PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #9

[J. J. in Phila]

Just to be clear regarding phones and records.

The would obviously be a record of toll calls coming into the Courthouse. If there were calls from Lewisburg, for example, those numbers could be traced (I think those would be toll calls.).

Same with RFG's home phone. Toll calls would be tracked by the phone company for billing purposes.

There probably would not be records of local land line calls. If someone was calling him from Bellefonte or State College, I doubt if there would be a record.

There is a record for cell calls, but LE has said that there was nothing there. They have not even released redacted records of the calls.

 

[WDW]

It is entirely possible that RFG was on the phone in his office to a person he was going to meet in Lewisburg and that the person asked a question about driving to Lewisburg, e.g. the time it would take to get there or the right street to turn on. He generated the map to give them an answer.

So was it a trip map or just an area map? Big difference in my mind. If he just looked up the Lewisburg area he might be looking for something new to do in Lewisburg. If it is a trip map with route and time information, then the phone contact scenario makes a lot of sense. In my mind that would point even more strongly toward a murder. Gricar would not have made that search from a computer that he knew would be searched if he was walking away aided by an accomplice. He would not have made phone calls from the office to coordinate either. He would have to fear those records would give up the accomplice.

 

[WDW]

The would obviously be a record of toll calls coming into the Courthouse. If there were calls from Lewisburg, for example, those numbers could be traced (I think those would be toll calls.).

I think that even local exchange calls are considered "toll" calls. Only private exchange calls are not.

The service provider (or possibly the ILEC if the service provider was a CLEC) should have/had all records of calls to and from the office/courthouse. Those records would show everyone who called on a given day (and every call made). What they would not show is who internally received or originated the call.

Maybe hard to sift through, but still useful information if you are trying to establish that a meeting might have taken place.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

So was it a trip map or just an area map? Big difference in my mind. If he just looked up the Lewisburg area he might be looking for something new to do in Lewisburg. If it is a trip map with route and time information, then the phone contact scenario makes a lot of sense. In my mind that would point even more strongly toward a murder. Gricar would not have made that search from a computer that he knew would be searched if he was walking away aided by an accomplice. He would not have made phone calls from the office to coordinate either. He would have to fear those records would give up the accomplice.

My understanding was that it was a route map.

He knew that the Courthouse lines wouldn't be recorded.

The map could be to give someone else the time it would take to get to Lewisburg. RFG was know as an "adventurous driver," and was known to overlook the speed limits. He also knew how to get to Lewisburg.

Everything points to him wanting to be in Lewisburg at a specific time. I'm pretty much convinced that he wanted to be in Lewisburg for something scheduled. He might have been leaving a clue to where the car was, but why not just print the map and leave it on his desk, or leave PEF a note?

There was nothing on his schedule of official business and it would be unusual to conduct Centre County business, secretly, 50 miles away.

I've never heard of anyone wanting to commit suicide on schedule.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think that even local exchange calls are considered "toll" calls. Only private exchange calls are not.

The service provider (or possibly the ILEC if the service provider was a CLEC) should have/had all records of calls to and from the office/courthouse. Those records would show everyone who called on a given day (and every call made). What they would not show is who internally received or originated the call.

Maybe hard to sift through, but still useful information if you are trying to establish that a meeting might have taken place.

I'm pretty sure that a call into the Courthouse, that was local, would not be a toll call. I called Bellefonte once or twice while at Penn State, and I never had a bill for it.

It is possible that RFG handed or mailed the map to some other person. That would strongly point to walkaway. They have never indicated when the map was generated.

If there was a time the map was generated, the "sifting" could commence. I'd also be looking at calls coming into the Courthouse from Lewisburg, or to any of that inner circle, made from Lewisburg on 4/15.

 

[WDW]

Everything points to him wanting to be in Lewisburg at a specific time. I'm pretty much convinced that he wanted to be in Lewisburg for something scheduled. He might have been leaving a clue to where the car was, but why not just print the map and leave it on his desk, or leave PEF a note?

Because he didn't think he was in danger. Thought he was coming back.

If he thought he was in danger, he would have confided in someone. He would not have just left a map on his desk or computer. Right?

Another thing... if the route map was from Bellefonte to Lewisburg and he produced it to estimate time for someone he was speaking with on the phone, the person he was meeting would have to be coming from Bellefonte too.

 

[WDW]

I'm pretty sure that a call into the Courthouse, that was local, would not be a toll call. I called Bellefonte once or twice while at Penn State, and I never had a bill for it.

Residential service typically bundles local calls. Phone companies stopped itemizing them because of the printing and mailing costs. They are still audited. If you call the phone company and ask for the local calls to be itemized, I'm pretty sure they will still do that.

It is possible that RFG handed or mailed the map to some other person. That would strongly point to walkaway. They have never indicated when the map was generated.

And that would be a problem.

If there was a time the map was generated, the "sifting" could commence. I'd also be looking at calls coming into the Courthouse from Lewisburg, or to any of that inner circle, made from Lewisburg on 4/15.

