GUILTY Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #24

[Hazel]

Sorry Hazel, I should have bolded what I was responding to. It was this part of your post that I was responding to.

Also, it is VERY clear that it is her who approaches him with a 'deal' or 'offer' or whatever anyone wants to call it. It hurts her own case, because now people are going to wonder if the 'sting' operation initiated on her end, and not what we have been told all this time: that it was him who initiated it by requesting $ in exchange for info.

What I was saying is that her saying what she did in Peru is not the same as what happened in Aruba. I don't question what happened in Aruba with his extortion because the evidence was there. And it won't hurt her case because the FBI has the evidence.

I also said looking as an outsider I can say BH going to Peru was a mistake. However putting myself in her shoes, I don't know what I would have done, I may have done the same thing after years of being taunted by the person who did that to my child.

JMHO

I see what you mean now, and totally agree with your: They are two entirely different and separate things.

IF that video of her initiating a 'deal' in Peru, after sneaking into the prison doesn't hurt her case, it does hurt her credibility and raises questions, JMHO.

I am in no way judging her decision of going to Lima....totally understandable and acceptable for a mother in such a pain to want to meet the one person she suspects is responsible for her daughter disappearance/death, but what she said is definitely NOT what I would have said....most likely I would have just broken down in tears to the point he would have had to console me, and maybe even he would have cried too, and who knows maybe he would have said ok, ok, here, this is where she is.

I also know for sure I wouldn't have started off by saying things like I don't hate you, because that doesn't ring true. You can even see the expression of disbelief in J's face...I can only imagine that put him 'on alert' and started suspecting something was up, JMO.

 

[Hazel]

i fail to see how this looks "bad"... beth is a mother DESPERATE to find answers about her daughter's disappearance... she gets the benefit of every doubt as far as i'm* concerned.

*i've followed this case since day ONE

I'm just an observer, who am not familiar with the BH's story, but very familiar with the SF's case.

As I have indicated the part that I am questioning is:

What was she offering him in exchange for information?

Read that transcript I posted, or better yet, play the video, because the tone in her voice helps get a better 'feel'

Pay close attention to what she is saying. Keep in mind that she is talking to someone who is in there for a different crime, not for her daughter's.

Keep in mind she entered the country as a tourist...keep in mind the person in jail is not a citizen from her country.

Think as someone who is not familiar with the NH's case, and who sees things from a totally unbiased point of view.

By the way, keep in mind that the 'whole world' is NOT familiar with BH's case, most people outside the US have never heard of her....I talked to someone from Florida not long ago, and believe it or not, she had never heard of her neither!

We all want to give her some closure so she can get on with her life, do you seriously think that is the right way?

 

[annalia]

I see what you mean now, and totally agree with your: They are two entirely different and separate things.

IF that video of her initiating a 'deal' in Peru, after sneaking into the prison doesn't hurt her case, it does hurt her credibility and raises questions, JMHO.

I am in no way judging her decision of going to Lima....totally understandable and acceptable for a mother in such a pain to want to meet the one person she suspects is responsible for her daughter disappearance/death, but what she said is definitely NOT what I would have said....most likely I would have just broken down in tears to the point he would have had to console me, and maybe even he would have cried too, and who knows maybe he would have said ok, ok, here, this is where she is.

I also know for sure I wouldn't have started off by saying things like I don't hate you, because that doesn't ring true. You can even see the expression of disbelief in J's face...I can only imagine that put him 'on alert' and started suspecting something was up, JMO.

That's what i was saying earlier though, I got the feeling that what she said may not have been what she intended to say but once she actually got face to face with him her emotions took over and it became overwhelming. I thought she was anything but calm, she seemed very nervous, talking fast, repeating things, rambling a bit at times. I think it became too much emotionally. It's easy to say what we think we would say when we're not in that position.

I know you said that you didn't follow the case but JVDS is a psycopath, BH crying would mean nothing to him. He probably would have just used it to extort more money from her.

