LookingUp
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I marvel at your intuitiveness and "need to know" attitude FLNY! Great sleuthing!:clap:
GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #22
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I marvel at your intuitiveness and "need to know" attitude FLNY! Great sleuthing!:clap:
FLNY
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Thanks so much, LookingUp! I'm totally new to all this and have become intrigued by this case, especially with all the contradictions / translation issues.
It's like working on a huge jigsaw puzzle, trying to get everything to fit into place, which makes the sleuthing that much more of a challenge! :croc:
Plus I'm learning so many sleathing techniques from all the wonderful, dedicated WS'ers!! Thanks to all!
pittsburghgirl
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Regarding Joran's bizarre behavior while on the run: He was in a foreign country and sort of stands out based on his size and ethnicity. He didn't know the terrain and had no family, friends, allies or co-conspirators. There were cameras outside his hotel room and he coukd not remove Stephany's body. And he murdered a girl whose parents were in country and influential, so he had to know the hunt would be on.
if he had money on him from any source, he also had to figure he would need to spend carefully because there was no guarantee he could get more, especially once Stephany's death hit the news.
I have always figured that he gambled away and bought drugs and "stuff" with most or all of the extortion money. He's a gambling addict and may have other expensive addictive needs. And even "inexpensive" hotels cost more than ordinary apartment living, what with the need to eat out, travel by cab, etc.
if he had money on him from any source, he also had to figure he would need to spend carefully because there was no guarantee he could get more, especially once Stephany's death hit the news.
I have always figured that he gambled away and bought drugs and "stuff" with most or all of the extortion money. He's a gambling addict and may have other expensive addictive needs. And even "inexpensive" hotels cost more than ordinary apartment living, what with the need to eat out, travel by cab, etc.
FLNY
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Thanks so much, hollyblue, for putting this map together! Until I had looked up all these towns myself, I hadn't realized that Joran had moved some 1500 mi. from Lima! He certainly knows his way around....and, what do you know, he finds another gambling town!!!
I realize that there are conflicting reports on whether he was heading to or from Santiago when he was captured, probably one of those 'lost in translation' items! :waitasec: I suppose it really doesn't matter much, but I've kind of chosen 'to' Santiago as per my previous post, since there's an LE report of him having spent the previous night in Vina del Mar:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5404664&postcount=163"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Joran Van der Sloot Confesses to Murdering Stephany Flores Ramirez #16[/ame]
You may also want to include on your map the town where he was apprehended. It's about half way between Vina del Mar and Santiago.
"the young foreigner was arrested at the height of Curacaví"
http://translate.google.com/transla.../detalle/detallenoticias.asp?idnoticia=416897
It would be great if you could add the map to the media thread, so we don't lose track of it!! Thanks for the visual....it helps a lot!! :dance: :dance:
FLNY
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This is the only reference I've found re: contact of taxi drivers:
"We gave testimony Dirincri agents who came to Ica."
http://translate.google.com/transla...van-der-sloot-no-tienen-como-pagar-su-defensa
Again, I would imagine LE tracked them down from the border control records of them having entered Chile and returned to Peru on May 31.
ADDED: I think also that one of the reasons that they were arrested is that they knew who Joran was, after the fact, and didn't report their involvement to LE. The link says something about them hearing news on the radio. I don't believe for a minute that Joran told them he murdered someone! But then again maybe he did, in explaining why he had to get out of Peru....that's when they gouged him for more goodies to take him over the border!! Just more confusion!!
MOO
LookingUp
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Forgive me if this has been discussed before but I'm not clear on whether or not Joran knew of Stephany's family clout, connections and influence in Peru prior to her murder? He knows now of course, but I wonder if he knew then? And if so, how could he be so arrogant/dilusional to think he could get away with murdering a member of such a high profile family?!?
FLNY
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Hollyblue, I just looked again at your map link and now it's only showing Santiago and Uruguay. But then I realized that I had originally saved it, so here's a link to the original if you have lost it:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...923443382065042.0004882005e7f7aeaf6f1&t=h&z=4
pittsburghgirl
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I haven't seen any media articles that discuss this point, but I don't follow a lot of the reporting done in other languages because the internet translations make me crazy. So a more informed poster might have better information.
But Joran's experience with the Natalee Holloway disappearance provided a prolonged, emphatic lesson in the dangers of leaving a body to be discovered (his father's assertion "no body, no case" certainly applied in that case but would work against him in Peru.) Thus the delusional and arrogant moment came when he killed someone in his hotel room with no way to dispose of a body, regardless of the victim's family status.(Of course, killing anyone is arrogance, by definition, but I am thinking about a more conscious
arrogance.).
