GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #24

[otto]

My bolding

This is nonsense. I have to question the intent behind continuing to misrepresent the facts.

Is the intent here to say that BH is the one that is responsible for JVDS going to Peru and murdering SF? Is the intent here to say that BH is responsible for whatever issue JVDS might have been going through?

Is the intent here to say that BH should have been more comncerned about the murderer of her child than this murderer extorting her?

ADVS claiming afterwards that they wanted JVDS to go to an institution was for his addictions, he refused to go, he was an adult, is that also the fault of BH? There is nothing to say that he wouldn't have found another way to still go to Peru aside from extorting his first victim's family.

I have more faith in Peru's justice system that they would never fall for any obvious attempt by the defense to blame his first victim when the evidence points to the contrary.

I think you have misunderstood what I wrote. You suggest that my opinion is misrepresenting the facts. Let's look at the points individually:

I don't think it will help Ms Holloway if it comes out that Beth gave him $25k; that without that money Joran would never have been in Peru.

Joran was scheduled to go to the Netherlands for psychiatric treatment on the same day he went to Peru. He was broke and without the $25k, he could not go anywhere - except to the Netherlands for treatment (plane tickets and appointments had already been arranged by his mother and uncle)

If Joran can demonstrate that he was pushed to the edge of a mental breakdown because of anything related to Ms Holloway's family (like the visit in prison), he may be able to establish that the murder in Peru was a result of extreme mental stress.

I'm looking at legal arguments that may be presented.

 

[suzihawk]

I think you have misunderstood what I wrote. You suggest that my opinion is misrepresenting the facts. Let's look at the points individually:

I don't think it will help Ms Holloway if it comes out that Beth gave him $25k; that without that money Joran would never have been in Peru.

Joran was scheduled to go to the Netherlands for psychiatric treatment on the same day he went to Peru. He was broke and without the $25k, he could not go anywhere - except to the Netherlands for treatment (plane tickets and appointments had already been arranged by his mother and uncle)

If Joran can demonstrate that he was pushed to the edge of a mental breakdown because of anything related to Ms Holloway's family (like the visit in prison), he may be able to establish that the murder in Peru was a result of extreme mental stress.

I'm looking at legal arguments that may be presented.

Do you have a legitimate link (other than from the mouths of any VanderSloot) that this was actually scheduled? I don't believe a word that comes from their mouths.

At any rate, even if he went to Peru using money he surrepticiously received (extorted) from BH that hardly makes her responsible for him murdering Stephany. It's pretty convenient to play the 'if only' game in order to blame the victim(s). javascript:;

 

[Hazel]

What Kimster said and stop bickering. BH can be discussed as far as her taped visits to JVDS go, otherwise NH is off the table. We established those rules a long time back, so let's keep them in mind.

Salem

Thank you, thank you, thank you! :bow:

 

[Hazel]

There's little doubt that Joran murdered Stefanie, but he wants to omit any possibility that robbery was the motive. The prosecution may introduce the point that Joran gambled a lot of money and needed more, but I don't think it will help Ms Holloway if it comes out that Beth gave him $25k; that without that money Joran would never have been in Peru. If the $25k comes out, it may also be revealed that Joran's family had arranged for him to go to the Netherlands for mental health treatment on the same day he fled to Peru ... which opens another can of worms: that of Beth's objectives of finding her daughter versus Anita's objectives of having experts sort out Joran. If Joran can demonstrate that he was pushed to the edge of a mental breakdown because of anything related to Ms Holloway's family (like the visit in prison), he may be able to establish that the murder in Peru was a result of extreme mental stress.

Yes otto, you are right. There is always consequences to actions, and many times things backfire. What might seem like a good idea at the time, can have adverse consequences in the future.

