Oscar Pistorius Defense

[lisasalinger]

RE Estelle Van Der Merwe hearing a woman's voice in what she believe's sounded like an argumentative tone, i'm leaning towards the theory that Reeva locked herself in the bedroom and they were arguing with each other through the door, hence Van Der Merwe only hearing Reeva, then at some point Oscar forced his way through hence the damage to the door and the event's that followed.
JMO.

Actually... here is my thought on why and how Mrs. van der Mewre heard what she did:

1) Her bedroom faces the front of OP's house. She heard arguing at 1:56am. The other people did not. Those other people who testified had bedrooms at the back of OP's house (Stipp, Nhlengethwa), and the far right side of his house (Motshuane) This tells me that Reeva and OP started fighting somewhere in the front area of the house, likely kitchen area, not upstairs in the bedroom!

2) Mrs. van der Mewre did not hear the screaming closer to 3am (because that was occurring at the back of the house) but she heard the gunshots because those are LOUD. Then she heard silence. Every witness that heard the gunshots also heard silence after.

3) The next thing Mrs. van der Mewre heard was loud crying, identified as Oscar by her husband. She, and her husband, heard OP as he was now in the front of his house coming down the stairs. Some time after that, all of the cars starting arriving (Standers, security, etc)

 

[jay-jay]

2) There still could be blood on the duvet if OP said that after he returned to the bedroom and looked for Reeva, he pulled the duvet onto the floor to find her...then, when he did finally see her and got covered in blood, the blood would splatter on the duvet when he returned...then all he has to explain is how he walked over the duvet which is easier than pretending it was moved there

~snipped~

Yes, but then there would still be a problem with that in that, if he had said all that about the duvet, then it would mean that the fans couldn't have been in the position where he said they were .. so he absolutely has to have that duvet placed on the bed still, in his version.

 

[lisasalinger]

~snipped~

One thing that mystifies me about the food problem/Reeva's stomach contents is that I don't understand why, if OP and Reeva were arguing, she would be having a snack at some point from the kitchen .. I know from experience that anything like that is the furthest thing from your mind if you are having one of those 'all nighter' type arguments. I can only think she must've gone down there during a lull in a disagreement that started earlier that evening and before it all kicked off again big time in the early hours of Feb 14th, but I don't think she would've been snacking at the time Van der Mewre claimed to have heard a woman voice arguing, I think she would've had that snack before that argument took place (about half an hour to an hour before) .. possibly might even be something which caused an argument (or caused it to flare up again) if her getting up and going downstairs to the kitchen in the middle of the night was something which annoyed OP.

ETA: .. also I think that vegetables and cheese is an odd type of midnight snack to have, but then that's just me, I would probably have something much more unhealthy like a bag of crisps!

BBM... I agree with you. She would not be eating at 1:56am when the argument was heard... she ate some time before that, but was still awake at 1:56am

I used to have a roommate who ate veggies at night when she got up, mainly carrots. These people do exist. I'm with you though... I would eat the chips

 

[jay-jay]

BBM... I agree with you. She would not be eating at 1:56am when the argument was heard... she ate some time before that, but was still awake at 1:56am

I used to have a roommate who ate veggies at night when she got up, mainly carrots. These people do exist. I'm with you though... I would eat the chips

:thumb:

 

[lisasalinger]

OK..I think..

Snipped by me.

1) OK, makes sense, thanks! (although if the blood splatter/holster WAS found on the left, doesn't that imply he WAS sleeping on the left? Sorry if I'm confused here..

Not necessarily. According to evidence, it was NOT normal for him to be sleeping on the left or to keep his gun UNDER the bed. Those two things, out of the norm, had to be changed in order to make the story fit of the left hand side. The fact that he had to change his standard way of doing things tells me it's not genuine. His shirt and iPads, and his prosthetics were all on the right side of the bed that night, and Reeva's slippers were on the left. Those tend to support his normal bed position of being on the right, and her on the left. Although, I don't believe they slept. They may have sat/laid in the bed at some point that night, as indicated by the cups on both sides of the nightstands, but I don't believe they were sleeping as he testified.