Joran also should have known that he was at a disadvantage because he was out of Aruba, where he was protected by family connections. I'm certain that he intended to take some kind of advantage of Stephany, even just to rob her. he may not have consciously decided to murder her prior to getting to the hotel. But at some point, he "decided" that the impulse to kill (or steal or rape) was more powerful or important than the likely consequence of getting caught. There really isn't any way for normal folk to "get" how people like Joran think because they are operating without impulse control, conscience or empathy.
Kamille
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Don't forget the fact that he claims to have taken a flight from Antofagasta to Santiago on the 1st. He says he arrived in Santiago at 14:00hrs. Perhaps he was heading back to Santiago to catch a flight somewhere when he noticed himself in the paper, or maybe that was when he decided he'd better get to the Dutch embassy.
He also talks about spending time in a place called Vasco da Gama. I don't believe this is actually a city or town, it's the name of a Portugese explorer and while things may be named after him, I wonder if it's actually Vin De Mar that he's talking about in his confession.
I spent the night in a hotel in Arica , I do not remember the name . A day later, on June 1st , I'm in town all day and I stayed at night caught a bus to Antofagasta . Since I took a plane to Santiago , where I arrived at 14h00 . I went to a place called Vasco de Gama , where I took a shower in a hotel . I dropped my gear and took a taxi to Santiago .
He had to have taken a plane from Antofagasta to Santiago in order for him to have gotten there so quickly. I wonder why he didn't just take the flight back to Aruba? :waitasec:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/6944033/__Verklaring_Joran_van_der_Sloot__.html?p=30,2
Kamille
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I believe I read very early on that he did indicate to the Chilean LE that he knew that Stephany was from a wealthy family and that she was a lesbian.
MOO
Hi, PittsburghGirl, always nice to see you moniker. I haven't heard anything that indicates that Joran's relatively short stay would have taught him much about Stephany's family's prominence. I followed the Holloway closely, but I honestly have seen no evidence that the family's supposed connections really helped him at all: He was incarcerated twice, interrogated for weeks at a time, and his apartment and family property were searched several times. His father's supposed influence could not even secure him the judgeship he dearly wanted. The absence of a successful prosecution was, as you suggest, because of the absence of a body and evidence of a crime.
I do hope that the tragic disappearance of the young Thai women is investigated further.
Kamille
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Yes I think they were arrested because they did not come forward with information when it became known that the police were looking for Joran. I also noticed that he gave the full name of one of the taxi drivers (four names in total) in his confession. How could he have remembered all four of that man's names? I found that rather strange. I guess he had it written down on a piece of paper because he was going to send him the extra $500 via Western Union...well according to his confession anyway.
So once Joran identified at least one of them in his confession, they were probably arrested for not having come forward with the information of how they had driven him all over Peru and over the border into Chile.
MOO
suzihawk
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Hi Chanler... It's my understanding that the Vandersloot property was never searched - even to this day.
While it's true that Paulus never did receive his judgeship, it's my opinion that he did have many connections within the judicial community due to his professional as lawyer and his standing in the community. Which provided him, at the very least, with inside information as to what was happening with the investigation . And, of course, there was his long time relationshipship with Jan Van der Straaten, the head of the investigation at the time, as well as others that he worked and socialized with.
How do you account for the two security guards that were arrested and held for ten days even though it was known (via security tape) that Natalee was never dropped off at the hotel as Joran said?
Anita narrated that he told her that in our country it was already known about his background as a suspect in the murder of Holloway which is why he would escape to Chile to seek shelter at the Netherland's embassy.
Earlier, someone wondered why he was going from Vina del Mar to Santiago - that it seemed he was going the wrong direction. But, he was just trying to get to the capital - where the Dutch Embassy would be.
Earlier, someone wondered why he was going from Vina del Mar to Santiago - that it seemed he was going the wrong direction. But, he was just trying to get to the capital - where the Dutch Embassy would be.
asiabrasil
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Apparently it is credible. CBS is on it...
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20010834-504083.html
"A source for CBS News spoke to Peru's Minister of Justice who confirmed that Thailand was pursuing criminal charges against van der Sloot."
Hi, SuziHawk. The Van Der Sloot property, like their house, was searched. Twenty police participated and the proceedings from videotaped from the air.
Much of the cable news conspiracy talk against the Van Der Sloot parents was caused by misunderstandings about the original search warrant which, following valid legal guidelines that we in the U.S. also observe, stipulated a search of Joran's apartment, not the rest of the family's adjacent residence.