Whether BH was right or wrong to go, I'm trying to not lose the focus that JVDS is the criminal here. If it wasn't for him BH wouldn't be where she is today, Natalee would still be alive and Stephany would still be alive. No one is to blame but him. He alone called the shots, he's had ample opportunity to tell the truth about what he did to Natalee, he gets no compassion from me.

JMHO

 

[annalia]

Hazel, respectfully, it is an unfair statement to refer to others as biased. If you haven't followed the case then you missed a lot and wouldn't know. Most everyone who has followed the case came to the same conclusion after seeing JVDS own actions. That's hardly biased.

JMHO

 

[Hazel]

not true imo.

jvds will never be charged with natalee's death -unless a true confession is given- so him being charged, sentenced and imprisoned for the death of stephany will also bring justice for natalee.

We don't know that for sure at the moment, perhaps in the future he would hopefully get charged with Natalee's death or disappearance. In which case, Natalee's MOM would have the RIGHT to make all the plea deals she wants in exchange for information of where is Natalee (hopefully alive somewhere).

I think you are getting my point now!!! and I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you, that him being charged and sentenced and imprisoned for the death of Stephany will also bring justice for Natalee...,

reason why there should not be any attempts to try help him get a shorter sentence or freedom or financial help to pay for his lawyers, or whatever else could be offered, because....

THAT goes against what we all want: Justice for these two beautiful girls!

 

[Hazel]

Hazel, respectfully, it is an unfair statement to refer to others as biased. If you haven't followed the case then you missed a lot and wouldn't know. Most everyone who has followed the case came to the same conclusion after seeing JVDS own actions. That's hardly biased.

JMHO

I'm sorry annalia, perhaps I didn't express myself correctly, what I meant is people are thinking with their hearts, and was trying to ask them to think from a totally ....uhmm, what's the word....well the word escapes me, but I guess you'll get my drift, from an observer's point of view

 

[suzihawk]

Hazel, respectfully, it is an unfair statement to refer to others as biased. If you haven't followed the case then you missed a lot and wouldn't know. Most everyone who has followed the case came to the same conclusion after seeing JVDS own actions. That's hardly biased.

JMHO

As you know, annalia, I've kept up with JVS from the very beginning. Rather than biased, I like to consider myself well informed.

I'm anxious for his trial to start and hope that justice will finally be delivered and that he's put away for a very, very long time. Or maybe forever, considering Peruvian 'jailhouse justice'.

Also I have tremendous admiration for Beth Holloway. As one who has lost a child at the hands of another, I didn't just lie down and blindly accept everything without question either. Unfortunately, most crime victims and their families are so shelled shocked and in pain that they're not capable of putting one foot in front of another much less taking on and confronting the person(s) responsible. More power to her!

 

[otto]

Do you have a link to OFFICIAL documents that show Joran cancelled the extortion attempt? Was it before the initial $25K payment, or after? Or was it before he got the $100 to show good faith, so he'd continue to negotiate the $25K and ????? Or was it after he received the $25K and had given FALSE info to Kelly about where Natalee was buried?

IMHO, he did NOT cancel the extortion.

He was angry when Kelly met with him the first time, because he was supposed to bring the $$$$$$$$$$$$ and didn't. But all Kelly had to do to get him talking to him again was float $100 his way. Then Joran said it would be $250K and Kelly was to bring the $25K with him, to give Joran as good faith. The rest was to be paid after the recovery of Natalee.

It appears he WISHED he could have gotten $250K, but his intent was at least the $25K before his lie was discovered.

At least after he's done serving whatever time for murdering Stafani, he'll then come to the U.S. and serve time here as well.

I hope Beth {haunts} him every day of his imprisonment! I also hope she's still here to greet Joran as he does the perp walk when he's brought to the U.S. to be tried and serve time for extortion and wire fraud! :behindbar:

JMHO
fran



http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/37635...ney-details-van-der-sloot-sting/#.TwIXPNRAbZ0

Not offhand, but I have posted the link to Beth making those statements here in the past. The information is in the program that Beth filmed with Peter de Vries.