2) There still could be blood on the duvet if OP said that after he returned to the bedroom and looked for Reeva, he pulled the duvet onto the floor to find her...then, when he did finally see her and got covered in blood, the blood would splatter on the duvet when he returned...then all he has to explain is how he walked over the duvet which is easier than pretending it was moved there

Respectfully, I think you are totally reaching here and not really focusing on the evidence given. OP's story is that he was racing around on stumps, in the pitch dark BEFORE he got Reeva out of the bathroom. There is no blood on him.

Next, he opens the curtains and balcony door, yells for help, then puts on his prosthetics. He still does not have blood on him.

THEN he breaks down the door and pulls Reeva out. This is when he gets blood on his arms/hands/body.

The ONLY time he reenters the bedroom after that, according to him, is to retrieve his phone on the LEFT SIDE of the bed. Look at where that is, per the pic below, and you will see that he would not be near the jeans or duvet. The only time that blood droplets could transfer to that area, and also get on the watch case, is when he is carrying Reeva's body with bloody hair swinging around, through the bedroom and out the door

3) I missed that OP said door was locked and Reeva couldn't use the alarm although he does at one point say there was a 'possibility' she went down to eat but doesn't stick with it

I stand by what I said above on this.

4) my point is that he doesn't have to pretend he didn't see Reeva until he walks past the foot of the bed and she could get out once he's past her, no need for holding eyes when he wakes up...

He shouldn't have to be pretending anything! If it were true, I have no doubt he would have just said, I didn't look at her. Period. The fact that he is squirming and throwing in bizarre details about rubbing his face, not rubbing his face, pushing covers aside that weren't on top of him, etc is because he is making it up. Those are clear indicators of an disingenuous story.

AND FOR A NEW BONUS NO.5! - why is it so hard to find out who the first person who went to that room was and whether they saw the blanket on the floor etc

It's not hard to find out. The Defense just wants you to believe that it is! Do you really believe that within minutes of arriving on scene, the police moved the duvet to the floor, placed the jeans on top of the duvet, spattered blood on top of them to make it look real, moved the fans, unplugged the smaller fan, opened the curtains wide.

Shouldn't you really be asking why OP broke down the door with a cricket bat, moved the body of the woman he just shot 4 times, told security that everything was fine, and then carried her body downstairs and insisted that his friends take her (out of his house) to the hospital?

 

[jay-jay]

Not necessarily. According to evidence, it was NOT normal for him to be sleeping on the left or to keep his gun UNDER the bed. Those two things, out of the norm, had to be changed in order to make the story fit of the left hand side. The fact that he had to change his standard way of doing things tells me it's not genuine. His shirt and iPads, and his prosthetics were all on the right side of the bed that night, and Reeva's slippers were on the left. Those tend to support his normal bed position of being on the right, and her on the left. Although, I don't believe they slept. They may have sat/laid in the bed at some point that night, as indicated by the cups on both sides of the nightstands, but I don't believe they were sleeping as he testified.

~snipped~

.. and add to that, Reeva had stayed over the previous night too, so it's even more unlikely that OP hadn't moved all his things round to the LH side of the bed, and Reeva her flip flops to the RH side.

 

[lisasalinger]

~snipped~

Yes, but then there would still be a problem with that in that, if he had said all that about the duvet, then it would mean that the fans couldn't have been in the position where he said they were .. so he absolutely has to have that duvet placed on the bed still, in his version.

Excellent point, jay-jay. Good catch! I totally missed that in my post above.

He stated that he put the fans in the exact position where the duvet is seen on the photo. That's not possible.

 

[eimajjjj]

Snipped by me.

1) OK, makes sense, thanks! (although if the blood splatter/holster WAS found on the left, doesn't that imply he WAS sleeping on the left? Sorry if I'm confused here..

Not necessarily. According to evidence, it was NOT normal for him to be sleeping on the left or to keep his gun UNDER the bed. Those two things, out of the norm, had to be changed in order to make the story fit of the left hand side. The fact that he had to change his standard way of doing things tells me it's not genuine. His shirt and iPads, and his prosthetics were all on the right side of the bed that night, and Reeva's slippers were on the left. Those tend to support his normal bed position of being on the right, and her on the left. Although, I don't believe they slept. They may have sat/laid in the bed at some point that night, as indicated by the cups on both sides of the nightstands, but I don't believe they were sleeping as he testified.

