Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #12

[costalpilot]

It does not exist. It is Unreal. Dont you get that? Rest easy.
This is all hogwash.:angel:

well ya gotta hand it to whoever has created this "discussion" they have certainly captivated a lot of websleuthers.

 

[georger]

No one said that the prison doesn't suit him or that some organization can come and improve his plight. It is what it is.
I personally don't like to hear about conditions such as these...regardless of who is imprisoned there.

Maybe he will have a religious conversion .... but I dont want to go there
and I doubt that would alter any verdict. Keep in mind the Peruvian system allows for a ton of options (less time for alcholic or drug influence,
time off for time served, time off for good behavior, time off for impassioned crime, etc etc ect). Good grief lets at least add up five years
for this homicidal maniac as a start. I dont anticipate Aruba will ever confvict him of anything! Then its the American courts for extortion-fraud-wire fraud AFTER Peru. Then it could be some crime in Thailand
or even in Holland/Amsterdam reality to his dealings in the sex trades.
(Russia might get involved!). Peru is a good start to the rest of his life,
and his supprters also.

 

[JBean]

Look, everyone here is posting their opinions. In the Peru case, other than the video snippets (which can easily appear out of context, considering that the video runs constantly and we haven't seen any of that), all any of you are doing is speculating about WHY Joran killed Stephany. You take it for granted that he did kill her, without any hard evidence that he did so.

My points about the ever changing state of the crime scene evidence have been ignored. This is crucial stuff- position of body, murder weapon, wounds, etc. A few mistakes happen in every case, but they are invariably corrected pretty quickly. The ones in this case are still occuring (as of just a few days ago, when we suddenly learned that Joran actually strangled Stephany to death with his own shirt). A solid system of justice is based on understanding principles that we should all hold dear; certainly, emulating a system like Peru's would ensure less violent criminals on the streets. It would also ensure more innocent people in prison.

As for the Holloway case, there is no evidence to connect him to the death of Natalee. That's because there is no evidence that a crime was even committed. She disappeared without a trace, and nothing has been found of her since then. Of course, logic compels the supposition that something happened to her, but without a body, or any forensic evidence at all, Aruba could not convict Joran or anyone else of a crime it can't prove happened. Now, perhaps Peru could manage to do that.

My speculation is just the same as most of yours, just not as popular.

This is true and i said as much. I am taking issue with remarks about Beth and alluding to things that cannot be posted. No more no less.

 

[georger]

Good timing. My husband just walked through the room and he took a look at the Thai letters on Joran. He said, "That's mai pen rai in Thai guaranteed."

He studied Thai in language school as he was a student of SE Asia for the Army. We lived there two different time periods. I never learned to speak
Thai fluently let alone read Thai letters but my husband did learn a lot more than I did. He's sure that's what is written on Joran's chest.

How's that working for you now Joran?

small world - beautiful! :dance:

 

[AbbieNormal]

Good timing. My husband just walked through the room and he took a look at the Thai letters on Joran. He said, "That's mai pen rai in Thai guaranteed."

He studied Thai in language school as he was a student of SE Asia for the Army. We lived there two different time periods. I never learned to speak
Thai fluently let alone read Thai letters but my husband did learn a lot more than I did. He's sure that's what is written on Joran's chest.

How's that working for you now Joran?

Similar to Casey's Bella Vita.

Seems some murderers have no worries and intend to enjoy the good life.
Hmmm. Sounds good, in theory. Not working so well for the two of them.

jmo

abbie

 

[Cheewawa007]

Hi Mel. I was looking for thread number 5 and since I'm on my son's netbook with an itty bitty screen and even smaller keyboard to type on I can't seem to find it today.

We had poster that posted that she/he had remembered that rumor (JVDS having an incident that required him to have some sort of psych care) originated from JDVS' parents during an interview (I don't know if it was written or video interview) during the Holloway case.