This is a serious matter, this trial is about the horrific murder of an innocent young girl. I am so sad this happened to her. She had a wonderful life, and you can just feel the love and how united that family is by just listening to the videos; how much her parents adored her only daughter. When I listened her mother describing their relationship, how they would always hug and cuddle, and talk about everything, it's so heartbreaking. Her brothers and the rest of the family are suffering terribly, her murder has affected so many lives :'(

The money angle is going to be brought in during the trial. He was broke and desperate. I very much doubt the 'mental breakdown' could be used as his defence in Stephany's murder trial. Way too much evidence against him.... he is done!

I cannot comment much on what happened before to J arriving in Lima in May 2010, but is not that difficult to understand the dynamics of how things unfolded prior to that. I am still at awe finding out about all that 'activity'

 

[annalia]

If in fact the defense would ever even attempt to use such a tactic, it wouldn't be considered legal arguments, an act of desperation would be much more accurate.

Fact, there are records that show that JVDS had emotional issues beginning at a very young age. I don't have the links but I recall it quite vividly because I was absolutely stunned. There was an interview with Jean Casarez where she states that she was shown these records and it began when he was a very young child. JVDS' old attorney at the time wanted to use it to show that he always had mental problems, therefore not responsible for SF' murder. His parents knew he had problems. So, would be very easy to show that the murder of SF wasn't due to any purported hounding by his first victim's family.

Fact, JVDS was already traveling the world on other people's money. He had already established this pattern of behavior. His immigration records showed that he had traveled in and out of Thailand to gambling places in other countries 18 times in 16 months. There is nothing to suggest that given his pattern of past behavior and his prior schemes to get money that he still would not have found another way out of Aruba.

Fact, JVDS was hanging out in casinos and bars underage on a regular basis. His pattern of behavior at such a young age would easily lead to his future addictions. Easy to show that his already established pattern of behavior was not the result or fault of any purported hounding by his first victim's family.

Fact, JVDS' parents had been making excuses for him and continually financing him over the years knowing full well that he had serious issues, knowing full well that he was an addict, knowing full well that he was on a downward spiral. If there really was an attempt to finally get him treatment for being an addict ( and that's reportedly all it was, treatment for his gambling, alcohol and drug addictions, and AVDS saying he might be bi-polar, I hardly think BH turned him bi-polar too), it could easily be shown as too little too late. If there really is some need here to place blame on others to lessen JVDS' culpability in SF' murder, then probably should look no further than them.

Fact, JVDS lied and lied and then lied some more, made money time and again off his first victim taunting her family, sending authorities and loved ones on wild goose chases. If there was *hounding* it was by JVDS'. He tried to do it again with SF, but didn't get away with it.

Fact, Aruban officials had officially concluded that JVDS is the only primary suspect in the NH disappearance. The FBI has filed charges for extortion, with the evidence to support it.

Fact, JVDS just filed a multi million dollar lawsuit naming SF' father in it. The pattern of behavior in blaming his victims is now extended to include Mr Flores.

I'll give more credit to the Peruvian justice system to ever fall for such lies and desperate maneuvers. As that saying goes, people didn't just fall off of the turnip truck.

It helps to keep things clear when sticking to facts.

JMHO

 

[fran]

:bump:

http://www.rnw.nl/english/bulletin/joran-van-der-sloot-murder-trial-start

Dutchman Joran van der Sloot is to go on trial in the Peruvian capital Lima on Friday. He is accused of murdering Stephany Flores in his Lima hotel room on 30 May 2010.

Lima’s Public Prosecutor has announced he will seek a 30-year prison term and a fine of 50,000 euros. The trial, which is expected to attract considerable media coverage, will begin at 10.00 hours local time. The trial will be held in Lima’s Lurigancho prison near the Castro Castro prison where Mr Van der Sloot is on remand.

:great:

Wonder what kind of media coverage with the in U.S. are going to get?? :waitasec:

Let's concentrate on the trial that is to begin this Friday.

Joran Van der Sloot on trial for murder.