2) There still could be blood on the duvet if OP said that after he returned to the bedroom and looked for Reeva, he pulled the duvet onto the floor to find her...then, when he did finally see her and got covered in blood, the blood would splatter on the duvet when he returned...then all he has to explain is how he walked over the duvet which is easier than pretending it was moved there

Respectfully, I think you are totally reaching here and not really focusing on the evidence given. OP's story is that he was racing around on stumps, in the pitch dark BEFORE he got Reeva out of the bathroom. There is no blood on him.

Next, he opens the curtains and balcony door, yells for help, then puts on his prosthetics. He still does not have blood on him.

THEN he breaks down the door and pulls Reeva out. This is when he gets blood on his arms/hands/body.

The ONLY time he reenters the bedroom after that, according to him, is to retrieve his phone on the LEFT SIDE of the bed. Look at where that is, per the pic below, and you will see that he would not be near the jeans or duvet. The only time that blood droplets could transfer to that area, and also get on the watch case, is when he is carrying Reeva's body with bloody hair swinging around, through the bedroom and out the door

3) I missed that OP said door was locked and Reeva couldn't use the alarm although he does at one point say there was a 'possibility' she went down to eat but doesn't stick with it

I stand by what I said above on this.

4) my point is that he doesn't have to pretend he didn't see Reeva until he walks past the foot of the bed and she could get out once he's past her, no need for holding eyes when he wakes up...

He shouldn't have to be pretending anything! If it were true, I have no doubt he would have just said, I didn't look at her. Period. The fact that he is squirming and throwing in bizarre details about rubbing his face, not rubbing his face, pushing covers aside that weren't on top of him, etc is because he is making it up. Those are clear indicators of an disingenuous story.

AND FOR A NEW BONUS NO.5! - why is it so hard to find out who the first person who went to that room was and whether they saw the blanket on the floor etc

It's not hard to find out. The Defense just wants you to believe that it is! Do you really believe that within minutes of arriving on scene, the police moved the duvet to the floor, placed the jeans on top of the duvet, spattered blood on top of them to make it look real, moved the fans, unplugged the smaller fan, opened the curtains wide.

Shouldn't you really be asking why OP broke down the door with a cricket bat, moved the body of the woman he just shot 4 times, told security that everything was fine, and then carried her body downstairs and insisted that his friends take her (out of his house) to the hospital?

First off, please know I think this is the most implausible and ridiculous story ever concocted and OP is guilty of murder. I just, as I have with his other cover-ups, want to work out his logic behind them.

1) if he wasn't on the left then why the blood and holster there? Obvious he slept on right though.
2) yes, agreed, also fans needed to be there.
3) ok
4) agreed he shouldn't be making up anything but I'm not sure why he added that rubbing of eyes
And
5) but surely, all the prosecution need to do is get the first person that entered the room as a witness to say they saw the duvet on the floor and he's finished

 

[jay-jay]

~snipped (again!) ~

The position of those pillows on the RH side of the bed also tells me that someone wasn't asleep that night, they were sitting up in bed either looking at their iPad or phone or sommat, with the pillow propped up behind them like that .. the way they are positioned in that photo is not the normal position of pillows for someone sleeping.

 

[cottonweaver]

~snipped~

ETA: .. also I think that vegetables and cheese is an odd type of midnight snack to have, but then that's just me, I would probably have something much more unhealthy like a bag of crisps!

His body is his temple. ( "I'm very strict about ma diet" blah blah) He probably would't even have anything unhealthy in the house.

But- cheese-like they said- pathologist wasn't sure. Chicken stir-fry for dinner. I had often thought maybe she didn't actually eat the stir fry as it all kicked off shortly after having cooked it (whilst he was upstairs with his IPad...)

Cheese salad sandwich at midnight because you were famished having not eaten earlier due to rowing and the row re-starts.

