Out of place items in Ramsey home

[Theonly1]

JB's jumper (?) but she couldn't remember the last time it was worn

Thank you! That is exactly what it was!

 

[Amateur Novelist]

Yeah, and I've wondered if that's when some of the "staging within staging" took place...after he'd sat there and had time to ponder what had been done before and realized that things weren't going to go as planned...so on to Plan B.

I thought that I read that one of the detectives (Arndt) mentioned to JR that they were planning to bring in a cadaver dog which seemed to match up with the time that JR became increasingly agitated. Not long after, he was instructed to check the house again and soon thereafter "found" the body. I apologize if I this is not correct or I "misremembered" but was he forced into intentionally contaminating the wine cellar in fear of the body / location being found by a cadaver dog?

 

[CherCher]

I thought that I read that one of the detectives (Arndt) mentioned to JR that they were planning to bring in a cadaver dog which seemed to match up with the time that JR became increasingly agitated. Not long after, he was instructed to check the house again and soon thereafter "found" the body. I apologize if I this is not correct or I "misremembered" but was he forced into intentionally contaminating the wine cellar in fear of the body / location being found by a cadaver dog?

I do recall reading something about bringing in "sniffer dogs" while the case was still considered a kidnapping, but not cadaver dogs. Wish I could remember where I read it.

 

[Captain_Khan]

I do recall reading something about bringing in "sniffer dogs" while the case was still considered a kidnapping, but not cadaver dogs. Wish I could remember where I read it.

To someone without an interest in or knowledge of crime investigation, is there much of a difference? If John wasn't aware there was a difference, he still could have reacted the same way...

 

[CherCher]

To someone without an interest in or knowledge of crime investigation, is there much of a difference? If John wasn't aware there was a difference, he still could have reacted the same way...

Maybe not. I wasn't implying that John Ramsey or anyone else in the house that day knew the difference. I was commenting on a comment that may or may not be the truth. It all might be a rumor. As an RDI I think we should deal with truthful evidence, not rumor. Not to say that we can't form a theory based on the evidence, but it should be the truth that we are basing a theory upon.

 

[Mama2JML]

I do recall reading something about bringing in "sniffer dogs" while the case was still considered a kidnapping, but not cadaver dogs. Wish I could remember where I read it.

Maybe in PMPT? (p. 16-17):

"Just before noon, at Boulder police headquarters, Larry Mason suggested to John Eller that they get tracking dogs. If this was an abduction, the kidnapper might still be close by - in a canyon or in the Chautauqua Park area. Perhaps the Ramsey girl had been molested but was still alive.

Mason wanted to use Yogi, a tracking dog from the city of Aurora. Eller wanted to use Boulder's German shepherds. But the Boulder dogs worked from ground scent, Mason protested, and they were easily distracted. The dog Mason wanted was a bloodhound that in 1993 had backtracked nine miles to the base of Deer Creek Canyon and helped find the body of a kidnapped five-year-old girl. That child had been driven part of the way, and it was the kind of trail that might stymie a ground-tracking dog. The likelihdod was that JonBenet Ramsey had been abducted in some kind of vehicle, and Yogi, Mason reminded Eller, was an air scent dog and could handle the situation better.

'Did you learn that at the Academy?' Eller snapped. He was always baiting Mason for having attended the FBI academy in Quantico, Virginia." (Schiller, 1999)​

 

[CherCher]

Maybe in PMPT? (p. 16-17):

"Just before noon, at Boulder police headquarters, Larry Mason suggested to John Eller that they get tracking dogs. If this was an abduction, the kidnapper might still be close by - in a canyon or in the Chautauqua Park area. Perhaps the Ramsey girl had been molested but was still alive.

Mason wanted to use Yogi, a tracking dog from the city of Aurora. Eller wanted to use Boulder's German shepherds. But the Boulder dogs worked from ground scent, Mason protested, and they were easily distracted. The dog Mason wanted was a bloodhound that in 1993 had backtracked nine miles to the base of Deer Creek Canyon and helped find the body of a kidnapped five-year-old girl. That child had been driven part of the way, and it was the kind of trail that might stymie a ground-tracking dog. The likelihdod was that JonBenet Ramsey had been abducted in some kind of vehicle, and Yogi, Mason reminded Eller, was an air scent dog and could handle the situation better.

'Did you learn that at the Academy?' Eller snapped. He was always baiting Mason for having attended the FBI academy in Quantico, Virginia." (Schiller, 1999)​

That was it Mama. It's been about 12 years since I've read that book, but I remember reading that passage. So tracker/sniffer dogs were probably considered at some point, which makes sense.

It's strange that they didn't deploy the tracking dogs right away. When I was a little girl a young (14 year old) neighbor boy went missing. His parents were frantic. TWO hours after the police were notified, they had tracking dogs following his scent. The dogs followed him to a different neighbor's house. Everyone in that house swore up and down that they hadn't seen the boy. The parents gave police permission to search the home and the boy was found in their attic. Turned out that the teenage daughter and the missing boy had planned to run away together.