Let's pray justice is served for at least one of his 'alleged' victims!

fran

 

[Hazel]

It's hard to say whether that will come into play. Joran's defense may argue that Beth was officially admitted to the prison, that she claimed that she had spoken with authorities and that she claimed that Joran could have his life back - but first he had to reveal Natalie's whereabouts. Joran's response was to contact Aruban authorities and claim that he would reveal her whereabouts if they brought him back to Aruba. Of course, the Arubans knew better than to expect Joran to tell the truth. Still, it may be argued that she represented herself as someone in authority and that Joran had no choice but to believe that she had authority since prison officials allowed her to talk with him.

I think that Beth's visit may be presented as another example that he was hounded for five years until he went crazy. Do we know how long the trial is scheduled to last?

Like I said before her visiting him in prison in Lima is understandable, the crew that made it possible for her didn't know what she was going to say. In one video the Dutch guy is seen asking her what she is going to say, and she answers that she doesn't know.
My guess is they wanted to give her this opportunity and went through a lot of trouble making this possible for her, maybe just so she will feel that she did everything she could as a mother desperate to find out where her daughter's remains are, and what happened during her last hours.

Well, we all see what she ended up saying. Perhaps it would have been better she had thought it over, and 'know' what she was going to say, maybe even have a script prepared for her, because what she said is now on tape, there is not much that can be done about that.

After that meeting, we see her sitting on a bed with the crew member, he is asking her the same questions I would have asked her at that point. One of her responses is she wouldn't have done it any different, so with that IMO it's clear that what she said was what she wanted to say. She shows no regrets, she is satisfied with how things went.

disclaimer: I am not making any of this up, all the tapes are public, anyone can view them on YouTube, OK, I have the extra advantage that I have help understanding what is said in Dutch, but actually that is not necessary.....what is said in English is what I am commenting on.

IMHO J handled the situation really well, he was calm, polite, listened to her attentively, didn't interrupt her while she was talking, got her e-mail addy, and gave her his attorney's card I think.

What was that for?

 

[suzihawk]

Like I said before her visiting him in prison in Lima is understandable, the crew that made it possible for her didn't know what she was going to say. In one video the Dutch guy is seen asking her what she is going to say, and she answers that she doesn't know.
My guess is they wanted to give her this opportunity and went through a lot of trouble making this possible for her, maybe just so she will feel that she did everything she could as a mother desperate to find out where her daughter's remains are, and what happened during her last hours.

Well, we all see what she ended up saying. Perhaps it would have been better she had thought it over, and 'know' what she was going to say, maybe even have a script prepared for her, because what she said is now on tape, there is not much that can be done about that.

After that meeting, we see her sitting on a bed with the crew member, he is asking her the same questions I would have asked her at that point. One of her responses is she wouldn't have done it any different, so with that IMO it's clear that what she said was what she wanted to say. She shows no regrets, she is satisfied with how things went.

disclaimer: I am not making any of this up, all the tapes are public, anyone can view them on YouTube, OK, I have the extra advantage that I have help understanding what is said in Dutch, but actually that is not necessary.....what is said in English is what I am commenting on.

IMHO J handled the situation really well, he was calm, polite, listened to her attentively, didn't interrupt her while she was talking, got her e-mail addy, and gave her his attorney's card I think.

What was that for?

I guess I just don't understand your point, Hazel. What BH said or didn't say to JVS during her visit will have nothing to do with his current trial, IMO. Clearly she doesn't have the authority to promise him anything. She knows that, the authorities know it and certainly HE knew it.

I don't know why she would have any regrets. She didn't do anything illegal. She finally had the opportunity to confront him - face to face, one on one - after five long years and she took that opportunity since she finally had a captive audience, so to speak. She had her say at long last. So what if it wasn't rehearsed or scripted? She wanted to face him and let him know she wasn't going away - ever. She did that. It was important to her.

I guess I just don't understand what you find so incriminating about it.

