PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #5

[J. J. in Phila]

I think this pretty well sums up the "investigation" into the disappearance of Ray Gricar. I have no problem with LE not releasing important information; however, when they do, they ought to keep their stories straight. This is one example of the misinformation released to the public; there are others, including the "fingerprint" info.

The contradictions about the software seemed to have sprouted legs....they just keeps growing.

First, Patty Fornicola recalls seeing a software box but it isn't found.

Second, Madeira said there was no receipt or evidence that Gricar ever purchased any hard drive erasing software.

Rickard then says Gricar did indeed purchase the software.

And today, it's reported that Shawn Weaver said they found the software box a long time ago.

CDT journalist Sara Ganim says I need to look at the bigger picture.
Well folks - the picture ain't purty. Bellefonte apparently can't get their **** straight.

From the looks of it.....I think they're working overtime to try and sweep Gricar under the rug before the election of a new DA.

First of all, Fornicola said she thought she had seen a box for the erasing software. LE reported that they found the box, but not that Fornicola had possession of it.

There are, obviously, selective released, but the story is the same.

I stated, at the beginning of the week, that I'd never e-mailed Detective Rickard; when I made the statement, it was accurate. I never said I didn't communicate with him.

 

[Nowisthetime]

Read today's 4:59 AM "The Daily Collegian" report on the views of the candidates for DA, a report that hasn't made it to the CDT at 10:00 AM!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Read today's 4:59 AM "The Daily Collegian" report on the views of the candidates for DA, a report that hasn't made it to the CDT at 10:00 AM!

The one who said the most was Madeira. It's a political hot potato, and he is wearing oven mitts.

 

[Nowisthetime]

MM's response was more of the same. The only "new" info. was how he felt when he heard RG was missing.

Detailed . . . I think not!

 

[christine2448]

snips

As far as the dog finding the scent in the parking lot. With all the other smoke & mirrors by LE, how do we know what was used to scent the dogs? Supposedly, LE picked up a piece of clothing at PF's house. Isn't it possible the dog scented the wrong person? I don't know much about dogs/scenting, but I will try to find out from an expert & let you know.

This is my opinion, to which I am entitled. I am here because I believe the readers here need to see an "alternative" theory as to what happened to Ray Gricar & why some of us don't believe he walked away.

I have posted K9 training manuals here on the site somewhere....but you can google and find out a lot of info on K9, dog scent.

As far as your opinion, "to which you are entitled"..there are MANY who are unsure what exactly happened to Mr Gricar...actually, only those involved could possibly know. We discuss it ALL here. Nice to have the interest in the case again, it's been 4 long years of allotta bout nothing...so little to go on!

Your interest and participation are greatly appreciated!!! :clap::blowkiss:

 

[nittany90]

Okay, this is for all of you.
Can you give me a link, an official cite, stating exactly what PF said Gricar relayed to her in that infamous "last phone call"? I've heard conflicting comments and generalities, but I'm looking to see if he ever actually precisely stated his destination for the day. "I'm taking the day off, on 192 headed toward Lewisburg to do some antiquing" or "I'm on 192, going to that little Street of Shops in Lewisburg".

Also, are there any evidence photos available showing the exact location in the SOS parking lot where the mini-cooper was found? I'm interested in pure logistics.

On a coincidental sidenote (JJ, this one is right up your alley) anyone have any idea how many red and white mini-coopers were registered to Lewisburg residents on April 15, 2005? I just happened to pass one (a very close match to Gricar's) on Rt. 192 in Lewisburg today Friday, April 17 at noon. What are the odds?

I say start at the beginning. All reports tend to show that Gricar was in Lewisburg around noon on Friday, 4-15-05. Weather pretty similar to today (then - 56, clear, slight wind blowing) (today, 65, clear, slight wind blowing). I just happened to end up at the SOS parking lot at 12:15 pm today. My impressions? There are 5 rows of parking spaces within the gravel/dirt parking lot on the corner of Water and St. John's Streets. Each row can comfortably hold 6 vehicles. That's a capacity of 30 vehicles in that one lot alone. In addition, there are several designated parking spaces on Water Street directly in front of the SOS, and more directly in front of the Park (on the same side of the SOS). Add 5 more spots on St. John Street, facing the SOS. Today (approximately noon, Friday mid-April) all spots were taken (roughly 40-45 vehicles crammed in a very small area). Assuming people's habits have not changed much over the last 4 years (and from the many, many times I've been on this street, I don't think they have), that means that we might conclude that the parking lot was pretty much the same at noon, Friday, April 15, 2005 (or am I leaping here?)

If there was any type of struggle, any type of eye-catching activity that we would expect from a man being forcibly removed during an abduction, WHY didn't anyone see anything? In the 10 minutes I stood there taking photos and taking it all in, there was pedestrian activity all around me. Not to mention, there is a house right on the edge of the parking lot. But, no-one saw anything? Of course, my limp theory does not preclude the calmness of a voluntary walk-away or a "casual" transfer between vehicles, or an average man taking a casual stroll down to the river with suicidal plans.