As for the ipads- looks like he could have had a habit of deleting web history regularly - nothing there prior to that evening of 13th. He was seriously into social media plus he was a known player and would've been checking other women's Facebook pages etc. Any other ideas beyond *advertiser censored*?
He was seemingly embarassed about the *advertiser censored* URLs being seen by journalists:

.."Barry Roux for the defence asked for a short adjournment, and during the break the web history was visible to journalists, who saw that at least one *advertiser censored* site had been accessed on the the Ipad. Nel did not refer to them in his examination of the witness. During the adjournment, Pistorius's legal team gathered around the seemingly upset-looking athlete for some time before court resumed"
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-ipad-history-shown-in-court-1.1663803#.U4ud0c25aeY

Finally - I'd like to know what people think regarding how OP really got the blood on the wall over the bed- beyond his own account.

 

[jay-jay]

5) but surely, all the prosecution need to do is get the first person that entered the room as a witness to say they saw the duvet on the floor and he's finished

They (the PT) have actually done that, the first person on the scene taking photos of the bedroom was Lt Van Rensburg, and he took close up photos of the blood trail going in a line across the carpet which continued across the duvet on the floor. They can't just wrap up the trial just like that though, on the basis of that evidence, because the trial has to take it's full course in order to allow OP a fair hearing.

 

[lisasalinger]

His body is his temple. ( "I'm very strict about ma diet" blah blah) He probably would't even have anything unhealthy in the house.

But- cheese-like they said- pathologist wasn't sure. Chicken stir-fry for dinner. I had often thought maybe she didn't actually eat the stir fry as it all kicked off shortly after having cooked it (whilst he was upstairs with his IPad...)

Cheese salad sandwich at midnight because you were famished having not eaten earlier due to rowing and the row re-starts.

As for the ipads- looks like he could have had a habit of deleting web history regularly - nothing there prior to that evening of 13th. He was seriously into social media plus he was a known player and would've been checking other women's Facebook pages etc. Any other ideas beyond *advertiser censored*?
He was seemingly embarassed about the *advertiser censored* URLs being seen by journalists:

.."Barry Roux for the defence asked for a short adjournment, and during the break the web history was visible to journalists, who saw that at least one *advertiser censored* site had been accessed on the the Ipad. Nel did not refer to them in his examination of the witness. During the adjournment, Pistorius's legal team gathered around the seemingly upset-looking athlete for some time before court resumed"
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-ipad-history-shown-in-court-1.1663803#.U4ud0c25aeY

Finally - I'd like to know what people think regarding how OP really got the blood on the wall over the bed- beyond his own account.

BBM... I really can't say, but the fact that there is blood spatter on the wall above where the holster was found is troubling to me! Those two things go hand in hand.

Some food for thought... Oscar claims that after he pulled Reeva out of the bathroom, he went to retrieve his phone from the left side nightstand. He says the blood that was on his arms/hands probably created cast off on the walls.

BUT... that same phone (the 0020 number) that was used to call Stander, Netcare and Baba did not have blood stains on it. Or, did Oscar wipe the blood stains off? Remember... Carice also used this same phone while it was downstairs plugged in to the wall to charge. She did not testify that there was blood on it and I'm quite sure she would be reluctant to talk on a phone with blood all over it.

So then my next thought leads to where was that phone during the incident?Upstairs or downstairs? And from where did he make the calls, upstairs or downstairs?

We know that he "placed" his other phone (the 4949 number) under the towels in the bathroom. I absolutely believe that was an intentional plant. Why would he bring that phone in to the bathroom and then not use it? Makes no sense. The 0020 phone was the one he had been using that entire evening.

More suspicious activity!

 

[IfIMay]

Sure, OP could have changed any one bit of his story to conform to evidence, but then something else falls out as impossible. The only thing that he can say that can implausibly excuse all of his version inconsistencies is "bad police anticipated my version and moved everything".