 

[redheadedgal]

Wikipedia is a notoriously bad source for information. Anyone can write the material and human error is rampant. Good post red.

yes-- info can be outdated, not linked to credible sources, just plain wrong etc... all of which i discovered on that one page. i actually clicked on several source links only to find articles no longer existed-- so there's no real "proof" available... which is not acceptable imo.

and thanks!

 

[otto]

Yes otto, you are right. There is always consequences to actions, and many times things backfire. What might seem like a good idea at the time, can have adverse consequences in the future.

This is a serious matter, this trial is about the horrific murder of an innocent young girl. I am so sad this happened to her. She had a wonderful life, and you can just feel the love and how united that family is by just listening to the videos; how much her parents adored her only daughter. When I listened her mother describing their relationship, how they would always hug and cuddle, and talk about everything, it's so heartbreaking. Her brothers and the rest of the family are suffering terribly, her murder has affected so many lives :'(

The money angle is going to be brought in during the trial. He was broke and desperate. I very much doubt the 'mental breakdown' could be used as his defence in Stephany's murder trial. Way too much evidence against him.... he is done!

I cannot comment much on what happened before to J arriving in Lima in May 2010, but is not that difficult to understand the dynamics of how things unfolded prior to that. I am still at awe finding out about all that 'activity'

My understanding (although I haven't read up on it lately) is that Joran had pretty much hit the skids before he went to Peru. After finishing high school, he went to the Netherlands to study, but he pretty much drank and partied until he was asked to leave the program. He co-authored a book about himself at this time. He then transferred to an affiliated school in Thailand (think that's where it was). Again, he did not apply himself to his studies. He had a media guy from the Netherlands and his parents (I believe his parents contributed financially as well) put money together so he could buy/run a cafe in Thailand. That was poorly managed and so he sold it at a loss. Next, he thought he could run a business of importing women to work the bars in the Netherlands, but he wanted the women to apply for student visas - another legal violation. When his father died, he returned to Aruba and gambled, partied, sat around the house ... did nothing. He was broke, had no future, had no career hopes and hit rock bottom. His mother convinced him to go for psychiatric treatment in the Netherlands and Joran agreed. His mother purchased plane tickets and his uncle, in the field of psychiatry, had arranged to have him admitted for assessment.

The factor that would have terrified Joran regarding psychiatric assessment is that once he was admitted to a psychiatric facility in the Netherlands, he would have a very difficult time being released. He could have remained there for the remainder of his life. It's very difficult to be released from psychiatric facilities in the NL, moreso given his track record.

It was probably his desperation to get out of being committed to a psychiatric facility that put him on the path of desperately needing money ... and that is when he hatched his plan to contact Beth.

... just my opinion ... based on following the case for many years

 

[redheadedgal]

Hi vlpate... would you mind sharing what book you're reading?

i believe it's portrait of a monster: jvds, a murder in peru and the natalee holloway mystery by lisa pulitzer... the same author as who co-authored the book about the casey anthony trial with prosecutor jeff ashton.

both excellent books btw!

 

[redheadedgal]

I think that Beth's visit may be presented as another example that he was hounded for five years until he went crazy. Do we know how long the trial is scheduled to last?

jvds wouldn't have been "hounded" if he didn't cause the disappearance and possible death of BH's daughter and then proceed to lie to/manipulate both LE and BH and basically taunt her for those following 5 years-- which would not be hard to prove in court imo.

maybe hazel knows the answer to your question about the trial-- i have no idea.

 

[Hazel]

I think you have misunderstood what I wrote. You suggest that my opinion is misrepresenting the facts. Let's look at the points individually:

I don't think it will help Ms Holloway if it comes out that Beth gave him $25k; that without that money Joran would never have been in Peru.

Joran was scheduled to go to the Netherlands for psychiatric treatment on the same day he went to Peru. He was broke and without the $25k, he could not go anywhere - except to the Netherlands for treatment (plane tickets and appointments had already been arranged by his mother and uncle)

If Joran can demonstrate that he was pushed to the edge of a mental breakdown because of anything related to Ms Holloway's family (like the visit in prison), he may be able to establish that the murder in Peru was a result of extreme mental stress.

I'm looking at legal arguments that may be presented.

Hmmm, I have to agree with your first two points; he was broke, his father had recently passed away, so I too believe he would have had no choice but to go to Holland; consequently, Stephany would be alive today.

What I fail to see is how the defence could establish that the murder in Peru was a result of extreme mental stress. Was he already aware of the FBI operation? Did he consider himself at that point a man on the run?

Still, even if the defence can prove he was stressed out, he could have robbed her without resourcing to hurting her nor killing her, right?

 

[suzihawk]

My understanding (although I haven't read up on it lately) is that Joran had pretty much hit the skids before he went to Peru. After finishing high school, he went to the Netherlands to study, but he pretty much drank and partied until he was asked to leave the program. He co-authored a book about himself at this time. He then transferred to an affiliated school in Thailand (think that's where it was). Again, he did not apply himself to his studies. He had a media guy from the Netherlands and his parents (I believe his parents contributed financially as well) put money together so he could buy/run a cafe in Thailand. That was poorly managed and so he sold it at a loss. Next, he thought he could run a business of importing women to work the bars in the Netherlands, but he wanted the women to apply for student visas - another legal violation. When his father died, he returned to Aruba and gambled, partied, sat around the house ... did nothing. He was broke, had no future, had no career hopes and hit rock bottom. His mother convinced him to go for psychiatric treatment in the Netherlands and Joran agreed. His mother purchased plane tickets and his uncle, in the field of psychiatry, had arranged to have him admitted for assessment.

The factor that would have terrified Joran regarding psychiatric assessment is that once he was admitted to a psychiatric facility in the Netherlands, he would have a very difficult time being released. He could have remained there for the remainder of his life. It's very difficult to be released from psychiatric facilities in the NL, moreso given his track record.

It was probably his desperation to get out of being committed to a psychiatric facility that put him on the path of desperately needing money ... and that is when he hatched his plan to contact Beth.

... just my opinion ... based on following the case for many years

You base a great deal of your theory on Anita saying she intended to have him admitted to a psychiatric facility.

Again... do you have a credible link that he was indeed being admitted - other than a VanderSloot?

 

[annmarie62]

With his criminal background/history, if this particular murder (SF) had occurred in the U.S., there is NO WAY IN H-LL that JVS would have even a remote change of getting any charges dropped or diminished and he would be prosecuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law. People are quite familiar with his crimes, due to all the publicity over quite a few years, and he is hated. I just hope Peru's justice system is tough; he never deserves to live freely, EVER again. He is an absolute MENACE!!

 

[otto]

Like I said before her visiting him in prison in Lima is understandable, the crew that made it possible for her didn't know what she was going to say. In one video the Dutch guy is seen asking her what she is going to say, and she answers that she doesn't know.
My guess is they wanted to give her this opportunity and went through a lot of trouble making this possible for her, maybe just so she will feel that she did everything she could as a mother desperate to find out where her daughter's remains are, and what happened during her last hours.

Well, we all see what she ended up saying. Perhaps it would have been better she had thought it over, and 'know' what she was going to say, maybe even have a script prepared for her, because what she said is now on tape, there is not much that can be done about that.

After that meeting, we see her sitting on a bed with the crew member, he is asking her the same questions I would have asked her at that point. One of her responses is she wouldn't have done it any different, so with that IMO it's clear that what she said was what she wanted to say. She shows no regrets, she is satisfied with how things went.

disclaimer: I am not making any of this up, all the tapes are public, anyone can view them on YouTube, OK, I have the extra advantage that I have help understanding what is said in Dutch, but actually that is not necessary.....what is said in English is what I am commenting on.

IMHO J handled the situation really well, he was calm, polite, listened to her attentively, didn't interrupt her while she was talking, got her e-mail addy, and gave her his attorney's card I think.

