not testify that there was blood on it and I'm quite sure she would be reluctant to talk on a phone with blood all over it.

So then my next thought leads to where was that phone during the incident?Upstairs or downstairs? And from where did he make the calls, upstairs or downstairs?We know that he "placed" his other phone (the 4949 number) under the towels in the bathroom. I absolutely believe that was an intentional plant. Why would he bring that phone in to the bathroom and then not use it? Makes no sense. The 0020 phone was the one he had been using that entire evening.

More suspicious activity!

BBM Then maybe he went downstairs actually to make the calls before/ after breaking the door instead of just opening the front door .. It also makes more sense that 0020 phone was on charge in the kitchen whole night . It is a bit absurd to think of taking the charge cable from the bedroom and put it on charge in the kitchen during such a mess.. ..imo this is sth interesting and we should think on it. :scared:

two phones/ 1 bloodied in the bathroom unused / the other clean charging in the kitchen/ clarice making the calls and Oscar talking / reevas bag/ blood on the leftside of the Wall behind the bed which OP says got there when he was taking the phone ?? /a trip to downstairs/ blood on the watch box / finally puffing a watch and a phone ..

just confused lol

 

[Val1]

Just a thought but could it be possible that at the point Oscar made the call's he actually hadn't broken into the toilet yet?, hence no blood on the phone?, We only have his word about at which point he actually pulled Reeva out of the toilet, he has to say he did it asap, but he may well have not done it until after those phone calls for all we know.

Was there blood found on any of the cell phones?

 

[eimajjjj]

This may be a newbie question, but doesn't Van Rensburg concede that someone moved the fan? If so, what photo is he referring to and isn't that a pain for the prosecution?

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Was there blood found on any of the cell phones?

This phone should have blood on it, even just a spot or two, unless it was wiped and placed there by OP? And if so, why? :banghead: jmo

 

[PrimeSuspect]

This may be a newbie question, but doesn't Van Rensburg concede that someone moved the fan? If so, what photo is he referring to and isn't that a pain for the prosecution?

Correct. Is Van Rensburg reliable? Meh.

Oscar Pistorius trial Day 10: When police tainted vital evidence

Van Rensburg conceded police tainted the crime scene in various ways during their investigations.
He said police also moved a fan and the sheets that covered Pistorius's bed

http://sports.ndtv.com/othersports/athletics/221977-oscar-pistorius-trial-day-10-when-police-tainted-vital-evidence

Officers stole a watch worth as much as $10,000 (7,000 euros) from the Paralympian's collection during their forensic investigation, Van Rensburg testified.

It was never proven officers stole the watch, we heard Carissa Stander say she and Aimee took Reeva's handbag, it could have been one of them that removed the watch, they were not searched. But of course it benefits the DT if the LE appear not only incompetent but thieves as well. :facepalm: jmo

Van Rensburg did not know this for fact, so it should be in his opinion, as is mine that Clarissa or Aimee took the watch. We will never know, unfortunately. :banghead:

 

[Ncl1968]

This phone should have blood on it, even just a spot or two, unless it was wiped and placed there by OP? And if so, why? :banghead: jmo

Same for the toilet walls.. No splatter.. Jmo

 

[lisasalinger]

This may be a newbie question, but doesn't Van Rensburg concede that someone moved the fan? If so, what photo is he referring to and isn't that a pain for the prosecution?

No, it's really not a pain for the prosecution. If you go back and listen to the entire Van Rensburg testimony from March 13 and March 14, you will see him being honest with Nel about what was not done properly at the scene, as well as what was done correctly. In my opinion, he seemed very forthright about the mistakes that occurred. I do think that there were one or two rotten apples from the police force on the scene that day, but Van Rensburg was not one of them and fortunately he was first on the scene.

Roux insinuated that the scene was "disturbed" and "interfered with" and also used some crafty little tricks to make Van Rensburg seem not as observant as he should be. But after watching all of it, I really came to the conclusion that Van Rensburg was being sincere.

At some point, after all the initial photos are taken (and eventually put in to Album 1 for the court), the police have to investigate. In order to investigate, they have to move items. This is nothing new. It happens at every single crime scene, although Roux would like you to believe otherwise. So yes, at some point the fan was moved but only after it was initially photographed.

As they investigated they took additional photos to document how items were moved. Why would they do that if they were trying to hide something?

The problem is that other officers on the scene were taking photos as well (some were infamously leaked to the media) and those photos were also given to the Defense.

But the Defense was busted by Nel on reexamination for trying to insinuate that the scene was not pristine, when they showed a photo of the curtains drawn and the fan moved. It turned out that the photo was not from the official photographer's camera (which is the evidence that was presented to the court) and did not depict the original scene. Roux was just trying to trick the court and make Van Rensburg look bad.

I just updated my blog for Days 9 & 10 if you want to check it out. I added a few new photos and notes that I missed the first time around.

Something popped out at me the second time around watching Van Rensburg's testimony. While he was observing the scene upstairs, he mentioned that a few of the doors were locked but had their keys in the outside lock/keyhole. That is exactly how the key to the toilet room door was found, on the outside in the keyhole. Is that a clue that the key was really there all along?

 

[lisasalinger]

Was there blood found on any of the cell phones?

It doesn't appear so but it's really hard to tell as we are just seeing pictures off of a monitor in court. There are a lot of details that we can't see very well. I don't recall anybody testifying about blood on phones.

And of course... we don't have any photographs of the phone in the kitchen (the 0020 number)... the one used to make the calls that night... because it was stolen from the crime scene.

I can't believe I never thought about it before, but it dawned on me a few days ago that the phone in the kitchen likely did not have blood on it. I'm making that assumption simply because Carice and Oscar were using it. I highly doubt Carice would be holding a phone with blood on it.

We know Oscar had blood on his hands when he retrieved Reeva's body from the toilet room, so how in the world could there be no blood on that phone? There can only be two ways:

1. He washed his hands before he used the phone.
2. He made the calls before he pulled Reeva out of the bathroom