Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #12

[Woe.be.gone]

All I know for sure is in a few minutes I am going off to dinner and an
evening looking at stars and planets... best to all here. Shalom.

sawadee ka.

 

[AbbieNormal]

Background information on examples that gambling addiction can lead to murder

http://www.ncfpc.org/PolicyPapers/Findings 0101-Gambling Add.pdf

His father (who has a line of credit at a casino in Aruba -- sign that it runs in the family?) allowed an underage JVDS to gamble
BOTTOM LINE - ACCORDING TO JOHN Q. KELLY

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' - April 11, 2006

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: ... And it’s sort of ironic that it’s his father who brought his underage son to a casino and left him there after he left, with access to his line of credit, to put this unfortunate chain of events in process.

You know, if Joran had never been there, not been allowed in there, because he’s underage and wasn’t accompanied by his father, the whole rest of the night wouldn’t have happened.

RITA COSBY, HOST: You know, and, John, also, why would that be a significant—why is that in conflict to something else we’ve heard maybe from Paulus before?

KELLY: Well, he’s just claiming that, you know, he’s kept an eye on his son, you know, he’s kept him on a short leash, and, you know, his son is very well-behaved. And it turns out that he’s, you know, got him at casinos. If you’re under 18, you’re not legally even allowed in casinos, so his son was breaking the law with him enabling it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12150698/

Apologies in advance if this is ''old'' to some of the more seasoned WS folks -- I am trying to back up what I feel IMHO is a driver to his chaotic motivation in the SF situation

From your link, above:


DSM-IV Criteria for
Pathological Gamblers
• Is preoccupied with gambling (e.g.,
preoccupied with reliving past
gambling experiences, handicapping
or planning the next venture, or
thinking of ways to get money with
which to gamble)
• Needs to gamble with increasing
amounts of money in order to
achieve the desired excitement
• Has repeated unsuccessful efforts to
control, cut back, or stop gambling
• Is restless or irritable when attempting
to cut down or stop gambling
• Gambles as a way of escaping from
problems or of relieving a dysphoric
mood (e.g., feelings of helplessness,
guilt, anxiety, depression)
• After losing money gambling, often
returns another day to get even
(“chasing” one’s losses)
• Lies to family members, therapist, or
others to conceal the extent of
involvement with gambling
• Has committed illegal acts such as
forgery, fraud, theft, or embezzlement
to finance gambling
• Has jeopardized or lost a significant
relationship, job, or educational or
career opportunity because of
gambling
• Relies on others to provide money to
relieve a desperate financial situation
caused by gambling
Source: American Psychological
Association Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IV)


Sure sounds like Joran in a few of those bullets, eh?


BTW the article was a very interesting read re: gambing addiction. Thanks.

abbie

 

[costalpilot]

I see it as fatalistic on Joran's part:

What did he say over and over in Lima: "I didnt want to do it!"

He knew he was a road to destruction.

some part of every person probably doesn't want to do a horrible thing.

when he's caught and talking to the police , he didn't want to do it.

but, so what.

she invaded HIS space. he had no choice.

 

[FLNY]

This video of the 'wine tossing incident' is pretty telling. Joran apparently admits that his anger was building up and he "couldn't control" himself. Note his expression as the interview ends, you can see it on his face!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZEM7ECohs[/ame]

I think that's his mother seated next to the interviewer when this occurs.


MOO

 

[kjt300]

I'm not talking conspiracy theory now. My analysis of this case is just as valid as yours, or anyone else's.

Facts- we have been told, so far, that: there was no murder weapon found (direct quote from the head of the police investigation); a baseball bat was found; a tennis racket was found; there were multiple stab wounds; there was a bloody mess everywhere, and the body was horribly mutilated, with Stephany's brother graphically describing her missing an eye; the body was found fully clothed, face down, wrapped in a bloody sheet; the body was found face up, clad only in a tee shirt and red panties; the neck was broken, but there was no blood other than a trickle from her nose and/or ear; she was actually strangled with Joran's own shirt.

No theory, no conspiracy in this post at all. But plenty of room for skepticism and doubt.

You are missing an important point. You see shifting and changing "facts" and "evidence." What you are really seeing is a "to the minute" newscycle throwing anything and everything they see and hear out there the minute they see or hear it.

It's not like it used to be. You hear on the news that someone was killed. You don't hear anything for awhile because it took awhile for reporters to get there. It took awhile to start the actual reporting. It took awhile to call the reporting in. It took awhile to get it printed or edited. There used to be a time gap that does not exist anymore.

