PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #5

[nittany90]

The tried to see where irt was purchased, but I've never heard the response.

He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

No media, no police.

If it was a willing attempt to walk away, the police would spend time looking in Lewisburg and in the river. It was the second potential delaying tactic.

Yes -- but he obviously had no "plan" to disappear that time. If walkaway is correct -- then he DID NOT plan to return this time, and therefore, should have been very cautious not to have an eyewitnesses to his presence. Now, if it was suicide he was planning, he would WANT witnesses to place him in Lewisburg on that day, or at the very least, not care if there were witnesses. But I have a hard time thinking a man who went there intending to kill himself, would have stopped in the SOS beforehand (and no body to me greatly lessens the suicide scenario).

 

[txsleuth]

JJ wrote this above:

He went away without telling anyone, including his then wife, for 36 hour once.

He failed to mention that Gricar was most likely separated from his then wife & in the process of a divorce...and may have possibly been on a date to Cleveland with girlfriend Patty Fornicola...hence the need for discretion.

 

[nittany90]

JJ wrote this above:



He failed to mention that Gricar was most likely separated from his then wife & in the process of a divorce...and may have possibly been on a date to Cleveland with girlfriend Patty Fornicola...hence the need for discretion.

Just because somebody did something ONCE in 59 years, doesn't mean he has a history of that behavior, and shouldn't be confused as such, JMO. Obviously, PEF was worried enough about his short absence to repeatedly call his cellphone and file a missing persons' report when he didn't return home in the timeframe she thought he should. And I guess she knows him better than any of us do.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Second potential delaying tactic? Elaborate, please.

The first potential one was that cell phone call. It kept the police looking in Brush Valley. The Mini was actually discovered by accident.

I didn't mention separation because he was living with his wife, according to his friend, Steve Sloane. I'd also question how his then wife could have known he didn't return home that night unless she was living there. He was also at a Cleveland Indians ball game. A bit more stretching of the truth from some quarters.

I also did not claim it was a pattern, only that he had been incommunicado for 36 hours one, whereabouts unknown, and nobody called the police, that time. It may establish an expectation.

PEF could not checked his computer two months afterward; the computers were taken on 4/17/05. The may have routed his personal account to a different computer.

 

[nittany90]

The first potential one was that cell phone call. It kept the police looking in Brush Valley. The Mini was actually discovered by accident.

I didn't mention separation because he was living with his wife, according to his friend, Steve Sloane. I'd also question how his then wife could have known he didn't return home that night unless she was living there. He was also at a Cleveland Indians ball game. A bit more stretching of the truth from some quarters.

I also did not claim it was a pattern, only that he had been incommunicado for 36 hours one, whereabouts unknown, and nobody called the police, that time. It may establish an expectation.

PEF could not checked his computer two months afterward; the computers were taken on 4/17/05. The may have routed his personal account to a different computer.

Thanks for the info on the first delay tactic.

I didn't say she was checking his computer -- I said PF was monitoring his email accounts -- info provided by LE directly from the linked source. Only relevance, IMO, is that 1. she knew his passwords at some point 2. just more evidence of poor investigation tactics.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Thanks for the info on the first delay tactic.

I didn't say she was checking his computer -- I said PF was monitoring his email accounts -- info provided by LE directly from the linked source. Only relevance, IMO, is that 1. she knew his passwords at some point 2. just more evidence of poor investigation tactics.

I'll agree with the tactics, but I'm not sure that she had the passwords. They could have been reset, after the fact.

Note that I said potential delaying tactic. The call clearly had the effect of focusing LE on Brush Valley. I cannot say if this was the intent.

 

[nittany90]

I'll agree with the tactics, but I'm not sure that she had the passwords. They could have been reset, after the fact.

Note that I said potential delaying tactic. The call clearly had the effect of focusing LE on Brush Valley. I cannot say if this was the intent.

If LE's goal was to monitor Gricar's email accounts, why would they change his passwords after the fact (he wouldn't be able to get access without knowing the new passwords, and therefore, the monitoring would be a useless endeavor). No, I don't think they changed the passwords. So, if PF's monitoring his email accounts, it stands to reason that she must have been privy to the original password(s).

I'm not convinced a delay tactic was his intent. If he wanted to detract attention away from Lewisburg (accepting eyewitness reports that he was indeed there on 04-15-05), then why not make the call from Bellefonte and don't mention you're on Rt. 192? Why make the call from Brush Valley, or anywhere on 192 for that matter (if you want to keep people away from point B, you don't give them hints that you're at point A headed toward point B. You lead them in a whole different direction. At the very least, if distraction or delay was the goal, you'd say you were headed to point C.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If LE's goal was to monitor Gricar's email accounts, why would they change his passwords after the fact (he wouldn't be able to get access without knowing the new passwords, and therefore, the monitoring would be a useless endeavor). No, I don't think they changed the passwords. So, if PF's monitoring his email accounts, it stands to reason that she must have been privy to the original password(s).

I'm not sure that she had access to any of his passwords before 4/15/05. The police did have his daughter monitoring his bank accounts.