Another curious note. Directly beside the SOS, there is a small paved, driveway (sort of a back-entry for deliveries) sloping toward the river that is very secluded. The sloped area was not visible from the parking lot. It lead directly to the water. Also seemed to offer the very shortest path to the water. Hmmm...

And for the comments about offering different theories -- we all have one or more. The more we brainstorm, theorize, perhaps we can narrow down our theories to a reasonable conclusion. At least we can hope.

 

[Nowisthetime]

Check out this site; it has the most concise information that I know of ref. Ray F. Gricar.


http://politigal.googlepages.com/raygricar

 

[J. J. in Phila]

MM's response was more of the same. The only "new" info. was how he felt when he heard RG was missing.

Detailed . . . I think not!

The "new" information was the computer searches. It was an indirect way to remind the other candidates that he has information they do not.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Okay, this is for all of you.
Can you give me a link, an official cite, stating exactly what PF said Gricar relayed to her in that infamous "last phone call"? I've heard conflicting comments and generalities, but I'm looking to see if he ever actually precisely stated his destination for the day. "I'm taking the day off, on 192 headed toward Lewisburg to do some antiquing" or "I'm on 192, going to that little Street of Shops in Lewisburg".

Most of this was cited in the blog entry called "The Call About the Dog."

"Fornicola: And he called and said that, he said "I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Thanks. I love you." I said, "I love you too," and that was the last I heard from him."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

Some accounts say "heading for Lewisburg," and say "Honey," the dog.

On a coincidental sidenote (JJ, this one is right up your alley) anyone have any idea how many red and white mini-coopers were registered to Lewisburg residents on April 15, 2005? I just happened to pass one (a very close match to Gricar's) on Rt. 192 in Lewisburg today Friday, April 17 at noon. What are the odds?

Three including the one Gricar was driving. One had a Maryland plate. Note that I do not list reported sightings of a Mini in my witness list, only those sightings of him including those with the Mini.

I say start at the beginning. All reports tend to show that Gricar was in Lewisburg around noon on Friday, 4-15-05. Weather pretty similar to today (then - 56, clear, slight wind blowing) (today, 65, clear, slight wind blowing). I just happened to end up at the SOS parking lot at 12:15 pm today. My impressions? There are 5 rows of parking spaces within the gravel/dirt parking lot on the corner of Water and St. John's Streets. Each row can comfortably hold 6 vehicles. T

I do not have a specific time of 12:15 only around lunchtime.

The first sightings, in the early afternoon, were across from the Packwood Museum. The SoS parking lot sightings were between 5:30 and 6:30. Both clusters were multiple sightings. Mr. Gricar was also seen in the SoS during that period.

There is a blog on that as well, along with a combined witness list.

 

[nittany90]

Most of this was cited in the blog entry called "The Call About the Dog."

"Fornicola: And he called and said that, he said "I'm on 192. I'm not going to make it home to take care of the dog. Would you be able to go home?" And I said, "Sure." He said, "Thanks. I love you." I said, "I love you too," and that was the last I heard from him."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

Some accounts say "heading for Lewisburg," and say "Honey," the dog.

Three including the one Gricar was driving. One had a Maryland plate. Note that I do not list reported sightings of a Mini in my witness list, only those sightings of him including those with the Mini.



I do not have a specific time of 12:15 only around lunchtime.

The first sightings, in the early afternoon, were across from the Packwood Museum. The SoS parking lot sightings were between 5:30 and 6:30. Both clusters were multiple sightings. Mr. Gricar was also seen in the SoS during that period.

There is a blog on that as well, along with a combined witness list.

Thanks, JJ for the cite. So, Patty didn't KNOW what he was wearing on Friday am (he was still in bed when she left for work). We're going on eyewitness testimony to explain what he was wearing on Friday in Lewisburg. Do you find it curious that he was reported wearing the same clothes as verified on the video camera the previous evening in Bellefonte? There were so many conflicting reports about Patty stating he had said "I'm on 192 headed toward Lewisburg" in his 11:12 am phone call, and I couldn't understand why, with that info, it would take PSP until 6:30 pm Saturday to find his mini.

Any idea on the exact spot the mini was found? I found a photo online indicating the spot, but it was the wrong season (evidenced by the outlying trees being in full-leaf status, but couldn't verify it's source (and I don't want to screw up my list of evidence without at least a reportable source). I'm interested to know, if sitting in his car/standing by his car, what he could have seen and couldn't have seen around him.

BTW, I don't have a specific time of 12:15 in Lewisburg either, only around noon. I just tried to pick a medium timeframe for my photos.

I've only skimmed your blogs (it's on my list of "to-dos", but with a husband and kids and job, I can only obsess so much) -- not to question you in the least (no offense meant), do you provide links to sources?