Those connections that Paulus supposedly possessed not only didn't get him the job that he moved his family half way around the world to get, they couldn't prevent him from being arrested and questioned extensively. (With connections like this, who needs enemies?) The assertion that "at very least," he received inside information about the case is based on speculation. However, we do know that Paulus could not visit his son, which could have been permitted, while Joran was incarcerated. We also know that a court back in the Netherlands (far away from his supposed connections) ruled that Paulus' arrest was unjust and paid him symbolic compensation.
The security guards were not employed at Natalee's hotel. In fact, at the time of the disappearance, they were unemployed. I do not know, nor do you, why exactly they were arrested, but a judge reviewing their police interviews ordered their incarceration. (From what we know, neither gentleman is especially articulate or educated, so it's possible that they didn't originally present their stories in the best possible way.) One (John) apparently had been reported to have harassed women on the beach and one (Jones) had some previous police trouble. In addition, items were confiscated from one of their houses. In any case, we know that Jones' lawyer (who had previously also represented John) actually declined to petition for any early release, quite wisely waiting until the next scheduled judicial review to allow the police to clear his client.
hollyblue
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Thank you for providing the many links you do for all of us and keeping us up-to-date. Mine aren't the "Bombshell" but I try to contribute.:innocent:
Yes, another gambling town and one that was on the tournament circuit, but had been cancelled. Dumb or dumber; but some people seem to have trouble taking the high road when making decisions and their actions come into play; especially abductors or murders. JVS had the opportunity and chance and chose otherwise.
Some just never grow up; although I will say, IMO, the parenting he recieved prolly didn't help any either.
I will add Curacavi to the map. When reports first came out they had said Santiago and I forgot to change it. TY for reminding me. I'm having trouble locating the media thread for JVS tho. :waitasec: If someone can provide a link, I will add the map. TIA
Peliman
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Yes THANK-YOU everyone for the links and comments. The Thai connection has me more curious. Here's a more detailed account I think has just been submitted.
Snippet
He bragged to friends by email that he had recruited a dozen young Thai women who were on their way to Hollandeach for a finders fee of $13,000.
Barbie Latza Nadeau: Will Natalees Father Find Her? In Holland, he met up with an old friend who had just returned from Thailand with a string of exotic dancers. The friend was netting $13,000 in cash for each woman he brought into a Dutch prostitution ring. Van der Sloot, a born risk-taker, wanted in on the action, and his friend quickly set him up with the Dutch pimp.
Van der Sloot told his parents that he wanted to go to Thailand to study and make a fresh start in a country where no one would have ever heard of him or Natalee Holloway. But what he really wanted to do was cash in on the countrys lucrative sex trade. He enrolled in Rangsit University as a cover, got a student visa, and took on an assumed name. By day, he would play the role of a student. By night, he would be Murphy Jenkins, owner of DD Consulting, which he would describe as a modeling agency specializing in placing strippers in Hollands better clubs. He even had business cards with a Dutch telephone number printed up.
Much more info at the link
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20100716/ts_dailybeast/9029_joranvanderslootssextradeaccusations
Snippet
He bragged to friends by email that he had recruited a dozen young Thai women who were on their way to Hollandeach for a finders fee of $13,000.
Barbie Latza Nadeau: Will Natalees Father Find Her? In Holland, he met up with an old friend who had just returned from Thailand with a string of exotic dancers. The friend was netting $13,000 in cash for each woman he brought into a Dutch prostitution ring. Van der Sloot, a born risk-taker, wanted in on the action, and his friend quickly set him up with the Dutch pimp.
Van der Sloot told his parents that he wanted to go to Thailand to study and make a fresh start in a country where no one would have ever heard of him or Natalee Holloway. But what he really wanted to do was cash in on the countrys lucrative sex trade. He enrolled in Rangsit University as a cover, got a student visa, and took on an assumed name. By day, he would play the role of a student. By night, he would be Murphy Jenkins, owner of DD Consulting, which he would describe as a modeling agency specializing in placing strippers in Hollands better clubs. He even had business cards with a Dutch telephone number printed up.
Much more info at the link
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20100716/ts_dailybeast/9029_joranvanderslootssextradeaccusations
FLNY
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Here's the link to the media thread:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106482&page=7
Thanks again!
hollyblue
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That's why I am so confused about Vina Del Mar and Santiago. If he was on his way to Santiago, then did he have plans to go back to Vina Del Mar at a later time for his property or did he just plan to dump it and leave it there? Would be interesting to know where he was headed.....what his plans were, even tho it's moot at this point?
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