GUILTY PA - Tom, 51, Lisa, 47, & Kevin Haines, 16, murdered, Manheim Twp, 12 May 2007

[raisincharlie]

I don't think that video relates to this case. There was a boating accident on the Susquehanna River in which a young woman died. Her body was found below a dam. They had stopped above the dam for a picnic but the boat started drifting. They couldn't restart the engine and the boat went over. The other kids were ok but her body was found several days later.

That would make sense as there is a small dam shown in the video - just couldn't figure why it was linked to this case although LE has said they used dogs to track from the house to a certain area but did not say where the trail ended. Thanks.

 

[christine2448]

I've already alluded to some of this in posts here, but you all may want to see this:

http://crimeblog.us/?p=434

Steve/Mr. A.

Awesome read! Those that haven't should read this. Thanks Steve.

 

[txsvicki]

Someone commented on Steve's blog about Lisa being raped. Is this true or just a scenario? I still can't connect a young person doing such violence to the males but not the mom. The mom was still alive and could have gotten help, which is the story of what happened. Maybe the killer made sure that Lisa had died before he left since he had somewhere around or less than ten minutes after police were called. I also wonder if a person in such a violent rage would smash or destroy household items and if any of this happened in the home. There's lots of unanswered questions such as if Maggie turned on the hall light, if it was dark or not. If the brother wasn't lying there yet, then he probably didn't come out and interrupt the killer, so why was Lisa left alive with only one stab wound before moving on to the brother. Also, if someone was really immersed in violent killing games and premeditated this crime, they might have worn some sort of protection over their arms and hands and wouldn't have any wounds from the stabbing.

 

[misterallgood]

Someone commented on Steve's blog about Lisa being raped. Is this true or just a scenario? I still can't connect a young person doing such violence to the males but not the mom. The mom was still alive and could have gotten help, which is the story of what happened. Maybe the killer made sure that Lisa had died before he left since he had somewhere around or less than ten minutes after police were called. I also wonder if a person in such a violent rage would smash or destroy household items and if any of this happened in the home.

It was a scenario, and that person seemed to draw it out of thin air.

As to the young person doing violence to the males -- think about it: who might be more threatening? Who might be more sympathetic, and cause some hesitance on the part of the killer? Men are usually larger and a killer might anticipate them putting up a fight.

It makes a lot of sense to me, txsvicki.

It may be a mistake to interpret this tiple murder as a crime of frenzied rage. I imagine it was more of a planned, icily controlled act.

Steve/Mr. A.

 

[txsvicki]

It was a scenario, and that person seemed to draw it out of thin air.

As to the young person doing violence to the males -- think about it: who might be more threatening? Who might be more sympathetic, and cause some hesitance on the part of the killer? Men are usually larger and a killer might anticipate them putting up a fight.

It makes a lot of sense to me, txsvicki.

It may be a mistake to interpret this tiple murder as a crime of frenzied rage. I imagine it was more of a planned, icily controlled act.

Steve/Mr. A.

Thanks. I still don't understand leaving Lisa alive and able to speak and possibly indentify or get to a phone unless it is a psychopath like BTK going back and forth between victims. Now I have myself wondering if they were bound.

 

[fran]

IMHO, he probably attacked the husband first as he would be the most threatening because of his size. When the wife woke up seeing her husband being attacked, a good stab in the stomach area may have left her temporarily unconscious.

By the time the mom came to, the perp was probably already in Kevin's room thus the ruckus that woke up the daughter. Margaret probably came to the parent's room to awake them. That's when the mom told her to go get help.

Margaret knew the perp was in the house, her dad was injurred or dead, her mom was hurt, her brother was being attacked, she probably ran as fast as she could to get help. She probably thought LE would get there in time to save her mom and brother.

I agree with Steve, "it was more of a planned, icily controlled act."
I also think the perp didn't realize sis was home.

FWIW and as an aside. I grew up in a family with three siblings, but during those days, at night, we left our bedroom doors open, even my parents. (which by the way saved our life one night because of a fire in the main part of the house) But these days, most people close their bedroom doors at night. I know, I raised six kids and they all had their doors closed and we did too. So, the perp not realizing the daughter was home is most probable.