Have you visited the parking lot/SOS? Your impressions?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks, JJ for the cite. So, Patty didn't KNOW what he was wearing on Friday am (he was still in bed when she left for work). We're going on eyewitness testimony to explain what he was wearing on Friday in Lewisburg. Do you find it curious that he was reported wearing the same clothes as verified on the video camera the previous evening in Bellefonte? There were so many conflicting reports about Patty stating he had said "I'm on 192 headed toward Lewisburg" in his 11:12 am phone call, and I couldn't understand why, with that info, it would take PSP until 6:30 pm Saturday to find his mini.

The call was 20-40 miles from Lewisburg, and there dead zone between that area and Lewisburg. I actually did provide a link that showed LE was still checking out the possibility something happened in Brush Valley even after the Mini was found.

The photo was from Tony Gricar.

BTW, I don't have a specific time of 12:15 in Lewisburg either, only around noon. I just tried to pick a medium timeframe for my photos.

I've only skimmed your blogs (it's on my list of "to-dos", but with a husband and kids and job, I can only obsess so much) -- not to question you in the least (no offense meant), do you provide links to sources?

Have you visited the parking lot/SOS? Your impressions?

When it comes to the evidence, generally. A bit, "McKnight's witness," came from a LE source as to the time/location. (I actually had the blog on the 4/15 Lewisburg witnesses vetted by my sources before posting it.)

Some things are just so well known, e.g. the call was placed from Brush Valley, it isn't worth finding the 4-5 sources that say it. Generally, if you ask a question that is a bit obscure (like when Sloane started at the DA's office) I'll try to find a reference.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

On the clothing, the fleece was outerwear. I checked the temperature and it was in 50's that morning. There isn't anything unusual in wearing the same outer garment two days in a row, with similar weather condition.

I will wear jeans two days in a row as well.

 

[Nowisthetime]

Check out this site; it has the most concise information that I know of ref. Ray F. Gricar.

http://politigal.googlepages.com/raygricar

In case you missed it the 1st time.

 

[txsleuth]

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

First, RFG asked about erasing the drive 14-16 months before he disappeared.

Second, it depends of who was had access to the laptop when the searches were made. If they are time stamped, and there is evidence that PEF was someplace else at the time, that explodes that theory.

 

[nittany90]

In case you missed it the 1st time.

Thank you. That's where I found TG's photo of the SOS parking lot.

 

[nittany90]

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

We know that either before or after his disappearance, PF had his passwords, because LE reported she was checking his personal email accounts for activity. Heck, this was reported by LE to be occuring less than 2 months after the disappearance (and before the lie detector tests). I'll try to find a link.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/ray_gricar/story/3781.html

WTH? LE allowing regular citizens (not to mention those very, very close to the investigation) monitor a missing person's online and financial activity? Just another screw up, IMO.

Was it ever determined if the bottled water (that was proven to be Gricar's) was taken from home (normal "brand" they bought and stocked at home) or do LE suspect it was purchased between Bellefonte and Lewisburg? I hope all the little mini markets between Bellefonte and Lewisburg were checked (for ID accounts and possible videotape evidence). Of course, it could have been left in his car from a previous trip, but to leave "trash" in his vehicle, seems out of character for Gricar.

Why, if it was a walkaway (and he had an accomplice) would he have allowed himself to be seen? Why deliberately go into the SOS, or on Market Street, just to be ID'd? Why not just sit in the car and wait for his accomplice? He was a smart man. He knew his disappearance would set off a local media frenzy. From where his car was supposedly parked, he had a clear view of all of the streets into the parking lot (hell, he could even see the Rt. 45 bridge from that location).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Was it ever determined if the bottled water (that was proven to be Gricar's) was taken from home (normal "brand" they bought and stocked at home) or do LE suspect it was purchased between Bellefonte and Lewisburg? I hope all the little mini markets between Bellefonte and Lewisburg were checked (for ID accounts and possible videotape evidence). Of course, it could have been left in his car from a previous trip, but to leave "trash" in his vehicle, seems out of character for Gricar.

The tried to see where irt was purchased, but I've never heard the response.

Why, if it was a walkaway (and he had an accomplice) would he have allowed himself to be seen? Why deliberately go into the SOS, or on Market Street, just to be ID'd? Why not just sit in the car and wait for his accomplice? He was a smart man. He knew his disappearance would set off a local media frenzy. From where his car was supposedly parked, he had a clear view of all of the streets into the parking lot (hell, he could even see the Rt. 45 bridge from that location).

He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

No media, no police.

If it was a willing attempt to walk away, the police would spend time looking in Lewisburg and in the river. It was the second potential delaying tactic.

 

[nittany90]

The tried to see where irt was purchased, but I've never heard the response.



He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

No media, no police.

If it was a willing attempt to walk away, the police would spend time looking in Lewisburg and in the river. It was the second potential delaying tactic.

Second potential delaying tactic? Elaborate, please.

 

[txsleuth]

"who had access to the laptop when the searches were made" - ???

The searches were done on the *home* computer JJ.