That does not make sense to me. Browser histories have time stamps. If it is printed, the time of printing gets logged even for a locally attached printer. Where was this map found w/o a timestamp? Maybe LE just does not want to release that information. Maybe the forensic experts are not fully competent (this would not surprise me after watching the Casey Anthony trial).

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Because he didn't think he was in danger. Thought he was coming back.

Well, if RFG was going to meet someone 50 miles to discuss a case with someone possibly criminal, why wouldn't he just take precautions, like telling someone else on staff, or leaving a message?

That is a rhetorical question.

Another thing... if the route map was from Bellefonte to Lewisburg and he produced it to estimate time for someone he was speaking with on the phone, the person he was meeting would have to be coming from Bellefonte too.

He could have wanted to double check the time, if he really wanted to be there at a specific time.

If he was talking to someone else, it could be about directions for someone crossing Lewisburg, but definitely from the west. Even that would be difficult.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Smallish women appear neat and professional easier than a plus- sized woman does.

I don't really get your bolded statement. He had a type...if his type was a bigger woman, he would have been with a bigger woman.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That does not make sense to me. Browser histories have time stamps. If it is printed, the time of printing gets logged even for a locally attached printer. Where was this map found w/o a timestamp? Maybe LE just does not want to release that information. Maybe the forensic experts are not fully competent (this would not surprise me after watching the Casey Anthony trial).

It took them about 5 years and 10 months to release that little detail, and I think they discovered it in the first week. They do hold back stuff. Yes, there should be a record of when he did that search. Keep in mind that RFG had access to that computer as last as 9:00 PM on 4/14/05.

I know my browser doesn't keep stuff indefinitely, that is readily accessible.

I'm not sure about the local record. The only time I've heard about it is if there is a tap on the phone or a billable call.

 

[WDW]

I'm not sure about the local record. The only time I've heard about it is if there is a tap on the phone or a billable call.

I have more confidence in LE phone than computer knowledge, and I have more confidence in my own computer knowledge than phone. If they say the local calls are not logged then I guess they were not logged.

 

[WDW]

The legal volume turned open to the page on replacing a DA always stuck me as under developed information. Could someone have done it ex post out of morbid curiosity?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The legal volume turned open to the page on replacing a DA always stuck me as under developed information. Could someone have done it ex post out of morbid curiosity?

That is actually my theory, or that someone checked it on 4/17-18 and forgot it in the confusion

I did some experimentation and tried to duplicate it using two different bound volumes and seeing if it would open to the page. After about an hour closed, it would. After 80 hours, it would not.

Here is the blog on the experiment: http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/01/2396725/the-code-book.html

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I have more confidence in LE phone than computer knowledge, and I have more confidence in my own computer knowledge than phone. If they say the local calls are not logged then I guess they were not logged.

I've never heard of a case, with local calls that are not billed, or where there is a phone tap, where LE was able to get phone records. Toll calls are billed; cell calls are obviously billed.

I think it is a valid point, however, to check phone contacts.

 

[SeekingJana]

I don't really get your bolded statement. He had a type...if his type was a bigger woman, he would have been with a bigger woman.

So? What's so hard to understand that a neat man would choose a neat- looking " type" of woman more than once?
Your argument is hollow, Twinkile " starry".
I'm not taking your bait.

I'm here because I care about a missing man, although I do believe he is alive and safe. I'm definitely not here to argue with you about anything, Waste of time.

 

[WDW]

What types of meetings could end violence? Here are the ones going through my head:

girlfriend
criminal destroying evidence
ex convict blames prosecutor
victim blames prosecutor
acquaintance of the previously mentioned

What am I missing?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What types of meetings could end violence? Here are the ones going through my head:

girlfriend
criminal destroying evidence
ex convict blames prosecutor
victim blames prosecutor
acquaintance of the previously mentioned

What am I missing?

I think you can take destroying evidence off the list. No criminal would know if RFG had copies of the evidence at home or at the office, especially if the evidence was digitized.

Why would a public figure, a prosecutor, any prosecutor, not want to be seen with someone in his jurisdiction? The purpose of the meeting is illegal. The person that he's meeting would create a PR problem, either for the prosecutor or the person he is meeting. Those would be possibilities, generically. Add those.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

What types of meetings could end violence? Here are the ones going through my head:

girlfriend
criminal destroying evidence
ex convict blames prosecutor
victim blames prosecutor
acquaintance of the previously mentioned

What am I missing?

If I were sure that RFG was overnight, I'd rule out ex convict and victim as well.

 

[WDW]

If I were sure that RFG was overnight, I'd rule out ex convict and victim as well.

What do you mean by overnight?

 

[CJMAJORGIRL24]

So? What's so hard to understand that a neat man would choose a neat- looking " type" of woman more than once?
Your argument is hollow, Twinkile " starry".
I'm not taking your bait.

I'm here because I care about a missing man, although I do believe he is alive and safe. I'm definitely not here to argue with you about anything, Waste of time.

I hope that you are right and that Mr. Gricar is alive and safe. It would be an answered prayer.