 

[Hazel]

That's what i was saying earlier though, I got the feeling that what she said may not have been what she intended to say but once she actually got face to face with him her emotions took over and it became overwhelming. I thought she was anything but calm, she seemed very nervous, talking fast, repeating things, rambling a bit at times. I think it became too much emotionally. It's easy to say what we think we would say when we're not in that position.

Oh guys I so hope you are all right, that what came out of her mouth that day was not what she actually intended to say, and that she didn't mean to infer yet another 'deal' with him.

I agree with everything else you all have said....and am glad you do admit that what she said that day, did come out in a way that would make any 'observer' would go :noooo:.

 

[redheadedgal]

What was she offering him in exchange for information?

Read that transcript I posted, or better yet, play the video, because the tone in her voice helps get a better 'feel'

BH was/is in no power to offer jvds anything in terms of a plea deal (as you call it) or otherwise to do with his sentence, incarceration, accommodations, freedom, what have you... she is not a prosecutor in either the US, aruba or peru. as for financial help, i think she realized that is a dead end. he continues to lie and not co-operate.

do you not think it's possible she just spoke to her stream of consciousness to attempt to try once again obtain the truth?

please read the link i posted. even her lawyer denies what you are suggesting.

and yes-- i've watched the video. why would you think i haven't? i've also watched her on tv begging for answers and read about her being lied to and manipulated by jvds for years. i have also read her book about natalee and read about her experiences and pain first hand. again, i don't, and never will, judge her actions.

I know you said that you didn't follow the case but JVDS is a psycopath, BH crying would mean nothing to him. He probably would have just used it to extort more money from her.

exactly.

Hazel, respectfully, it is an unfair statement to refer to others as biased. If you haven't followed the case then you missed a lot and wouldn't know. Most everyone who has followed the case came to the same conclusion after seeing JVDS own actions. That's hardly biased.

exactly.

I think you are getting my point now!!!

not really.

As you know, annalia, I've kept up with JVS from the very beginning. Rather than biased, I like to consider myself well informed.

exactly.

 

[annalia]

Do you have a link to OFFICIAL documents that show Joran cancelled the extortion attempt? Was it before the initial $25K payment, or after? Or was it before he got the $100 to show good faith, so he'd continue to negotiate the $25K and ????? Or was it after he received the $25K and had given FALSE info to Kelly about where Natalee was buried?

IMHO, he did NOT cancel the extortion.

He was angry when Kelly met with him the first time, because he was supposed to bring the $$$$$$$$$$$$ and didn't. But all Kelly had to do to get him talking to him again was float $100 his way. Then Joran said it would be $250K and Kelly was to bring the $25K with him, to give Joran as good faith. The rest was to be paid after the recovery of Natalee.

It appears he WISHED he could have gotten $250K, but his intent was at least the $25K before his lie was discovered.

At least after he's done serving whatever time for murdering Stafani, he'll then come to the U.S. and serve time here as well.

I hope Beth {haunts} him every day of his imprisonment! I also hope she's still here to greet Joran as he does the perp walk when he's brought to the U.S. to be tried and serve time for extortion and wire fraud! :behindbar:

JMHO
fran



http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/37635...ney-details-van-der-sloot-sting/#.TwIXPNRAbZ0

Agreed, he didn't cancel anything, as if he could even do that, the crime was already committed. BH doesn't make a statement saying that JVDS told her he was canceling a deal, and I don't see where she makes a statement that says she contacted him with another offer which he then accepted. JVDS doesn't show up for a meeting, then he goes silent, when JK emails to find out what happened JVDS tells him he didn't trust him. That was more likely all part of JVDS' plan to keep them rattled and make sure they comply with his demands.

BH did indeed think in the very beginning that JVDS was finally going to tell her. When she realizes he is scamming and extorting her they get LE involved. It's a huge leap to make any claim that JVDS was simply making an offer to tell her where Natalee was is in exchange for money, and not committing a crime. It's another huge leap to claim that BH was plotting to entrap or set him up so she could have him arrested for fraud. She didn't need to, he DID extort her and commit fraud!!! The difference is that LE was already on to him.
JMHO

Here are the links to videos that BH filmed with PDV. Videos #'s 2 and 3 are where she discusses him not showing up and LE getting involved.

Video#1
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85iPwvW7izo&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL"]Peter R de Vries Oct 31`10 Extortion van der Sloot without remorse1/4 - YouTube[/ame]


Videos 2 and 3
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk91KY2OEV8&feature=related"]PRdV Oct 31`10 Extortion van der Sloot without remorse2/4 - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ3RyjM_HBM&feature=related"]PRdV Oct 31`10 Extortion van der Sloot without remorse3/4 - YouTube[/ame]

On # 4 there is an email from JVDS that says he didn't respond to an email because he thought they didn't want him to contact them but if they will fly him back to Aruba he will finish the deal. Nothing in that email about wanting to cancel or having cancelled anything.
Video #4
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7UwT6tVkFU&feature=related"]Peter R de Vries Oct 31`10 Extortion van der Sloot without remorse4/4 - YouTube[/ame]

At the end of one of the videos he actually tells BH and JK that basically they're nice people but they shouldn't be so stupid. :furious

It's obvious in the first five minutes of the first video when BH breaks down that this is a desperate mother willing to do anything to get her child back. It's also obvious that he initiated the extortion.

 

[annalia]

As you know, annalia, I've kept up with JVS from the very beginning. Rather than biased, I like to consider myself well informed.

I'm anxious for his trial to start and hope that justice will finally be delivered and that he's put away for a very, very long time. Or maybe forever, considering Peruvian 'jailhouse justice'.

Also I have tremendous admiration for Beth Holloway. As one who has lost a child at the hands of another, I didn't just lie down and blindly accept everything without question either. Unfortunately, most crime victims and their families are so shelled shocked and in pain that they're not capable of putting one foot in front of another much less taking on and confronting the person(s) responsible. More power to her!

My bolding

I'm sorry for your loss suzihawk, I can't imagine the pain and anguish. I do try to remind myself to count my blessings that my dh and I aren't part of the club that no parent wants to be a member of, losing their child, but worst of all losing them at the hands of another.

 

[Steely Dan]

That's what i was saying earlier though, I got the feeling that what she said may not have been what she intended to say but once she actually got face to face with him her emotions took over and it became overwhelming. I thought she was anything but calm, she seemed very nervous, talking fast, repeating things, rambling a bit at times. I think it became too much emotionally. It's easy to say what we think we would say when we're not in that position.

I know you said that you didn't follow the case but JVDS is a psycopath, BH crying would mean nothing to him. He probably would have just used it to extort more money from her.

Whether BH was right or wrong to go, I'm trying to not lose the focus that JVDS is the criminal here. If it wasn't for him BH wouldn't be where she is today, Natalee would still be alive and Stephany would still be alive. No one is to blame but him. He alone called the shots, he's had ample opportunity to tell the truth about what he did to Natalee, he gets no compassion from me.

JMHO

Joran will never tell BH where Natalee is, and even if he did he could probably only tell her she's in the ocean. I'm sure they didn't write down the GPS coordinates of where they dumped the body. JMO

 

[vlpate]

I am starting to 'get' what she might be feeling at the moment....if he is sentenced for 30 years, she might be feeling her chances of finding out where N's remains are, will fade away.

...and that thought scares me, scares me because she might be feeling desperate, and when people are desperate they make bad decisions.

I am now wondering what has transpired AFTER that face-to-face visit?

Wouldn't it be better to wait for after he is sentenced? Perhaps then he might have no reason to withheld the 'info' anymore, and make a deal for better 'accommodations'?

All I hope is there is no interference whatsoever now that the trial is about to start....right now it is ALL about STEPHANY!

Respectfully, had it not been for an Aruban government that allowed a murderer to walk free, there would be no STEPHANY for this to be about. I hope no one loses site of the criminal injustice that was done to Beth and Natalee. At least Stephany's family know where her body is and will see JVDS pay.

No, this is ALL about a young woman, Natalee, who would have been forgotten had Stephany not been murdered. IMO, Joran need not say another word about NH, it's pretty clear he killed her five years prior to the DAY Stephany faced his psychotic wrath. What's more, he is SO narcissistic, he left her beaten and lifeless body in a room registered to him....figuring, and understandably so, he would get by with it.

All IMO, of course.

 

[redheadedgal]

I think she might be offering him solitary confinement in exchange for the information. If he's put in the general population he'll probably be killed. The girls family and the prosecutor may have agreed that they could offer that in exchange for info on Natalies disappearance.

honouring hazel's theory for a minute: does anyone know that if BH was given permission by the prosecutor to deal on their behalf (which would explain why some may think BH sounds like she was trying to make a deal) if this would be public record? or would it be hush hush? i've never seen anything in print about this or even speculated about...

i honestly don't know how beth can even attempt to coax the truth from jvds in any way anymore (money, begging, etc)... he as lied and lied and lied... i admire her determination and strength so much!

 

[Hazel]

honouring hazel's theory for a minute: does anyone know that if BH was given permission by the prosecutor to deal on their behalf (which would explain why some may think BH sounds like she was trying to make a deal) if this would be public record? or would it be hush hush? i've never seen anything in print about this or even speculated about...

i honestly don't know how beth can even attempt to coax the truth from jvds in any way anymore (money, begging, etc)... he as lied and lied and lied... i admire her determination and strength so much!

My theory? I didn't post any theory, I did however post a transcript of what BH said in that face-to-face meeting.

I am really sorry if you didn't like my question. From the reaction I have received, seems my question (not theory) is very hard to answer.

Have to thank Annalia for giving the most possible explanation for what was said; we have to admit that there are not many ways you can interpret what was said, like for example:

"....I wont do anything until I get some information about Natalee..."

Here is the link to my original post, which includes transcript, video link and my question:

"What was she offering him in exchange for information on N's whereabouts"

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7479151#post7479151"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7479151#post7479151[/ame]

 

[Hazel]

Respectfully, had it not been for an Aruban government that allowed a murderer to walk free, there would be no STEPHANY for this to be about. I hope no one loses site of the criminal injustice that was done to Beth and Natalee. At least Stephany's family know where her body is and will see JVDS pay.

No, this is ALL about a young woman, Natalee, who would have been forgotten had Stephany not been murdered. IMO, Joran need not say another word about NH, it's pretty clear he killed her five years prior to the DAY Stephany faced his psychotic wrath. What's more, he is SO narcissistic, he left her beaten and lifeless body in a room registered to him....figuring, and understandably so, he would get by with it.

All IMO, of course.

<modsnip> So in your opinion, the upcoming trial for Stephany's murder is all about Natalee.

That says it all ....enough said ....I rest my case.

Just in case some people have missed it, JvDS is presently in Lima, Peru for murdering a young Peruvian girl named Stephany, and the trial will start this Friday at 10:00 am Lima time, which is the same time as 10:00 am EST.

 

[redheadedgal]

yes-- it is a theory. you think -aka theorize- based on how you interpret her words, emotions, actions in that video that she was there to make a deal. lets not get caught up in semantics. unless and until it's proven or beth admits this was her intent for visiting jvds, it's not fact, truth, etc.

<modsnip>

 

[vlpate]

<modsnip> So in your opinion, the upcoming trial for Stephany's murder is all about Natalee.

Enough said...I rest my case.

Just in case some people have missed it, JvDS is presently in Lima, Peru for murdering a young Peruvian girl named Stephany, and the trial will start this Friday at 10:00 am Lima time, which is the same time as 10:00 am EST.

No, the upcoming trial is not all about Natalee, but this trial could have been avoided.

 

[Hazel]

No, the upcoming trial is not all about Natalee, but this trial could have been avoided.

<modsnip> and I totally agree with you that this trial could have been avoided.