I'm not convinced a delay tactic was his intent. If he wanted to detract attention away from Lewisburg (accepting eyewitness reports that he was indeed there on 04-15-05), then why not make the call from Bellefonte and don't mention you're on Rt. 192? Why make the call from Brush Valley, or anywhere on 192 for that matter (if you want to keep people away from point B, you don't give them hints that you're at point A headed toward point B. You lead them in a whole different direction. At the very least, if distraction or delay was the goal, you'd say you were headed to point C.

Well, first, the call was in a rural area 20-40 miles from where the Mini was found.

Second, it was in a sparsely populated area, without cell coverage beyond a point. It gave LE a focus point, which turned out to wrong. It clearly had that effect, if not that intent. That is where LE spent most of 4/16 searching. They even went back after the car was found in Lewisburg.

Third, it gave LE a record they could verify with electronic records.

In all seriousness, if I wanted to make sure that the police would be start searching some place I wasn't, I'd do that.

 

[nittany90]

Christine - First, I just wanted to tell you that in my voracious reading and digesting over the weekend, I came across your sister's story and your personal connection to Ray Gricar. Bless your sister and your family! :blowkiss: And thank you, thank you for continuing to keep Ray's memory alive here. I don't know what I believe yet, but the one thing that has remained constant over the last 20 years is my belief that Ray was a good man. So, thank you!

Now -- some questions.

Anyone have info/link that Lara had just recently reconnected with RG prior to his disappearance? Confirm she is adopted?

Anyone have a info/link to the report allegedly made to PSP in Milton about a tan vehicle following a red Mini-Cooper on 80 on 04/15/05? Or, has this info ONLY been linked to the psychic?

 

[nittany90]

JJ
Your blog states that the bartender was the first Wilkes Barre eyewitness (saw RG in suit, talked about Cleveland Indians, etc). Then, you later say that the 2nd eyewitness to the same scenario was an out-of-town, off-duty cop, kinda just passing thru. You've also said that the 2nd witness coming forth made it more credible to you (since he was a cop AND that that now, there were 2 identical eyewitness accounts).

On another blog, you supported your position by posting that "LE went to the location and asked the bartender: The police officer either called BPD or PSP".

From this article in the Philadelphia Daily News (05/13/05) the following was snipped:

"But on April 22, a man in Wilkes-Barre - some two hours east of Bellefonte - called police and said that he had conversed with a man who appeared to be Gricar on April 18, some three days after the D.A. went missing.

After local cops interviewed the man, they found another witness from the same establishment who also ID'd Gricar. Both witnesses said they were 100 percent certain it was the missing D.A.

The thing about the sighting that struck investigators is that the witnesses said the man talked about the Cleveland Indians - and they had been likely unaware when they went to authorities that Gricar indeed was a lifelong Indians fan.

But the Wilkes-Barre witnesses also said the man had been wearing a suit, even though Gricar was wearing jeans when he went missing."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1402467/posts

I think it was the PO who first reported the sighting. (The first call came in on 4/22 (4 days after the alleged sighting). I think the bartender came second, after being "found" by LE after hearing the PO's original story. Does the order of witnesses (supported by the article) have any bearing on how much credibility to give the sightings?

 

[nittany90]

Are there 2 Judge Grines on the bench in Centre County? The one I saw in a photo CANNOT possibly be the same one who knew Gricar for 25 years....could it be his son?

 

[Nowisthetime]

Christine - First, I just wanted to tell you that in my voracious reading and digesting over the weekend, I came across your sister's story and your personal connection to Ray Gricar. Bless your sister and your family! :blowkiss: And thank you, thank you for continuing to keep Ray's memory alive here. I don't know what I believe yet, but the one thing that has remained constant over the last 20 years is my belief that Ray was a good man. So, thank you!

Now -- some questions.

Anyone have info/link that Lara had just recently reconnected with RG prior to his disappearance? Confirm she is adopted?

Anyone have a info/link to the report allegedly made to PSP in Milton about a tan vehicle following a red Mini-Cooper on 80 on 04/15/05? Or, has this info ONLY been linked to the psychic?

Bellefonte, (PRWEB) June 5, 2005 -- Police investigating the disappearance of Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar are scouting nearby Milton for possible locations that could match recent descriptions given by psychic detective Carla Baron.

Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said Baron's description of a tan or brown vehicle following a Mini Cooper like the one Gricar drove along Route 192 on April 15 - the day he vanished - meshes with earlier, unreleased witness reports to state police in Milton.

Baron also has told investigators that at some point during Gricar's drive, the opportunity presented itself and a move was made to get Gricar into the tailing tan car. Baron believes someone leaned into the passenger side window of the Mini Cooper while smoking a cigarette to coerce Gricar from his car.

State police reports of witness accounts also note a similar scene, Zaccagni said. They describe someone leaning in to talk to the driver before the car pulls away abruptly.

"The little things have come back to be verified," he said.
(snip)

 

[Nowisthetime]

From "The River's Edge".