Again, what you see as changing evidence is simply unfiltered reporting. It does not change the core information we have. You can have any opinion you want to, but you can't change the core facts.

And, with all due respect.......Maybe you are simply trying to force your opinion into an unlikely scenerio because to do otherwise provide a threat to your "book deal"?

MOO

 

[costalpilot]

You are missing an important point. You see shifting and changing "facts" and "evidence." What you are really seeing is a "to the minute" newscycle throwing anything and everything they see and hear out there the minute they see or hear it.

It's not like it used to be. You hear on the news that someone was killed. You don't hear anything for awhile because it took awhile for reporters to get there. It took awhile to start the actual reporting. It took awhile to call the reporting in. It took awhile to get it printed or edited. There used to be a time gap that does not exist anymore.

Again, what you see as changing evidence is simply unfiltered reporting. It does not change the core information we have. You can have any opinion you want to, but you can't change the core facts.

And, with all due respect.......Maybe you are simply trying to force your opinion into an unlikely scenerio because to do otherwise provide a threat to your "book deal"?

MOO

do you really think this person doesn't know what they are doing and how?

 

[Flow]

I'm not talking conspiracy theory now. My analysis of this case is just as valid as yours, or anyone else's.

Facts- we have been told, so far, that: there was no murder weapon found (direct quote from the head of the police investigation); a baseball bat was found; a tennis racket was found; there were multiple stab wounds; there was a bloody mess everywhere, and the body was horribly mutilated, with Stephany's brother graphically describing her missing an eye; the body was found fully clothed, face down, wrapped in a bloody sheet; the body was found face up, clad only in a tee shirt and red panties; the neck was broken, but there was no blood other than a trickle from her nose and/or ear; she was actually strangled with Joran's own shirt.

No theory, no conspiracy in this post at all. But plenty of room for skepticism and doubt.

Don't forget the single karate chop that broke her neck.

 

[Beatrice]

I hope & pray Joran talks soon, before an inmate kills him.

IMO Joran is ready to name names in Aruba.

 

[panthera]

Thanks to whoever posted the interviews with Stephany's father in the media thread. If you listen to the very last one, I think it clears up whether or not those NE photos are real. Her father says he did not want her going out of the hotel in a plastic bag. He had a coffin delivered and the police helped him. She was "carried out in a grave digger's drawer (coffin) like a human being should be".

Everytime I hear Stephany's father, or read his words, my heart just breaks for him. It's just unimaginable what he and all of her family are going through. I saw photos of her being taken from the hotel and also thought it seemed more dignified than a body bag. :cry: MOO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

This video of the 'wine tossing incident' is pretty telling. Joran apparently admits that his anger was building up and he "couldn't control" himself. Note his expression as the interview ends, you can see it on his face!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZEM7ECohs

I think that's his mother seated next to the interviewer when this occurs.


MOO

Yes, another woman says to his mother, "you did a good job raising this kid". Wow. It seems his parents just sort of stand there from what I can see. Strange.

If someone is falsely accused, I can understand how deeply frustrating that would be. If this were the case in NH's case, there would not be forever changing versions of how the evening unfolded, Joran would not have been rude to Natalee's parents, and on and on to May 2010 with the extortion plot and now the murder of Stephany.

 

[Flow]

You are missing an important point. You see shifting and changing "facts" and "evidence." What you are really seeing is a "to the minute" newscycle throwing anything and everything they see and hear out there the minute they see or hear it.

It's not like it used to be. You hear on the news that someone was killed. You don't hear anything for awhile because it took awhile for reporters to get there. It took awhile to start the actual reporting. It took awhile to call the reporting in. It took awhile to get it printed or edited. There used to be a time gap that does not exist anymore.

Again, what you see as changing evidence is simply unfiltered reporting. It does not change the core information we have. You can have any opinion you want to, but you can't change the core facts.

And, with all due respect.......Maybe you are simply trying to force your opinion into an unlikely scenerio because to do otherwise provide a threat to your "book deal"?

MOO

See the BOLD by me above.

What are the core facts? If we could just get some of these settled this might go much smoother IMO.

What is the cause of death?

What injuries did she sustain at the time of her death or immediately before her death?

How and when was her body found and by whom?

What is the actual timeline for Joran [the dates regarding the extortion plot, the dates and countries he was in prior to being taken into custody by Peruvian officials.]

Are there 2 missing women in Columbia from the dates he was there? Was he even there?

What is the timeline for Stephany?

Did she know Joran prior to them going to the room?