I can't go back and find that but there's a clue right there if anyone wants to go back and comb through the past five years of interviews with his parents.

I would try to search but I can't until a few more weeks. If no one finds it I'll be happy to try to find it also once I get my new home set up.

BBM: I remember the psych visits also kat. I will try to search for it... it was in the early months of Natalee's disappearance... something along the lines a nurse or employee at the psychiatrist's office said he was a patient there, but could not/would not go into details as to why he was a patient & for how long he had been a patient.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

http://www.businessbackpacker.com/mai-pen-rai-a-lesson-on-letting-go/

A pretty good assessment of the word and how it is used. FWIW, the description that is used by this blogger can be applied almost word for word describes my impressions of the culture here in Hawaii. Lovely

Oh, did this make me laugh "finished". I had forgotten that term and how the "oh well" comes so easy. In reality the culture is more complicated than that though but can be very charming.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I'm not talking conspiracy theory now. My analysis of this case is just as valid as yours, or anyone else's.

Facts- we have been told, so far, that: there was no murder weapon found (direct quote from the head of the police investigation); a baseball bat was found; a tennis racket was found; there were multiple stab wounds; there was a bloody mess everywhere, and the body was horribly mutilated, with Stephany's brother graphically describing her missing an eye; the body was found fully clothed, face down, wrapped in a bloody sheet; the body was found face up, clad only in a tee shirt and red panties; the neck was broken, but there was no blood other than a trickle from her nose and/or ear; she was actually strangled with Joran's own shirt.

No theory, no conspiracy in this post at all. But plenty of room for skepticism and doubt.

The media coverage, unreals, is likely very different from the FACTS being gathered by LE in Peru. What seems to you and me to be changing descriptions of the body, the scene, etc., may just be bad reporting or people leaking information that is not correct.

We know that she went into the hotel room with Joran. We know that she was found in Joran's room, that he fled the scene, that he stole her car, etc. We know that LE in two countries went on a manhunt to bring him in. We know that LE says he confessed and that the evidence is overwhelming. Looks pretty overwhelming from here in Pittsburgh; I have no trouble imagining that LE looked at all the video before jumping to a conclusion about Joran being the killer. I have no trouble figuring out that no one else, other than the hotel staff, would have access to a key to that room, and that if I had to stake my life on whether Joran killed Stephany or some member of the hotel staff, I'd pick Joran. And the DNA is going to back that up. You are right that we don't yet have all the facts, but the facts when they get here are all going to verify what we already know.

And if he beat her and strangled her manually, there would be no "murder weapon" in Stephany's case, just Joran's hands.

As to your assertion on the post above that there is no murder in Natalee's case, you must be channeling Joran's father, who claimed all along "No body, no case." That doesn't mean there wasn't a murder, unless you subscribe to the notion that she ran away or got vaporized by aliens. Aruba is an island. Natalee was a teenage tourist, last seen by in the middle of the night by...JVDS. By morning, there was no sign of her. Even her mother acknowledges that she's dead, along with....Joran, who claims that his father disposed of the body, that he and a friend disposed of the body, that he knows where the body of Natalee Holloway is and can tell us for a cool quarter million. Even Joran says Natalee's dead, so let's not go backwards into Paulus (no body, no case) territory.

 

[suzihawk]

I'm not talking conspiracy theory now. My analysis of this case is just as valid as yours, or anyone else's.

Facts- we have been told, so far, that: there was no murder weapon found (direct quote from the head of the police investigation); a baseball bat was found; a tennis racket was found; there were multiple stab wounds; there was a bloody mess everywhere, and the body was horribly mutilated, with Stephany's brother graphically describing her missing an eye; the body was found fully clothed, face down, wrapped in a bloody sheet; the body was found face up, clad only in a tee shirt and red panties; the neck was broken, but there was no blood other than a trickle from her nose and/or ear; she was actually strangled with Joran's own shirt.

No theory, no conspiracy in this post at all. But plenty of room for skepticism and doubt.

I gotta admire your tenacity.

I already gave you my thoughts regarding the above and got no rebuttal.

There's a language/translation issue.

A lot of the initial information regarding the body and murder scene came from the father (who was under extreme duress), who had gotten it second hand from his son who went to the morgue to identify his sister. The body was 3+ days decomposed, which could account for the grotesque appearance.

Then there's the language/translation issue.

They weren't sure just what the murder weapon was at that point. (I personally think the weapon was his elbow,hands and feet.) There was a tennis racquet in the room, which I believe was translated into a bat, thus the baseball bat evolved.

Then there's the language/translation issue.

I believe the facts have come out in dribs and drabs while the reports are fast and furious, leading to a lot of mis-reporting.

Then there's the language/translation issue.

 

[newone]

Background information on examples that gambling addiction can lead to murder

http://www.ncfpc.org/PolicyPapers/Findings 0101-Gambling Add.pdf

His father (who has a line of credit at a casino in Aruba -- sign that it runs in the family?) allowed an underage JVDS to gamble
BOTTOM LINE - ACCORDING TO JOHN Q. KELLY

'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' - April 11, 2006

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: ... And it’s sort of ironic that it’s his father who brought his underage son to a casino and left him there after he left, with access to his line of credit, to put this unfortunate chain of events in process.

You know, if Joran had never been there, not been allowed in there, because he’s underage and wasn’t accompanied by his father, the whole rest of the night wouldn’t have happened.

RITA COSBY, HOST: You know, and, John, also, why would that be a significant—why is that in conflict to something else we’ve heard maybe from Paulus before?

KELLY: Well, he’s just claiming that, you know, he’s kept an eye on his son, you know, he’s kept him on a short leash, and, you know, his son is very well-behaved. And it turns out that he’s, you know, got him at casinos. If you’re under 18, you’re not legally even allowed in casinos, so his son was breaking the law with him enabling it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12150698/

Apologies in advance if this is ''old'' to some of the more seasoned WS folks -- I am trying to back up what I feel IMHO is a driver to his chaotic motivation in the SF situation

 

[Woe.be.gone]

small world - beautiful! :dance:

Suay = beautiful in Thai. Do you think our paths have crossed?

 

[georger]

Similar to Casey's Bella Vita.

Seems some murderers have no worries and intend to enjoy the good life.
Hmmm. Sounds good, in theory. Not working so well for the two of them.

jmo

abbie

I see it as fatalistic on Joran's part:

What did he say over and over in Lima: "I didnt want to do it!"

He knew he was a road to destruction.

 

[FIND'HER]

^^^SET UP^^^
Ok This may a little far fetched. But could this be true. Joran had so much pull with the Aruba Goverment that he walked after killing Natalee. Could the same be true in Peru.
***He contacts B. Halloway tells her to tranfer money is she wants to know where Nat/ body is.
*** Figures B. Hollaway will get him on extoration. So he comes up with a plan with (Possibly others involved before there is a money tranfer). So he will not be extradicted back to the US to face charges.
***He kills Stephany cause he knows he will not get the death Penelaty in Peru and possibly be convicted 30 years. Then he is not extradicted on Money extoration. So basically he walks free for the next 30 years.

 

[twirlygirl]

Look, everyone here is posting their opinions. In the Peru case, other than the video snippets (which can easily appear out of context, considering that the video runs constantly and we haven't seen any of that), all any of you are doing is speculating about WHY Joran killed Stephany. You take it for granted that he did kill her, without any hard evidence that he did so.

My points about the ever changing state of the crime scene evidence have been ignored. This is crucial stuff- position of body, murder weapon, wounds, etc. A few mistakes happen in every case, but they are invariably corrected pretty quickly. The ones in this case are still occuring (as of just a few days ago, when we suddenly learned that Joran actually strangled Stephany to death with his own shirt). A solid system of justice is based on understanding principles that we should all hold dear; certainly, emulating a system like Peru's would ensure less violent criminals on the streets. It would also ensure more innocent people in prison.

As for the Holloway case, there is no evidence to connect him to the death of Natalee. That's because there is no evidence that a crime was even committed. She disappeared without a trace, and nothing has been found of her since then. Of course, logic compels the supposition that something happened to her, but without a body, or any forensic evidence at all, Aruba could not convict Joran or anyone else of a crime it can't prove happened. Now, perhaps Peru could manage to do that.

My speculation is just the same as most of yours, just not as popular.

Facts or non facts will always change in a case such as this. Even rumor and innuendo plays a role in most cases.

The reason I like my fellow websleuthers is the fact that not everything is engraved in stone. Once one fact or report is made and is either proven to be inaccurate, false or even non truthful. Many will try to find the facts in their place and it is updated with what may have seemed to be correct at first reporting and is marked or noted as discounted.

Even the investigators at first look might perceive something first and at second glance change their first initial conclusions as more forensic evidence rears it's ugly head and the science suggests another element it doesn't make the case a conspiracy. It makes the case forever evolving due to a multitude of evidence and character involvement.

Evidence at first glance should never be taken AS LAW cause not only does that show ignorance it shows lack of investigation to getting to the truth of said case.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

OT but speaking of Thailand, I just heard a Tsunami warning has been canceled. That's good news.

 

[FLNY]

Heyya FLNY.


http://www.etriptips.com/wiki/Thai_phrasebook

Thai phrase book:

That’s all right ไม่เป็นไร (mâi pen-rai)


tatoo:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=9590&d=1276379979

Also means 'No worries'. Sure seems like this doesn't apply any more. I wonder if they do tattoo removals at Castro Castro!!


MOO

 

[georger]

Background information on examples that gambling addiction can lead to murder

http://www.ncfpc.org/PolicyPapers/Findings 0101-Gambling Add.pdf

The gambling is merely a sympton of something deepseated, imho.

Again I go back to his RAGE and ANGER documented and spoken of by
people who knew him as the child.

His tatoo lines up with that - a fatalism looking for an outcome, and
has found it in Peru. Its too bad anyone had to pay the price of this.

If Unreal wants to find ghosts in a closet let to look at Joran's past
where nobody current is involved, no Natalie, no Beth, no Stephany,
no one else but his family and immediate cliche.

There is the seed of this all.

 

[georger]

Suay = beautiful in Thai. Do you think our paths have crossed?

All I know for sure is in a few minutes I am going off to dinner and an
evening looking at stars and planets... best to all here. Shalom.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Similar to Casey's Bella Vita.

Seems some murderers have no worries and intend to enjoy the good life.
Hmmm. Sounds good, in theory. Not working so well for the two of them.

jmo

abbie

This is an interesting coincidence indeed.

 

[georger]

^^^SET UP^^^
Ok This may a little far fetched. But could this be true. Joran had so much pull with the Aruba Goverment that he walked after killing Natalee. Could the same be true in Peru.
***He contacts B. Halloway tells her to tranfer money is she wants to know where Nat/ body is.
*** Figures B. Hollaway will get him on extoration. So he comes up with a plan with (Possibly others involved before there is a money tranfer). So he will not be extradicted back to the US to face charges.
***He kills Stephany cause he knows he will not get the death Penelaty in Peru and possibly be convicted 30 years. Then he is not extradicted on Money extoration. So basically he walks free for the next 30 years.

who knows if this guy can even think that far ... somehow I doubt it.
Its too bad there isnt a very neutral clinical psychiatrist in this (who
avoids Nancy Grace program like the plague) and makes some sense
in all of this .... maybe such a person will surface before the end.
But wait! Maybe the psychiatrist who saw him in Aruba knows a lot?
(if there was such a person as alleged).