Reeva was a model, so the veggies make sense in that she was about to get a lot of press for that show that was about to air. Sadly, she didn't get press for the show but for her murder. :sad:

 

[PrimeSuspect]

BBM... I agree with you. She would not be eating at 1:56am when the argument was heard... she ate some time before that, but was still awake at 1:56am

I used to have a roommate who ate veggies at night when she got up, mainly carrots. These people do exist. I'm with you though... I would eat the chips

My son and his gf (in their early twenties) are living back at home atm, and they eat veggies and pasta in the middle of the night. :twocents:


Respectfully snipped

Originally Posted by lisasalinger

But I think you also missed the testimony about the locked bedroom door and the alarm, and the significance of it. OP tried to make it seem like he had no idea if Reeva knew how to use the alarm remote, which is a farce, because she had previously stayed at his house without him being there. She knew how to use the alarm and he knows that.

The alarm remote seems to have interested Judge Masipa's assessor who asked Mr Stander if his alarm makes a noise. Interesting.

 

[Cherwell]

But- cheese-like they said- pathologist wasn't sure. Chicken stir-fry for dinner. I had often thought maybe she didn't actually eat the stir fry as it all kicked off shortly after having cooked it (whilst he was upstairs with his IPad...)

Cheese salad sandwich at midnight because you were famished having not eaten earlier due to rowing and the row re-starts.

Not a sandwich, but possibly she ate some of the left-over stir fry. Left-over because she didn't eat much of it earlier.

 

[Jake18]

Not a sandwich, but possibly she ate some of the left-over stir fry. Left-over because she didn't eat much of it earlier.

To me, the chicken stir fry seemed like a too obvious attempt to match what the pathologist found. Chicken = white protein so not too far off the whitish cheese like stuff the pathologist found. They may well have had something completely different which had completely left her stomach - as expected - by the time she died.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Hey Mr. Fossil, thanks :seeya:

1) Actually, Reeva sleeping on the right makes it less plausible that he missed her getting up. That's why I don't agree with that theory that I have seen by some. It has everything to do with that gun holster and the blood spatter. OP never used to keep his gun under the bed and he didn't usually sleep on the left, according to evidence, but he did that night. He had to say that because of holster and blood spatter. I stand by that one as the most plausible reason to place himself there.

2) Go here to check out the portion of testimony about the blood spatter across the items on the floor - you can find it about 1/4 of the way down the page. http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/04/11/oscar-trial-day-21-oscar/

3) I agree that OP's account of Reeva and the alarm are inconsistent. There is no reason for him to say anything other than, "yes, she knows how to use it" unless he is trying to cover something up. Red flag there.

4) Yes, he did carefully explain how the curtain was wrapped around the fan (another ridiculous story). BUT, think about his sequence... He moved the fans from the doorway to in front of the bed. He would have done that BEFORE the door was closed, locked and curtains fully drawn. There would have been some portion of the curtains cracked, and the balcony light was on. Plus, how could he position the fans in front of the bed with it being pitch dark. He wouldn't be able to see what he was doing, and would be tripping all over those wires on his stumps. Really try to picture a man on his stumps, in the pitch dark, positioning fans in front of the bed with his back to the bed the whole time, wires and extension cords in the way. Who does that?? Nobody!!

I've checked out the video on Youtube and I don't hear Nel say the blood went on the jeans, he only says "next to the denim".

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 14 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube from 43:40

 

[Karmady]

I've checked out the video on Youtube and I don't hear Nel say the blood went on the jeans, he only says "next to the denim".

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 14 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube from 43:40

Yes. One important rule I have about engaging here is never, ever, ever, take a post about what the testimony has been as accurate unless you've listened to it yourself and/or the poster has longstanding reputation for accuracy. I would say 85 percent of the time the testimony is not as stated. I was surprised at first. Now, not so much. jmo

 

[lisasalinger]

Yes. One important rule I have about engaging here is never, ever, ever, take a post about what the testimony has been as accurate unless you've listened to it yourself and/or the poster has longstanding reputation for accuracy. I would say 85 percent of the time the testimony is not as stated. I was surprised at first. Now, not so much. jmo

Well thanks for that Karmady, but I am generally accurate or at least try very hard to be. It appears I may have made a mistake. My apologies if I did. I will go back and watch it.

 

[lisasalinger]

I've checked out the video on Youtube and I don't hear Nel say the blood went on the jeans, he only says "next to the denim".

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 14 April 2014, Session 1 - YouTube from 43:40

You're correct, Fossil... my apologies for any confusion. I think I was thrown off by the image with the circle (below).