(snip)
In 1978, he and Barbara adopted a newborn girl, Lara. When Barbara was offered a position at Penn State in 1985, Ray took the opportunity to take some time off, opting to become a stay-at-home dad. They moved into a house near State College, Pennsylvania. This brief respite from the dark side of human nature was short-lived. Eventually, the darkness found him.
(snip)

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think it was the PO who first reported the sighting. (The first call came in on 4/22 (4 days after the alleged sighting). I think the bartender came second, after being "found" by LE after hearing the PO's original story. Does the order of witnesses (supported by the article) have any bearing on how much credibility to give the sightings?

That is correct, however, the first witness that was identified by profession was the bartender. That was reported in the Post Gazette.

The witness who first called the police was the police officer. After the police officer called, LE checked the location and found the bartender.

I'm not sure that he was too "disconnected." Lara had some type of accident in the early 2000's, skiing I think. He flew out to help take care of her. And yes, she is adopted. I got that straight from Tony.

Here is a link to the article. http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13...everywhere-and-nowhere-at-oncethe-rivers-edge

Be careful on that sight, it just set off my antivirus.

I've communicated one or twice with the author. Seems like a good guy.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Just in case there is problem with the site, the article, with additions, is found in James Renner's The Serial Killer's Apprentice.

 

[nittany90]

Bellefonte, (PRWEB) June 5, 2005 -- Police investigating the disappearance of Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar are scouting nearby Milton for possible locations that could match recent descriptions given by psychic detective Carla Baron.

Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said Baron's description of a tan or brown vehicle following a Mini Cooper like the one Gricar drove along Route 192 on April 15 - the day he vanished - meshes with earlier, unreleased witness reports to state police in Milton.

Baron also has told investigators that at some point during Gricar's drive, the opportunity presented itself and a move was made to get Gricar into the tailing tan car. Baron believes someone leaned into the passenger side window of the Mini Cooper while smoking a cigarette to coerce Gricar from his car.

State police reports of witness accounts also note a similar scene, Zaccagni said. They describe someone leaning in to talk to the driver before the car pulls away abruptly.

"The little things have come back to be verified," he said.
(snip)

Thanks!

 

[nittany90]

Just in case there is problem with the site, the article, with additions, is found in James Renner's The Serial Killer's Apprentice.

Thanks -- my anti-malware didn't like that site either. Is it available online or do I have to buy the book?

 

[nittany90]

That is correct, however, the first witness that was identified by profession was the bartender. That was reported in the Post Gazette.

The witness who first called the police was the police officer. After the police officer called, LE checked the location and found the bartender.

I'm not sure that he was too "disconnected." Lara had some type of accident in the early 2000's, skiing I think. He flew out to help take care of her. And yes, she is adopted. I got that straight from Tony.

Here is a link to the article. http://www.freetimes.com/stories/13...everywhere-and-nowhere-at-oncethe-rivers-edge

Be careful on that sight, it just set off my antivirus.

I've communicated one or twice with the author. Seems like a good guy.

So, just to clarify, the order that LE talked to witnesses and got their similar accounts was police officer then bartender. Police officer on 4/22 and bartender (sometime after 4/22 but before 4/29)?

Don't mean to seem dense -- I'm just on "gricar overload". :yow:

Anyone have any links from published reports on the Lewisburg witnesses (not from SOS)? I'm having a really hard time finding official attribution. And, if I can't attribute it to a source, I can't put in in my eyewitness database.

And, am I correct that all eyewitness sightings after April 18, have been discounted/rejected/unsubstantiated by LE?

 

[Nowisthetime]

Gricar family, friends hold on to hope

By Pete Bosak
pbosak@centredaily.com

BELLEFONTE -- One year after former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar disappeared, the man who replaced him said it will take a bit of good fortune to determine what became of the man.

"It would take that lucky stroke or fortuitous lead," District Attorney Michael Madeira said at a news conference Friday morning in Bellefonte. "We would take a stroke of luck."

Gricar took the day off on April 15, 2005. That day, he called his live-in girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, to tell her he was taking a drive on state Route 192 toward Lewisburg. He has been neither seen nor heard from since. His car was found a day later in a parking lot in Lewisburg.

(snip)
Authorities say the investigation into the disappearance -- a probe that has involved Bellefonte police, State College police, state police, the state attorney general's office, the FBI, the Secret Service and the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department -- is no closer to determining what happened to Gricar than it was a year ago.

"What is important for people to know," Madeira said, "is that over time, as the leads grow cold, the interest of law enforcement, my interest, as well as the public's interest in this case will not."

Darrel Zaccagni, the Bellefonte officer who has been leading the investigation, admits he is frustrated. "The leads are getting far and few between," he said. "So where do we go?"

Police have pursued a plethora of reported Gricar sightings, all discounted.
(snip)

 

[Nowisthetime]

Reports of Gricar sightings in Wilkes-Barre also have not panned out. Zaccagni said the most recent sighting of Gricar comes out of Michigan, and like other leads, officers are following up, even though there is a strong likelihood it will turn out to be yet another red herring.

"We'll check it out," Zaccagni said.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/6/prweb247770.php