JMHO
fran

 

[luthersmama]

Thanks. I still don't understand leaving Lisa alive and able to speak and possibly indentify or get to a phone unless it is a psychopath like BTK going back and forth between victims. Now I have myself wondering if they were bound.

Lisa may have passed out and the killer THOUGHT she was dead. Or she was not quite unconscious, but not moving.

There is no mention in the news of them having been bound, and I think that the police would have said so if they were. Likewise, there is no information that suggests any sexual assault of any of the victims.

 

[opme]

This older guy I wrote about (older than the teens, but he's younger than me, just so my usage of the word is clear) -- he runs a business that does what looks to be a kind of research & development. He's been active in Big Brothers & Big Sisters.

Something's not right there, is all I can say for now.

I tried to be even-handed in the blog entry, but I wouldn't trust any guy that age around my teen son for a minute, especially if he was unattached and his interest was not directly related to some pursuit like sports, Scouts, or perhaps the performing arts. And even then, I'd be vigilant.

Then again, I write about crime, so paranoia comes with the territory.

Steve/Mr. A.

I am inclined to beleive that focus was on Kevin and something he knew or was thought to have known and shared with his Dad. I think the Mom was collateral damage. I am very suspicious that either this adult was directly incvolved in the crime whether that just be the plannng, instigation, transportation or participating in the actual physical attack on the family.
I would not trust any adult male who is single with no children and heavily involved in activities that provide intimate access to children of any age.. in this day and age that is just synonymus with pedophilia. We all known from past news stories and criminal cases where the boy scouts/sports coaches/priests etc have been caught abusing children particpating in the activities. But an adault male that they have formed a relationship with not related to these types of activities sets of alarms for me.. there is something really wrong here. Then again I am highly suspicious and totally overprotective with my child.. but am not taking any chances in this day and age if i can avoid it.
Steve A- Thanks for pointing out your latest on this crime.. I had yet read it when I wrote the other comments.. I agree with you that this was a well planned crime and one committed with "icy calm" and was not a frenzied rage ..

 

[nanandjim]

Wild speculation again here: The murders could have been committed by a youngster out of misguided loyalty towards an older person. The older person could have lamented that he would get into big trouble if Kevin were to go to authorities. That could have gotten the ball rolling.

 

[swanniee11]

http://local.lancasteronline.com/10/204663

 

[Hbgchick]

I don't think that video relates to this case. There was a boating accident on the Susquehanna River in which a young woman died. Her body was found below a dam. They had stopped above the dam for a picnic but the boat started drifting. They couldn't restart the engine and the boat went over. The other kids were ok but her body was found several days later.

Holy crap, seriously? Sorry for the off topic post but do you have a link to this story? We were boating there just last weekend! Please PM me if you do. Thanks.

 

[PSUfan]

Holy crap, seriously? Sorry for the off topic post but do you have a link to this story? We were boating there just last weekend! Please PM me if you do. Thanks.

I sent it to you just now.

 

[indigomood]

sorry for the brief interruption but is there a thread here or discussion elsewhere on the random and brutal murder of Ray Diener by these four thugs?? I couldn't find it

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/204628

 

[PSUfan]

sorry for the brief interruption but is there a thread here or discussion elsewhere on the random and brutal murder of Ray Diener by these four thugs?? I couldn't find it

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/204628

I have not seen one here. Start one? It seems as if the 2 crimes -Haines family, and Mr.Diener are not related.

 

[indigomood]

I have not seen one here. Start one? It seems as if the 2 crimes -Haines family, and Mr.Diener are not related.

Yes, I don't believe they are related either but still bad news for Lancaster, Pa. one of my favorite places for a weekend drive through the beautiful rural farmlands...

Thanks for responding,
indigo

 

[indigomood]

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/204687

LANCASTER COUNTY, Pa. - A tip to Lancaster City-County Crime Stoppers proved instrumental in making arrests in one murder case this week, and police hope a separate tip might prove equally valuable.

A tip Saturday provided police with enough details to charge four Elizabethtown suspects Wednesday for the homicide of Ray R. Diener.

Crime Stoppers received another tip last week about the recent, grisly murders of Thomas, Lisa and Kevin Haines in Manheim Township.

However, the person hung up before further information could be obtained, Manheim Township Police Sgt. Thomas E. Rudzinski said.

The tips have shed light on the organization, which has seen its reach and effectiveness grow during the past few years.

Crime Stoppers received another tip last week about the recent, grisly murders of Thomas, Lisa and Kevin Haines in Manheim Township.

However, the person hung up before further information could be obtained, Manheim Township Police Sgt. Thomas E. Rudzinski said.

The tips have shed light on the organization, which has seen its reach and effectiveness grow during the past few years.

The 20-year-old group accepts anonymous tips about open cases and refers the information to police.

*more at link*

 

[opme]

http://www.wgal.com/news/13390883/detail.html

They're gruesome. They're awful. They're bloody. They're unbelievable," Kirchner said, adding that the victims were stabbed multiple times. Kirchner, a retired surgeon, has his own theory about the killer.
My theory is probably that this is a psychotic killer. And that means that the whole motivation for the killing is in his head. It's not out among people," said Kirchner. Shapiro asked Kirchner more about his take on the crime.

Shapiro: "What makes you think it's a psychotic killer?" Kirchner: "Because they're not coming up with anything. No motives. No people. I mean we're down to interviewing kids at school. They've gone to Florida to visit the daughter's college roommate."

More at the link above.....

 

[oceanblueeyes]

http://www.wgal.com/news/13390883/detail.html

They're gruesome. They're awful. They're bloody. They're unbelievable," Kirchner said, adding that the victims were stabbed multiple times. Kirchner, a retired surgeon, has his own theory about the killer.
My theory is probably that this is a psychotic killer. And that means that the whole motivation for the killing is in his head. It's not out among people," said Kirchner. Shapiro asked Kirchner more about his take on the crime.

Shapiro: "What makes you think it's a psychotic killer?" Kirchner: "Because they're not coming up with anything. No motives. No people. I mean we're down to interviewing kids at school. They've gone to Florida to visit the daughter's college roommate."

More at the link above.....

Its interesting that the DA is very displeased with this Coroner and says he has interjected himself into cases before where he has no expertise.

I frankly find the Coroner a little reckless with his predictions as they do nothing but strike more fear in the community when the perp may not be a random serial killer at all but someone known to this family.

imoo

 

[concernedperson]

This person could be psychotic but I believe he knows the family or knows of them. Most serial killers don't murder several at a time. It seems they like to stalk and "enjoy" the kill for a while. This is more like a spree killer with rage as if he was off his meds to do the crime. Also, I would imagine he has some evidence of cuts or bruises...it takes a lot to knife three people to death by yourself.

 

[misterallgood]

I finally realized the murders I'm most reminded of when I think about the circumstances here -- the double homicide of Leslie Mazzara and Adriane Insogna in Napa, CA on Halloween, 2004.

In the middle of the night, one person escaped unscathed, one particular victim seemed targeted, the murders were committed by knife.

Eric Matthew Copple, the man convicted of killing Leslie and Adriane, was at the time engaged to Lily Prudhomme, a very good friend of Adriane's. Eric has never said why he did it, but the most logical thinking has been that he perceived Adriane as an obstacle to his relationship with Lily. That Adriane may have been trying to poison his fiancee against him. Eric got very drunk, surveyed the house for a while, chain-smoking Camels, then sometime after midnight he broke in, rushed upstairs, and attacked Leslie and Adriane. Adriane was the target, and received the most brutal wounds. Leslie died from just a few stab wounds, but one of those was directly in her heart.

A young man who had never killed before, acting out of a kind of alcohol-fueled psychotic rage. In reality, the crime was as senseless as senseless could be, but the reason that's been posed -- Copple essentially being jealous and worried that his wife-to-be was slipping from his grasp -- has made a lot of sense. I think of such crimes as "semi-random." The killer knew the victims, but until that night, he may not have fully conceived of killing them, or anyone else, for that matter.

Check out Paul LaRosa's book, Nightmare in Napa, for the only book-length treatment of the Wine Country murders so far. Well-done true crime.

The more I think about it, the weirder the parallels seem to be. If the Napa comparison holds, the killer definitely knew the victims, but he may not have planned out the murders with any real calculation. He is anywhere between 16 and 24, and just as they said at first, doesn't come across as the type who would do this at all. Eric Copple didn't. He came across as weird, at best. Very quiet, passive-aggressive kind of guy.

I'll be writing a blog entry about the comparison this weekend.

Steve/Mr. A