Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #11

[nums24]

JVDS reasoning early on:
The argument, physical fight, and he knocks her out. Finishes it.
He thinks about putting her body in the duffle bag. Can't do it. She is too heavy. Suit case or duffle is not large enough.

He re-thinks this.

He re-positions the body. He is going to say, "I left her to sleep it off. She was drunk. She must have got up, and hit her head on the bed frame. How terrible, but not my fault". Yea. That works.

Now he must jump through a few hoops, to make this believable.
He is thinking on his feet, as much as anything. No plan, he is deciding, second by second.

I agree with someone back a page or two: He may have stepped outside the door, initially to see if anyone was out there. Did anyone hear anything? No; good.
He is in the hallway, and it is a perfect opportunity to get someone from housekeeping, to witness him carrying two coffee cups,

He believes his plan is coming together. His story is, he left her alive, but sleeping it off. She must have fallen and ... He tells housekeeping, "not to disturb my girl" (if that report is correct).

Why did JVDS confess so quickly?
The Peru National Police and Interpol must have presented a very compelling case of evidence to JVDS. Layed their cards on the table, so to speak. In the manner a Poker player would understand - face up! Here's what we've got. No b.s. with months of "discovery" and both sides making endless motion about lack of time for discovery, etc. etc.

Courts in the U.S. ought to take note.

I couldn't agree with you more!

 

[seagull65]

JVDS is not criminally insane. He knows right from wrong. If fact, he ran to Chile after the murder, which is consciousness of guilt (i.e. knowing he committed a murder and knowing it was wrong). Further, he attempted to disguise his appearance by lightening his hair, another indicator.

We've never going to know what exactly set him off. Why? Because he's never going to tell the truth! It could be anything...or nothing...he is known to have a hair trigger temper. He has no impulse control. He is also known to be a pathological liar--and likes making a game out of lying and then lying some more.

So all of this is interesting, but ultimately a fruitless exercise in guessing with no confirmation.

But: he will not get away with the crime, he is not insane, he knows right from wrong, he does display what is considered psychopathic tendencies, he is remorseless, he is a liar, and he will not ever change at his core. He is what he is. He was that way when he was 13 and he's the same today (just larger and even more dangerous).

He will do just fine in that Castro Castro prison--he's physically larger than everyone else, just as cunning, will get more cunning and cutthroat in the days ahead, will make his little deals on the side, and will probably have a few guards eating out of his hands eventually. Don't you (all) worry about poor little JVDS. He is not a lamb to the slaughter--he earned his way into that prison and will fit in quite well.

they may like to repeat over and over in the tabloid press than JVDS (and any other defendant charged with a violent crime) is a psychopath and not insane, but we don't actually know what condition he has or doesn't have yet as far as I know, he could have actual mental illness that hasn't been diagnosed yet. According to DSM standard at least, various mental illnesses have to be ruled out before a diagnosis of Antisocial Personality can be made. For example, a person could exhibit the same behaviors as a psychopath but if they were doing those things when incapacited by a schizophrenic or manic episode or drugs and unaware of what they were doing, it is not Antisocial Personality. There isn't the same awareness. There's an element of delirium/confusion.

But what happened when he was 13? I haven't read about that yet.

 

[Beyond Belief]

The one thing I am not understanding is why he didn't pay his rent ahead of time since he had her money to insure that no one would enter that room. If his rent was really up wouldn't housekeeping automatically go in there to ready the room for the next person? Not making any sense unless the report of rent due is incorrect.

 

[newone]

Yes. He played under the name AANOTILTKK on party poker. You can go to sharkscope.com and look up his record. He was a losing player. Looks like he got lucky in a NL Texas Holdem Sunday Million Tournament and finished in the top 30 or so for a 12K payout.

previously posted this linkhttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,594382,00.html

"And they believe that both avid poker players had met a few days before she was murdered. They knew each other a few days before. He'd been observing her as a poker player a week before police said she won $10,000 playing poker. Apparently he, according to police, selected her as a victim that he wanted to rob.

And apparently, through chatting her up, they went back to the hotel room. That's shown on video footage. It's also shown how they were playing on the same poker table.