Did she know about the Natalee case before going to the room with him?

Whose room was it?

Etc, Etc, Etc.


I have read multiple versions of so many things since this story broke that I would appreciate some definitive answers to some of these simple questions. I agree much of it is the 24 hour newscycle and irresponsible reporting, but after several days and such intense coverage, I would expect some parts of the story to begin to gel.

JMO, MOO

 

[Unreals]

Great points, Flow.

 

[newone]

There are a number of surveillance tapes that 'could' show that JVDS and SF did meet in casino before ((where are they??) it has been indicated in several reports that they had socialized previously (aka gambled). Am guessing that the prosecutor team is gathering up as much as they can MOO and won't be released until the later presentation before the judge this week -- has anyone found links to videos other than previously released?

 

[Wings Of Light]

What is the cause of death?

Asphyxiation/Stragulation

What injuries did she sustain at the time of her death or immediately before her death?

See the police report, it's attached.

How and when was her body found and by whom?

Someone called the hotel seeking Joran. He didn't answer the call. This made a staff member realize he was late 2 days on paying. She went up to the room and knocked, but noone was there. She spoke with a staff member who told her later to go up to the room and enter with the key.

At around 12am on June 2nd, she opened the room with the key and went in to discover the body.

What is the actual timeline for Joran [the dates regarding the extortion plot, the dates and countries he was in prior to being taken into custody by Peruvian officials.]

See my sig.

Are there 2 missing women in Columbia from the dates he was there? Was he even there?

That story was a complete rumor.

The people on this site are very heavily relying on Peruvian blogs, that are very bad about reporting false information.

elcomercio.pe is the main offender. I don't think I've seen a single article from that site that didn't have blatant speculation and rumors printed as fact.

Despite this, people keep using them as a source and posting articles from them, so it just keeps misinforming people.

elcomercio.pe articles should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

What is the timeline for Stephany?

There isn't too much information out there. IMO, outside of the time between they met at the casino, and when she was killed, doesn't matter.

Did she know Joran prior to them going to the room?

Yes. They played poker together on more than one occasion. You can watch the casino footage for yourself.

Did she know about the Natalee case before going to the room with him?

No. At least there is no reason to believe she did.

Whose room was it?

Joran's. There was never any confusion about that.

I have read multiple versions of so many things since this story broke that I would appreciate some definitive answers to some of these simple questions. I agree much of it is the 24 hour newscycle and irresponsible reporting, but after several days and such intense coverage, I would expect some parts of the story to begin to gel.

 

[Cheewawa007]

Here's a fabulous link to all the transcripts from the talk shows since Natalee's disappearance I stumbled upon while trying to find the article regarding Joran being treated for anger management by a psychiatrist in Aruba (still trying to find it - good googley boogley... I googled his name & there are zillions of pages!!!)
http://nataleetimelinedetails.blogs...-max=2006-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=33

 

[Wings Of Light]

Great points, Flow.

Most of the misinformation is coming from elcomercio.pe and some other blogs. Also, newscasts, which have been extremely inaccurate.

If everyone limited themselves to credible sources like msnbc, abc, fox, (print articles only) etc... the amount of misinformation would drop to a minimum. Although I have seen some bad stuff from mainstream media, it's been a very small amount.

 

[ks1]

Also means 'No worries'. Sure seems like this doesn't apply any more. I wonder if they do tattoo removals at Castro Castro!!


MOO

Hope they chew them off!

 

[sassy_texasbelle2]

I think one thing that proves Joran is guilty of both is most of the people in world are not linked with one murder much less two in their lifetime much less 5 years apart. Is that just because he is unlucky?

 

[Flow]

These are only great points if you are completely ignorant to the facts.

Most of the misinformation is coming from elcomercio.pe and some other blogs. Also, newscasts, which have been extremely inaccurate.

If everyone limited themselves to credible sources like msnbc, abc, fox, (print articles only) etc... the amount of misinformation would drop to a minimum. Although I have seen some bad stuff from mainstream media, it's been a very small amount.

I am pretty sure that I have only watched MSNBC, Today Show, CNN, and HLN.

I am aware of the shortcomings of automated translations so I did not read any of the translated news articles.

Perhaps Jean Casares was reading and reporting the inaccuracies of elcomercio. It did not sound that way to me. I thought she was a native Spanish speaker and also reporting from Peru.

If the newscasts are inaccurate, what are we to rely upon?

I think the very question proves my earlier point.

 

[karma-girl]

Good evening sleuthers, just checking in...is he still alive in Castro Castro?:couch: