Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #18

[MCDRAW]

Again, this is only my speculation, and I certainly can't find concrete evidence for it, but....I suspect that the reason for this long delay is because there actually wasn't such a delay. In other words, Stephany died long after Joran left the hotel, which left those responsible scrambling to find a reason for why so much time elapsed before the room was checked.

The most logical guess I can make is that Stephany was supposed to be involved in the "sting" or trap, or whatever it was that had been planned for Joran. She felt remorse, gave him a head's up, after which he left and it took a few days until her betrayal was discovered. That's why the uncut video from that security camera would be crucial evidence, to determine exactly what activity, if any, occurred in Joran's room after he left. Of course, any entrance or exit from his room necessarily proves him innocent.

Btw, there is a better translation out there (sorry, no link- it's from a site WS doesn't want linked to) of the Dutch article from yesterday, regarding the security camera. It is now clear that these reporters claim to have actually visited the hotel, and maintain that there was no camera outside room 309 prior to Joran being there, and it has been removed since the murder. Now, it may be that the authorities confiscated the camera for their investigation. However, if these reporters have some kind of evidence (testimony of long time hotel staff, perhaps?) that a camera was only installed at this spot after Joran rented that room, then I think it's pretty clear evidence that he was being monitored by somebody, for some purpose.

You know I believe in certain conspriacies myself. I just can't get on board with yours at this time or maybe ever. I can't figure out why someone would want to pick on a 17 year old boy. I can't figure out why that same someone would then follow him to another Country and stage a murder so they could finally get him. But the biggest thing is that Joran has done nothing but act guilty for the last five years. I know you have said this is because he is a liar. My brother is a drug addict and lies all the time. But he would never admit to killing somone if he didn't kill them. I guess that is the biggest reason that I can not get on board with your conspiracy theory concerning Joran. I just can not see an innocent person lying about killing someone continually for the last five years. It might help if you actually gave reasons for your theory and not just through out questions. I like to hear other views because it helps me see things I have missed. But so far I can't get past Joran confessing to kill Natalee even if it was for money.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I am thinking that picture 15, might be the blood in the hallway.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10003848-15.html?tag=page;previous

I agree, i.b.nora. And I'm also seeing Stephany's hair tie. Anyone else see that? Would indicated that Joran's confession about her trying to leave could actually be believable, imo.

Could be the hallway or could it be a picture taken after Stephany's body was removed to show the pool of blood that was left behind?

BBM hair tie - I looked and looked at what I thought was a heart (from another case!) and for the life of me, I couldn't come up with an idea of what that might be.
An elastic type hair tie - I bet you're right. Good eye and good thinking.

 

[cat thief]

Boy did I laugh at that one......howling infact....

I already got a slap down:slap: for being sarcastic and I'm trying to be nice and figure out how this frame-up could have went down.

 

[marikesh]

Again, this is only my speculation, and I certainly can't find concrete evidence for it, but....I suspect that the reason for this long delay is because there actually wasn't such a delay. In other words, Stephany died long after Joran left the hotel, which left those responsible scrambling to find a reason for why so much time elapsed before the room was checked.

The most logical guess I can make is that Stephany was supposed to be involved in the "sting" or trap, or whatever it was that had been planned for Joran. She felt remorse, gave him a head's up, after which he left and it took a few days until her betrayal was discovered. That's why the uncut video from that security camera would be crucial evidence, to determine exactly what activity, if any, occurred in Joran's room after he left. Of course, any entrance or exit from his room necessarily proves him innocent.

Btw, there is a better translation out there (sorry, no link- it's from a site WS doesn't want linked to) of the Dutch article from yesterday, regarding the security camera. It is now clear that these reporters claim to have actually visited the hotel, and maintain that there was no camera outside room 309 prior to Joran being there, and it has been removed since the murder. Now, it may be that the authorities confiscated the camera for their investigation. However, if these reporters have some kind of evidence (testimony of long time hotel staff, perhaps?) that a camera was only installed at this spot after Joran rented that room, then I think it's pretty clear evidence that he was being monitored by somebody, for some purpose.

Every post you do make sure you say, my speculation, my theory and I say that protesteth too much. This is the same thing that happened with NH case. It's time to realize that Peru didn't give 10 days to hide evidence. The conspiracy theory PR won't work. Where did van den Heuval get his info? I doubt police would offer that, however he did spend time with Joran and Anita. I find it quite telling that neither Joran, nor Anita don't seem to feel remorse for the battering of Stepheny.

As to your first paragraph, : that doesn't explain Stepheny's blood on Joran's clothes. Evidence is rock solid.

Second paragraph. You should know that FBI only use their own for stings.

There never was a camera over Joran's door, it was the end of the hallway. The original would have been removed for the eventual trials where they would be able to show the camera was well functioning, and would have been replaced by another. There is a recent picture showing the camera is still at the end of the hallway.

 

[Sanny]

So she gave him a "heads up" and then decided to lay around his room for a few days until the people that hired her found her in his room, became angry with her and then killed her for letting him get away.

Maybe it was those 2 guys that Joran said he found in his room one on the bed with a gun.......who killed her......LOL.......and Stephany involved in a sting or trap giving Joran a head's up ....... for what????

 

[Unreals]

I totally agree with you. except when you ask a question regarding their theory in good consciousness and they refuse to discuss it further.....to me it is moot. Why try to discuss anything someone does not wish to discuss. Sounds a little :banghead: to me...and we have enough of that already here. Urneals has every right to further the discussion on the matter if he/she chooses, but I also have the right to my opinion and as you say--read it and move on, which I now plan to do.
And your absolutely correct....everything does not have to be fact when putting a theory together, but to substantiate, yes.

I've answered every question posed to me, as best I can. Much of what I believe has to be conjecture (for instance, I have no access to the uncut video tapes). I'm merely analyzing the evidence, like all of you. In my assessment, the "evidence" against Joran is full of holes.

Imho, we have a lot of reasonable doubt here.

 

[Sanny]

I already got a slap down:slap: for being sarcastic and I'm trying to be nice and figure out how this frame-up could have went down.

Cat, I'm with you......I'm scratchin my head and getting no where fast.

 

[MCDRAW]

Cat, I'm with you......I'm scratchin my head and getting no where fast.

Me too.

 

[hollyblue]

The bolding, I believe you have answered that yourself before, due to the various media. Especially Nancy Grace running with any little rumor. Plus translating from Spanish to English. Not unusual if one looks at all the other missing and murdered cases.
As far as the body not being found for 3 days: Low maintenance on cheap living space; the less you have cleaning staff come in, the less you pay. Plus as someone mentioned, as Joran left the place quite composed I might add, he told hotel staff to not disturb "his girl".

I don't recall seeing a phone in his room either, but he could have called the front desk also. I think there will be many more inconsistancies within the coming months in this case..the rumor mill is very active right now and speculations are thriving. I take each "report" with a little grain of salt and crititcal logic. JMO

 

[Unreals]

You know I believe in certain conspriacies myself. I just can't get on board with yours at this time or maybe ever. I can't figure out why someone would want to pick on a 17 year old boy. I can't figure out why that same someone would then follow him to another Country and stage a murder so they could finally get him. But the biggest thing is that Joran has done nothing but act guilty for the last five years. I know you have said this is because he is a liar. My brother is a drug addict and lies all the time. But he would never admit to killing somone if he didn't kill them. I guess that is the biggest reason that I can not get on board with your conspiracy theory concerning Joran. I just can not see an innocent person lying about killing someone continually for the last five years. It might help if you actually gave reasons for your theory and not just through out questions. I like to hear other views because it helps me see things I have missed. But so far I can't get past Joran confessing to kill Natalee even if it was for money.

This isn't the Natalee forum, so we shouldn't delve too deeply into that case here. However, I certainly don't think that powerful forces are in the habit of just arbitrarily picking on random 17 year olds. Obviously, if Joran was set up in Peru, it was because of his connection to the Holloway case. I think there are people who are heavily vested in demonizing this kid for Natalee's disappearance, and will not rest until he is punished for it.

I don't pretend to understand anything about Joran. I will say that, despite his habitual lies, he has never confessed to killing Natalee. The stories he told involved him getting rid of her body when she died accidentally, selling her into slavery, and her falling off a balcony. As for confessing to killing Stephany, clearly I don't believe Joran ever willingly did that, as he is now claiming himself. I am just as certain that he never "confessed" anything to the Peruvians about Natalee Holloway, either.

Again, I don't have all the answers. All I can do is analyze the evidence. I have strong doubts about everything that has come from the Peruvian authorities so far. The ultimate answer to why Joran was framed for this murder will probably only come if those responsible for framing him are ever exposed. That isn't likely to happen, at least not through the efforts of American journalists.

 

[Sanny]

No reasonable doubt where JVDS is concerned.......as far as evidence 'holes' against Joran are concerned.......each and every 'hole' will be filled in by that 3 Judge Panel. T

The evidence will speak for itself and for Stephany too.

 

[Unreals]

Cat, I'm with you......I'm scratchin my head and getting no where fast.

Guys, I don't want anybody scratching or banging their head. I've given you my speculation as to how this potential conspiracy may have worked. That's really all I can do, without being a conspirator myself.

Again, all I'm doing is looking at the evidence and questioning it.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

So she gave him a "heads up" and then decided to lay around his room for a few days until the people that hired her found her in his room, became angry with her and then killed her for letting him get away.

OOOH yes.....and then sped up the rate of decomposition in order to make it appear as if she had died days earlier.......CLEVER. :banghead:

 

[cat thief]

OOOH yes.....and then sped up the rate of decomposition in order to make it appear as if she had died days earlier.......CLEVER. :banghead:

Nice.

I forgot about that part.

Can I have a short recess and get back to you on that one? :bedtime:

 

[nums24]

I've answered every question posed to me, as best I can. Much of what I believe has to be conjecture (for instance, I have no access to the uncut video tapes). I'm merely analyzing the evidence, like all of you. In my assessment, the "evidence" against Joran is full of holes.

Imho, we have a lot of reasonable doubt here.

I don't believe reasonable doubt is required in Peru:

http://www.cejamericas.org/reporte/...pais=PERU&tipreport=REPORTE3&seccion=PPENAL07

 

[Sanny]

I see no conspiracy, sting, or trap whatsoever.

IMO that's all hog doodie.
We have all looked and studied all the evidence photos extremely careful and questions come arise and we try to answer them also.

However, when all is said and done, DNA and forensics will be what brings the gavel down on Joran.
There will be absolutely imo no way of him wiggling out of this horrendous murder of a beautiful young girl.

 

[Cottages]

Too many "coincidences." The wildly varying accounts of the basic details of the crime scene; murder weapon, cause of death, position of body, clothing on body. Most important of all- that incomprehensible three day gap between time of death and discovery of Stephany's body.

Conspiracy theories, by their very nature, will always seem illogical. Since most of us have never conspired in this manner, we can't begin to really understand the motivations behind them. All we can do is analyze the evidence, which is what I'm doing.

"Coincidence" is an inappropriate term for media, hotel or LE underling speculation prior to the release of forensic evidence. It wasn't forensics changing the story. And even if it was forensics changing their opinion, the idea that changing "evidence" (speculation) is proof of a conspiracy is a non-sequitur. One does not evince the other.

Last year I spent a week at a Port A mega condo complex on the beach that had maid service. I asked not to have maid service and it was honored. No mystery at all, not to mention the hotel reviews that say this is common at that hotel without asking. Not all countries have the same hotel service Americans do, and even when they do, you can waive the services.

Nor does lack of hotel service evince a conspiracy. It's just lack of service or bad service, or bad business, but none of these point to a conspiracy. It's like saying that because the air conditioner in the hotel wasn't working, the murder was obviously a conspiracy.

That is, it may have been a conspiracy, but so far, nothing presented points to a conspiracy. It just points to human error, cultural differences or bad customer service. In fact, there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary, not the least of which is JVS's recent implications that it was a conspiracy. If JVS says something, that alone is extremely strong evidence against the proposition in and of itself.

Also, it's a very presumptuous statement to say that most people think conspiracies are illogical. Every parent becomes a master conspirator while raising kids, starting with the Tooth Fairy & Santa. It's not that we cannot "think outside the box" as you believe you can, it's just that there's no evidence inside or outside the box that points to conspiracy. And "no evidence" of a conspiracy does not point to a conspiracy either ;-).

 

[LinasK]

I saw that too and recalled when a stranger fell and broke her ankle -- the lady I saw (a healthy 30's or 40's fit lady) went absolutely shocky. We stayed with her til paramedics arrived. I have to tell you the woman was in agony. I am thinking SF would have had to scream when that happened (maybe that's when JVDS stiffled her fataly). MOO

Actually, I broke my ankle in my 40's- 31/2 years ago. The pain from the break was only momentary, then the pain got excruciating from the swelling. It happened while I was ice skating. I knew something unnatural had happened (I knew I couldn't stand and skate off the ice), but not that it was broken until I got the x-ray. The only screaming I did was to yell for people to get my skate off.
It was a major break, in two places. I didn't go into shock.

 

[marikesh]

The interview with Greta was in 2008, IIRC. Paulus died in February of this year. That's two years, not two months. I'm sure AVDS and PVDS were not happy about it. However, I saw no evidence that they withdrew their support because of it.

The close friendship between Van de Straaten (Chief of Police) and Van der Sloot was well known and well documented and never denied by either one of them, as far as I know.

In the article with Anita just today, she says:

"Joran was once a nice guy. He was two when my husband Paul to Aruba and got a job as a judge on the island we went live." :waitasec:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rssonline.nl%2Frel_5389724_joran-bekende-alleen-om-uitlevering.aspx&sl=nl&tl=en

Actually, it was my understanding that he was a "judge in training", which he never received the full judgeship (as you pointed out above). Reasons were never disclosed, which I find curious.

I could get into all the reasons I believe the authorites were/are corrupt and the reasons anything related to the investigation was delayed, stalled and covered up in this case, but it will take much longer than I'm able to do this evening. To make it short and sweet for now, I'll just say it had everything to do with nepotism and tourism.

Bolding by me and apologies for reading from the end to the beginning.
There was a reason given for Paulus not receiving the Judgeship and that simply was that he was unable to pass the exam. By the time he wrote his exam, his world was already turned upside down, however this last sentence is only my speculation and I wouldn't doubt he had alot on his mind.

 

[georger]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Exactly. Natalee's "story" was his money maker...now it's his lifeline....as seen in his eyes. IMO.

I am beginning to see van der Sloot as a loner and complete fraud who
may not know what happened to Natalie! But he would use it as long as
he could because in reality he has nothing else. I think 99.9% of everything that comes out of his head is a lie and worse. He is a very disturbed fellow who has been WITHOUT ANY TANGIBLE SUPPORT for years. He's bad at poker. (Would you pay to get advice from him about
gambling?) I cant see friends or criminals supporting him in any way who would expect an actual return-in-kind. Sure has had lots of transient friends but so do fish in the sea. Its amazing to me he chose "my private life" as his trigger for killing Stephanie .... he has no private life, he has no LIFE! He's a joke. He just happens to be big and could kill or maime you
if you are half his size .... that's his one claim to fame. He's a monster.
And he knows 'he's full of s____.'

I think his father and his father's buddies disposed of Natalie and nobody
told him where or how - they knew Joran was incapable of dealing with
anything. His psychological evaluation says he has only an average IQ
with 'hints' of anything better but unsustainable due to his emotional
overlay.

That's Joran.