According to an unofficial police source, he had helped her out with a little money. Apparently they went back to share out the money, their winnings. "


Am thinking that they both were ''problem'' gamblers and there was a 'dispute' about who was 'entitled' to the winnings that night or how to play any upcoming games.

 

[BuzzieCat]

oh I agree Jwarner. I don't think he appears to be calculating, or self-serving. More the opposite. I wouldn't be surprised if he has episodes where he loses control or even awareness, there could be rage during the episodes, or maybe not. I thought he looked dazed and confused standing at the door. Of course the NG types like to insist he's a "Psychopath" (i.e. aware of what he's doing, antisocial personality), (and he could be), but schizophrenic or manic episodes, and a few other conditions, would have to be ruled out and we'd have to know a lot more about his behavior and history before we could come to the conclusion that he's sane, just psychopathic/antisocial personality. Of course with schizophrenia and mania it's pretty common for those to have their first onset when the person is in their early 20s. I would not be surprised to learn that he's experienced the onset of something like that.

Talking about the gestures he does with his hands like the interesting limp hand in the coffee video, standing there looking kind of dazed and helpless, not to mention the tapping or rapping on the door (could have been a staging kind of thing, pretending to be locked out, but then why not close the door first before doing it at least....and the tapping could have been something else, it looked weird and confused.).... in the Thailand video I thought I saw him do a strange involuntary-looking little hand flutter gesture at one point. I'm not sure, I would have to watch that again to have a closer look. I also noticed in videos when he talks he gestures mostly with his left hand, lots of movement and expression with his left hand while talking, you would think he's left-handed, but he appears to write with his right hand. Not important, just unusual little things, it's weird what catches your eye when you watch the videos. The hand flutter from the Thailand video, and the tapping on the door in this video made me wonder.

Speak of body language, I noticed that Stephany seemed to be almost stumbling slightly when she approached the table in the casino where he was sitting. I wondered what was making her kind of drag and almost stagger a bit like that, at first I thought, omg she was drugged or impaired somehow, but I guess she might have just been exhausted from being up all night

Interesting point you raise about the flapping left hand. I noticed that too, and yet he seems to write with his right hand. Also in the coffee video, he uses his right hand only to clutch the coffee cups to his chest and does all the dexterity-requiring moves (doorknob finagling, possibly flipping the door key behind the pastry) with his left hand. I mean seriously, he was holding a pastry and pulling the doorknob closed, and IF he was holding a key on top of that and managing to hide it behind the pastry, that's pretty talented to do all that with your nondominant hand. :waitasec:

As far as a possible mental disorder, it would take a lot to convince me that JVDS has some sort of blackout rages that are conveniently impossible control and only happen when someone has something he wants or makes him angry. IMO he looks too smug in between times for me to believe that he doesn't remember/doesn't know that he is doing these things and can't control it.

 

[hollyblue]

oh I agree Jwarner. I don't think he appears to be calculating, or self-serving. More the opposite. I wouldn't be surprised if he has episodes where he loses control or even awareness, there could be rage during the episodes, or maybe not. I thought he looked dazed and confused standing at the door. Of course the NG types like to insist he's a "Psychopath" (i.e. aware of what he's doing, antisocial personality), (and he could be), but schizophrenic or manic episodes, and a few other conditions, would have to be ruled out and we'd have to know a lot more about his behavior and history before we could come to the conclusion that he's sane, just psychopathic/antisocial personality. Of course with schizophrenia and mania it's pretty common for those to have their first onset when the person is in their early 20s. I would not be surprised to learn that he's experienced the onset of something like that.

Talking about the gestures he does with his hands like the interesting limp hand in the coffee video, standing there looking kind of dazed and helpless, not to mention the tapping or rapping on the door (could have been a staging kind of thing, pretending to be locked out, but then why not close the door first before doing it at least....and the tapping could have been something else, it looked weird and confused.).... in the Thailand video I thought I saw him do a strange involuntary-looking little hand flutter gesture at one point. I'm not sure, I would have to watch that again to have a closer look. I also noticed in videos when he talks he gestures mostly with his left hand, lots of movement and expression with his left hand while talking, you would think he's left-handed, but he appears to write with his right hand. Not important, just unusual little things, it's weird what catches your eye when you watch the videos. The hand flutter from the Thailand video, and the tapping on the door in this video made me wonder.

Speak of body language, I noticed that Stephany seemed to be almost stumbling slightly when she approached the table in the casino where he was sitting. I wondered what was making her kind of drag and almost stagger a bit like that, at first I thought, omg she was drugged or impaired somehow, but I guess she might have just been exhausted from being up all night

I too think there may be schizophrenia. It's like he has checked out and is somewhere totally different. There are two specific gestures that gave me really unpleasant feelings and chills. One was the limp wrist after his tap on the door (along with the facial expression) and the other was him turning (IMO, keys) in his right hand at the hotel desk while waiting to take possession of his room key (in his left hand)...also accompanied by his facial expression...the known smirk.

ETA: I think SF's walk is normal for her. I've seen other people with this waddle-like, gait that includes a shuffle of sorts.

 

[SleuthyGal]

they may like to repeat over and over in the tabloid press than JVDS (and any other defendant charged with a violent crime) is a psychopath and not insane, but we don't actually know what condition he has or doesn't have yet as far as I know, he could have actual mental illness that hasn't been diagnosed yet. According to DSM standard at least, various mental illnesses have to be ruled out before a diagnosis of Antisocial Personality can be made. What happened when he was 13? I haven't read about that yet

Having a mental illness (which could be anything from depression to, like you said, antisocial personality disorder) =/= "insane," which is a legal finding. Finding someone criminally insane means the person did not know what they were doing was a crime or wrong. JVDS absolutely knew that killing NH and then SFR was wrong. His behavior afterwards proves it.

JVDS is not "criminally insane." Yes he appears to have a personality disorder of some type (which is what psychopathy or sociopathy is part of), but "insane?" Not so much.

When he was 13 he beat his dog to death. That is often one of the telltale signs of someone who is going to grow up to be a murderer (possibly even a serial killer).

I don't think he appears to be calculating, or self-serving.

This guy is like the definition of calculating and self-serving! Have you read about the extortion attempt as just one example of possibly dozens of examples?

I'm surprised to see that folks think JVDS might just be a 'sick fella who doesn't know right from wrong or has some kind of mental illness." He's not Andrea Yates! Any attempt by JVDS to pretend to be insane will be laughed at.

 

[hollyblue]

Here's some info and a photo of Castro Castro prison:

http://www.destentor.nl/algemeen/binnenland/6796188/Joran-naar-Castro-Castrogevangenis.ece

Here's a thousand word translation of the link you provided:
LIMA (Reuters) - If Joran van der Sloot after one week from the police cell is released, he is at the Castro Castro prison in the Peruvian capital Lima on top, according to Peruvian media. In Castro Castro are the serious criminals, found guilty of rape and murder. The newspaper Correo (Post) described a few years ago how some rapists of minors in Castro Castro come to their end at the hands of fellow inmates. Psychologists explained the newspaper is how to explain: 'There is a pecking order in the world of serious criminals. Crimes against children and women who can not defend his cowardly. That must be punished.''De Castro Castro prison, is up on the outskirts of the city, in a slum, at a dusty dry mountain. Edgar taxi driver warns us do not walk around. 'If you are robbed, the police will look about twenty hours.''Pictures should not the dangers

The Castro Castro prison, is up to the edge of town, in a slum, at a dusty dry mountain. Edgar taxi driver warns us do not walk around. 'If you are robbed, the police come to twenty hours look.''Pictures should not the prison guards, only a little at the entrance where a couple handjesvol men and boys waiting to go inside. Sunday is visiting day for men. On Wednesday and Saturday, the female visit inside. Inside are four thousand prisoners. Those who have money, hire a private cell, those who do not have to sleep on the floor. Often have several men share a bed. Edgar taxi driver was convinced that Joran van der Sloot two sentences ahead: 'Those of justice and the street, that is to say of his fellow prisoners. 'He has a Peruvian girl murdered. They will pay for him.''

 

[KR2tonenow]

JVDS is not criminally insane. He knows right from wrong. If fact, he ran to Chile after the murder, which is consciousness of guilt (i.e. knowing he committed a murder and knowing it was wrong). Further, he attempted to disguise his appearance by lightening his hair, another indicator.

We've never going to know what exactly set him off. Why? Because he's never going to tell the truth! It could be anything...or nothing...he is known to have a hair trigger temper. He has no impulse control. He is also known to be a pathological liar--and likes making a game out of lying and then lying some more.

So all of this is interesting, but ultimately a fruitless exercise in guessing with no confirmation.

But: he will not get away with the crime, he is not insane, he knows right from wrong, he does display what is considered psychopathic tendencies, he is remorseless, he is a liar, and he will not ever change at his core. He is what he is. He was that way when he was 13 and he's the same today (just larger and even more dangerous).

He will do just fine in that Castro Castro prison--he's physically larger than everyone else, just as cunning, will get more cunning and cutthroat in the days ahead, will make his little deals on the side, and will probably have a few guards eating out of his hands eventually. Don't you (all) worry about poor little JVDS. He is not a lamb to the slaughter--he earned his way into that prison and will fit in quite well.

Well said, thanks!

 

[suzihawk]

Yes. He played under the name AANOTILTKK on party poker. You can go to sharkscope.com and look up his record. He was a losing player. Looks like he got lucky in a NL Texas Holdem Sunday Million Tournament and finished in the top 30 or so for a 12K payout.

He also played under the name of Joran888. Some have wondered if AANOTILTKK is an anagram. I'm not good with that sort of thing. Maybe some of our super sleuths can figure it out.

 

[KR2tonenow]

I couldn't agree with you more!

I think Peru has their ways~

 

[AbbieNormal]

He also played under the name of Joran888. Some have wondered if AANOTILTKK is an anagram. I'm not good with that sort of thing. Maybe some of our super sleuths can figure it out.

Who knows, it can be in any one of the 5 languages he speaks! jmo

abbie

 

[Dtronic]

He will do just fine in that Castro Castro prison--he's physically larger than everyone else, just as cunning, will get more cunning and cutthroat in the days ahead, will make his little deals on the side, and will probably have a few guards eating out of his hands eventually. Don't you (all) worry about poor little JVDS. He is not a lamb to the slaughter--he earned his way into that prison and will fit in quite well.

Disagree 100%

He is an outsider. His size will make him stick out and an easy target. Nothing is going to happen to him before the trial besides rough treatment/abuse. It would be an embarassment to the Peruvian Goverment and everyone (guards and inmates) at that prison knows it.

He will be kept in isolation until after the trial. When is is convicted (there is zero chance he won't be) and when he is NOT in isolation, he won't last a few weeks without serious injury or death.

 

[southernvagirl]

Yes, that too. She looked to be straightened out in the pic with the bedspread wrapped around her. So I wonder which is true? I tend to believe the hotel employee who found her. jmo

I am really trying to catch up reading,,,I saw the pics of the recreation, but it sounds like you guys are talking about another pic,,,does anyone have a link please,,,tia

 

[newone]

Yes. He played under the name AANOTILTKK on party poker. You can go to sharkscope.com and look up his record. He was a losing player. Looks like he got lucky in a NL Texas Holdem Sunday Million Tournament and finished in the top 30 or so for a 12K payout.

Thank you - I was unable to access this information - I got zero information.
If it was recent win (aka in May) - he's gone through a lot of money. I still believe he was looking for sugar momma

 

[Beyond Belief]

how in the world did i miss the recreation! Does anyone know where it is without knocking ourselves out looking for it?

 

[Kat]

JVDS is not criminally insane. He knows right from wrong. If fact, he ran to Chile after the murder, which is consciousness of guilt (i.e. knowing he committed a murder and knowing it was wrong). Further, he attempted to disguise his appearance by lightening his hair, another indicator.

We've never going to know what exactly set him off. Why? Because he's never going to tell the truth! It could be anything...or nothing...he is known to have a hair trigger temper. He has no impulse control. He is also known to be a pathological liar--and likes making a game out of lying and then lying some more.

So all of this is interesting, but ultimately a fruitless exercise in guessing with no confirmation.

But: he will not get away with the crime, he is not insane, he knows right from wrong, he does display what is considered psychopathic tendencies, he is remorseless, he is a liar, and he will not ever change at his core. He is what he is. He was that way when he was 13 and he's the same today (just larger and even more dangerous).