 

[gramcracker]

the Boulder dog had been on standby and available since 7am. yet another example of politics within the BPD hierarchy: rather than making a decision about doing something, they did nothing. willing to bet the boots on the ground woulda had that local dog in action by 7:05, if it was their call

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Maybe in PMPT? (p. 16-17):

"Just before noon, at Boulder police headquarters, Larry Mason suggested to John Eller that they get tracking dogs. If this was an abduction, the kidnapper might still be close by - in a canyon or in the Chautauqua Park area. Perhaps the Ramsey girl had been molested but was still alive.

Mason wanted to use Yogi, a tracking dog from the city of Aurora. Eller wanted to use Boulder's German shepherds. But the Boulder dogs worked from ground scent, Mason protested, and they were easily distracted. The dog Mason wanted was a bloodhound that in 1993 had backtracked nine miles to the base of Deer Creek Canyon and helped find the body of a kidnapped five-year-old girl. That child had been driven part of the way, and it was the kind of trail that might stymie a ground-tracking dog. The likelihdod was that JonBenet Ramsey had been abducted in some kind of vehicle, and Yogi, Mason reminded Eller, was an air scent dog and could handle the situation better.

'Did you learn that at the Academy?' Eller snapped. He was always baiting Mason for having attended the FBI academy in Quantico, Virginia." (Schiller, 1999)​

It is really a shame they did not pull out all the stops with this case. I think it would have been solved immediately. Had they EVEN searched the property properly, They would have found her ASAP and then would have had complete undisturbed evidence. Had they used the dogs, they would have gotten the scent of JBR and found her and then possible the perp too.

 

[UKGuy]

So do you lean toward JDI? Just curious. I am not married to a theory, other than RDI and 150% convinced of that, but I am not at all certain which RDI.
However I still lean strongly to PDI, the head blow in a fit of rage, and the rest to cover the injury and try to make it look like an intruder. I also lean strongly to John not being part of the cover up that night. I think the light slowly dawned the next morning starting with his reading of the RN and recognizing not only Patsy's handwriting, but her overall style.

Part of my reasoning on this is that the RN was just to patently absurd I don't see John signing off on that. I think he was smarter and obviously did not have her flair for the overly dramatic. I also think their behavior to one another that morning was particularly telling. I think she wanted the audience in part because she did not want to be confonted by John and knew he couldn't, or wouldn't, do it with an audience. And of course she knew full well there would be no consequence to ignoring the warning about talking to anyone since she had made all that up in warped, overly dramatic little mind.

However, I am always interested in alternative RDI theories. I have seen some very well researched and persuasive arguments on this site. I fully recognize that my "favored" theory could be off.

The only thing I have no doubt about is that one, two or all three of the people that survived in that house that night are responsible for her death and the staging.

chlban,

Part of my reasoning on this is that the RN was just to patently absurd I don't see John signing off on that.

ITA. Even if JR initially asked PR to author a RN, surely he would suggest some amendments?

There are lots of examples where PR is patently involved yet she denies any part, e.g. the pineapple snack, size-12's, JonBenet bathing on 12/25/1996.

If you lean towards conspiracy theories it could be that JR has written himself out of the script at PR's expense?

If you consider PDI or JDI to be the theory, then you must explain away why BR was awake prior to the 911 call asking what had been found?

Since neither JR or PR wish any witness to ongoing events, just what was BR doing in the basement so early in the morning?

I'm inclined towards BDI with PR staging and JR cleaning up later on adding some misinformation along with a broken window and suitcase that JR assumed responsibility for, all that in a homicide case, why so?

The big unknown is: who was abusing JonBenet prior to the night of 12/25/1996?

It may not have been the same person as that of 12/25/1996, thus engendering a staged crime-scene which required JonBenet to be redressed in clean size-12 underwear?


.

 

[chlban]

chlban,

ITA. Even if JR initially asked PR to author a RN, surely he would suggest some amendments?

There are lots of examples where PR is patently involved yet she denies any part, e.g. the pineapple snack, size-12's, JonBenet bathing on 12/25/1996.

If you lean towards conspiracy theories it could be that JR has written himself out of the script at PR's expense?

If you consider PDI or JDI to be the theory, then you must explain away why BR was awake prior to the 911 call asking what had been found?

Since neither JR or PR wish any witness to ongoing events, just what was BR doing in the basement so early in the morning?

I'm inclined towards BDI with PR staging and JR cleaning up later on adding some misinformation along with a broken window and suitcase that JR assumed responsibility for, all that in a homicide case, why so?

The big unknown is: who was abusing JonBenet prior to the night of 12/25/1996?

It may not have been the same person as that of 12/25/1996, thus engendering a staged crime-scene which required JonBenet to be redressed in clean size-12 underwear?

sorry double post

 

[chlban]

chlban,

ITA. Even if JR initially asked PR to author a RN, surely he would suggest some amendments?

There are lots of examples where PR is patently involved yet she denies any part, e.g. the pineapple snack, size-12's, JonBenet bathing on 12/25/1996.

If you lean towards conspiracy theories it could be that JR has written himself out of the script at PR's expense?

If you consider PDI or JDI to be the theory, then you must explain away why BR was awake prior to the 911 call asking what had been found?

Since neither JR or PR wish any witness to ongoing events, just what was BR doing in the basement so early in the morning?

I'm inclined towards BDI with PR staging and JR cleaning up later on adding some misinformation along with a broken window and suitcase that JR assumed responsibility for, all that in a homicide case, why so?

The big unknown is: who was abusing JonBenet prior to the night of 12/25/1996?

It may not have been the same person as that of 12/25/1996, thus engendering a staged crime-scene which required JonBenet to be redressed in clean size-12 underwear?


.

I think Oswald acted alone. So, no, not big on conspiracy theories. BDI is a strong possibility IMO. However when I say BDI, I mean the head injury. I do not believe that a nine year old boy did the staging. If he inflicted the initial injury I suspect he was sent to his room and Mom took over. So, technically, it would still be PDI.

That scenario also explains why John was so willing to jump on the "cover up" train. To protect his son.

 

[pukasonqo2]

i think that, if BR is responsible, it was an accident, a spur of the moment reaction.

i am still on the fence re: which of the Rs did kill JB and, in all honesty, i really don't know who was responsible for the sexual abuse




lupus est homini *advertiser censored*, non *advertiser censored*, non quom qualis sit novit

 

[DeeDee249]

Right. Great, thanks. But something was soaking in a sink per PRs depo. What did she say she washed out? Think hard.

There are TWO items that always get confused. There was a red cotton turtleneck that Patsy had argued with JB about wearing to the White's that day. JB ended up wearing her white sweatshirt with silver star. That red turtleneck was said to have been found rolled up in a ball either ON the sink or IN the sink in JB's bathroom. There is confusion as to whether it was wet or dry.

Then there was a RED JUMPSUIT made of a stretchy fabric like a leotard that JB had worn to perform at a local Mall in a Christmas performance not long before she was killed. When shown a photo and discussing it with LE, Patsy was asked about it- I believe it was in a photo lying on an ironing board and Patsy mentioned that it had become soiled and made a comment about remembering to wash it when she got back. There is a photo out there of JB wearing that red jumpsuit.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Oswald acted alone. So, no, not big on conspiracy theories. BDI is a strong possibility IMO. However when I say BDI, I mean the head injury. I do not believe that a nine year old boy did the staging. If he inflicted the initial injury I suspect he was sent to his room and Mom took over. So, technically, it would still be PDI.

That scenario also explains why John was so willing to jump on the "cover up" train. To protect his son.

chlban,

I think Oswald acted alone.

He may have, yet this does not discount parallel involvement from other actors, whose behaviour Oswald was intended to mask?


ITA. It could still be PDI in the sense you describe, Mom took over, then Dad tweeked the crime-scene?

You must allow for some staging on BR's behalf, in the context of a homicide, children know when they have killed?

.

 

[Theonly1]

On dogs: there are ones who are ground trained with scent and others that are air-trained. There are dogs who search for, say live people, via a scent object. They can be either ground or air type. Cadaver dogs are usually scent trained on cadaver scent. The dogs we worked with usually specialized on either cadaver or scenting objects/particular people. Ground scent dogs are wonderful but if someone gets in a car and drives away they can lose the trail. However, an air scent dog can hang head out car window and keep smelling!

 

[Theonly1]

Problem with many scent dogs, especially air scent, is that if someone got in a car and you stay on foot, the dog will wear itself and you out chasing that gosh-darned scent! Then you have to stick a thermometer up its fanny to ensure they do not overheat. Working dogs can be really fun but a challenge.

 

[gramcracker]

^^^ OT: have you read this? if so, what did you think? I enjoyed it, but I'm a civilian so I have no clue LOL

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Scent-Missing-Partnership-Search---Rescue/dp/B004X8W5P8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402110028&sr=1-1&keywords=scent+of+the+missing"]Scent of the Missing: Love and Partnership with a Search-and-Rescue Dog: Susannah Charleson: 0971488017791: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YV7ATb9lL.@@AMEPARAM@@51YV7ATb9lL[/ame]

j

 

[RANCH]

On dogs: there are ones who are ground trained with scent and others that are air-trained. There are dogs who search for, say live people, via a scent object. They can be either ground or air type. Cadaver dogs are usually scent trained on cadaver scent. The dogs we worked with usually specialized on either cadaver or scenting objects/particular people. Ground scent dogs are wonderful but if someone gets in a car and drives away they can lose the trail. However, an air scent dog can hang head out car window and keep smelling!

When you say "cadaver scent" do you mean actual scents obtained from deceased human beings? That can be difficult for a lot of dog handlers to obtain so many use things like decomposing human blood or other decomposing human tissues from living subjects as training aids.

I find it interesting that you use the term "Cadaver Dog" versus "HRD Dog" (Human Remains Detection) which is a more accurate name for these dogs in my opinion.

 

[gramcracker]

cadaver scents are readily available for purchase, just like the doe-in-estrus urine scents that deer hunters use