What was that for?

Since you understand the Dutch, then you also know that Peter was a little upset that Beth did not make better use of the opportunity she had to corner Joran, but he acknowledged that this was the difference between a reporter talking with Joran and a layperson talking with Joran. He wondered why Beth, when Joran said he would write her a letter, didn't fire back that she was sitting right there so there was no need for him to write a letter. I don't remember if that was in Dutch or English, but it's in the tapes.

They did later have the discussion about what one believes they will say in a given situation and what one actually says in that situation.

 

[otto]

You base a great deal of your theory on Anita saying she intended to have him admitted to a psychiatric facility.

Again... do you have a credible link that he was indeed being admitted - other than a VanderSloot?

I take the information from Anita v.d. Sloot as valid. She is not a criminal. She is a high school art teacher and I have no reason to believe that she is not truthful. After Stefanie's murder, she clearly stated that if it was true, she would not visit Joran. It is true that I do not assume that the family of a murderer is criminal.

The only link I would be able to find (if I looked ... the info is 2 years old) is a quote from Anita v.d. Sloot.

 

[otto]

With his criminal background/history, if this particular murder (SF) had occurred in the U.S., there is NO WAY IN H-LL that JVS would have even a remote change of getting any charges dropped or diminished and he would be prosecuted and sentenced to the fullest extent of the law. People are quite familiar with his crimes, due to all the publicity over quite a few years, and he is hated. I just hope Peru's justice system is tough; he never deserves to live freely, EVER again. He is an absolute MENACE!!

The US justice system is quite different from most Westernized countries. For example, capital punishment has been abolished in all Westernized countries except the US. Also, many countries are more inclined towards rehabilitation than punishment (e.g.: Amanda Knox in Italy). That said, Joran seems to fall into a category where rehabilitation would not be successful ... at least that's my impression. I think that he will always have violent reactions to people that say something that he doesn't like and I believe that women will be his victims. I don't think they are victims of sexual assault, but of physcial violence.

I believe he received psychological counselling as a teenager because he was aggressive towards his siblings.

 

[otto]

" Is Van der Sloot mentally ill? I do not believe he has any history of psychiatric treatment. His mother, Anita van der Sloot, confessed in an exclusive interview to De Telegraaf that her son was about to be admitted to a psychiatric facility and had gone to Peru to avoid hospitalization.

A psychological examination was ordered shortly after Van der Sloot was arrested. In the report admitted to the judge, the psychologist concluded that Van der Sloot had a low frustration tolerance and was “emotionally immature.” The psychologist concluded that Van der Sloot "does not tolerate when someone tries to contradict him. It generates in him a challenging attitude." The report also notes, "He reflects a certain dominance over the opposite sex. He doesn't value the female role."

It came as no surprise that the Peruvian psychologist concluded that Van der Sloot has traits of antisocial personality disorder yet "doesn't show any psychopathological trauma that impedes him from perceiving and evaluating reality." (CNN Wire Staff, June 22, 2010). This meant that Van der Sloot was competent to stand trial."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...r-sloots-confession-is-it-admissible-in-court

 

[suzihawk]

I take the information from Anita v.d. Sloot as valid. She is not a criminal. She is a high school art teacher and I have no reason to believe that she is not truthful. After Stefanie's murder, she clearly stated that if it was true, she would not visit Joran. It is true that I do not assume that the family of a murderer is criminal.

The only link I would be able to find (if I looked ... the info is 2 years old) is a quote from Anita v.d. Sloot.

Thank you. This is where you and I disagree. I do not find Anita VanderSloot credible - at all. She's spent her life covering and making excuses for her son. Just because she doesn't have a criminal record and is an art teacher doesn't mean she's telling the truth.

Cindy Anthony doesn't have a criminal record either. She had a reputable career in the nursing field. Does that mean she's credible as well? She's also spent her life covering for her child. Two peas...

IMO