He will do just fine in that Castro Castro prison--he's physically larger than everyone else, just as cunning, will get more cunning and cutthroat in the days ahead, will make his little deals on the side, and will probably have a few guards eating out of his hands eventually. Don't you (all) worry about poor little JVDS. He is not a lamb to the slaughter--he earned his way into that prison and will fit in quite well.

Very good post Sleuthygal! I agree with everything you posted. There are varying degrees of sociopathy and JVDS is at the higher end of spectrum and may even have other personality disorder traits as well. IMHO a diagnosis (when he is diagnosed formally) doesn't mean that one PD is exclusive of another--meaning he could have several PD traits. (PD=Personality disorder).

I wanted to add if you don't mind a thought. We can't apply reason or rationale to a murdering sociopath's motives. Earlier I had posted a response to another poster who asked why would he do this? My response looked and read as if it were flippant but it wasn't. Again I will say, 1. Because he could might be the reason he murdered both girls. 2. Because he wanted to maybe. 3. Or he has an unknown trigger that is so pathological that it would make absolutely no sense to those of us that are reasoning rational people.

He may or may not have a good formal education--I don't know. He may or may not be of average or above average intelligence---I don't know. But one thing I do believe is that being he is more than likely a sociopath, pathological liar, among other things ---it probably never enters his mind that he is not more intelligent than anyone else and he would never believe that others would question his lies. He is more than likely supremely confident that he is smarter and superior to any other human being on the face of this earth. JMHO.

IMHO he sees himself entitled to whatever it is he wants. IMHO he sees everyone else in this world as objects that either provide him with what he wants or to be used to aquire what it is he wants, and if they aren't compliant then he either dismisses them or he might even murder them. They are objects. IMHO.

I'll say as I said before, IMHO he is one of the most pathologically disordered person I have seen in a very long time.

I agree, he will more than likely size up immediately what his environment is and he will manipulate it to his liking. He is more than likely very skilled at sizing up others too. He will thrive in that environment. IMHO even though is going to be housed prior to trial with dangerous criminals---JVDS is one of the most dangerous ones on that ward at this time. JMHO. He's not an innocent, he's one of the more dangerous men I've seen in a long time.

All of the above is just my humble opinion and thank you in advance for anyone that reads that really long post!

 

[burbqueen]

Maybe I'm reaching but what if the N stands for Natalie in the anagram? I dunno. I hope they find NH. However joran is trying to be smart.he wants out of peru.

 

[KR2tonenow]

Interesting point you raise about the flapping left hand. I noticed that too, and yet he seems to write with his right hand. Also in the coffee video, he uses his right hand only to clutch the coffee cups to his chest and does all the dexterity-requiring moves (doorknob finagling, possibly flipping the door key behind the pastry) with his left hand. I mean seriously, he was holding a pastry and pulling the doorknob closed, and IF he was holding a key on top of that and managing to hide it behind the pastry, that's pretty talented to do all that with your nondominant hand. :waitasec:

As far as a possible mental disorder, it would take a lot to convince me that JVDS has some sort of blackout rages that are conveniently impossible control and only happen when someone has something he wants or makes him angry. IMO he looks too smug in between times for me to believe that he doesn't remember/doesn't know that he is doing these things and can't control it.

Disorientated, yes. I think JVDS hand was sore due to the severe beating and neck breaking. (Based on several accounts that SF was beaten, however did anyone see any bruising on JVDS hands,,,I didn't?)There is a pause in the video with the hand and JVDS looks down. Quite telling actually.

 

[cat thief]

JVDS is not criminally insane. He knows right from wrong.snip...

He will do just fine in that Castro Castro prison--he's physically larger than everyone else, just as cunning, will get more cunning and cutthroat in the days ahead, will make his little deals on the side, and will probably have a few guards eating out of his hands eventually. Don't you (all) worry about poor little JVDS. He is not a lamb to the slaughter--he earned his way into that prison and will fit in quite well.

The mere fact that he is not criminally insane means he is toast.

Joran is in the big leagues now, no more young girls to charm, no more manipulating the system.

The devil runs the system where he is going and money doesn't spend in hell.... The devil deals in a different coin.


:grouphug: