POI: Michael Pak

[WINDSOR]

Ok, so we are deciding that she had multiple clothing items on her. This solves the issue of why some of her belongings were not where her body was found actually.

If she wore jeans going into JB's place, then changed into something else there, she presumably would have been wearing the same when she left. Therefore she would have been carrying the jeans, not wearing them, and dropping them on the run through the swamp wouldn't have been and odd thing to do.

Since she had multiple items of clothing with her, she didnt not have to disrobe while in the swamp at the point the itmes were found, and then run to where she died.

She could have simply dropped them there while fumbling through the swamp in the dark.

That resolves that problem.

Tugela, I am not sure what problem is solved. For months people have been saying that it was hypothermia that caused SG to remove clothing. I never accepted that theory. Now you are saying SG had surplus clothing that she
was carrying and she just dropped them in the marsh, to ease her journey.

Can you tell me what happened the items that were not found in the marsh or anyplace else?

Secondly if SG had removed her jeans prior to entering the marsh, what garment(s) was she wearing on her lower body?

Neither GC nor MP made any public comment on this issue. Most men are quite cognizant of young women's apparel or lack of it.

MOO

 

[Tugela]

Tugela, I am not sure what problem is solved. For months people have been saying that it was hypothermia that caused SG to remove clothing. I never accepted that theory. Now you are saying SG had surplus clothing that she
was carrying and she just dropped them in the marsh, to ease her journey.

Can you tell me what happened the items that were not found in the marsh or anyplace else?

Secondly if SG had removed her jeans prior to entering the marsh, what garment(s) was she wearing on her lower body?

Neither GC nor MP made any public comment on this issue. Most men are quite cognizant of young women's apparel or lack of it.

MOO

I never said anything about hyperthermia, so I'm not going to defend other people's theories. You should direct those arguments at them, not me.

If she got changed once in the house, presumably she would have been wearing the clothing she had in the house. The other items she would have been carrying. If she subsequently was running around the neighborhood, then running through the swamp in the dark, it is reasonable that she would have dropped things at various places (since was not wearing them).

Items not dropped in the marsh, or other places they were found, were simply dropped elsewhere. Remember, she wasn't known as potentially dead until the GB4 were found, which was many months later, so any other items not immediately found would have simply be seen as trash and thrown away by whoever found them.

 

[Tugela]

I think the opposite would be true. If MP or anyone thought she was alive they would then hold on to her stuff to give back to her when she was located. Only someone who knew she was already dead and didn't want her things found would throw them away. IMO:twocents:

If she left stuff at JB's house, MP would not have them. JB had no reason to hold them for her, after the drama he would have thrown them away.

Put yourself in that situation. You hire an escort, she goes crazy, potentially embarrassing you in front of your neighbours and maybe attracting the attention of the cops. And she leaves a bunch of clothing behind. You don't know she is dead, just that she ran away making a ruckas. What would you do with the stuff she left behind? Hold it until she comes back? Or cut your ties with the situation and throw them away. Most people would do the latter.

 

[Tugela]

I disagree. We just have more questions that we cannot answer and that isn't a resolution.

** Also, one thing I do think it's easy to "assume" and that is... Gus Colletti would have said she was not wearing pants.
It's 5-6am and there's a woman screaming for help/pounding on his door... if she was half-dressed I feel sure this would be something he'd mention.

It is a resolution, and a simple one at that. It is just not a popular one, because it doesn't fit with the theory people want to believe.

 

[Tugela]

GC said that the only thing she was carrying was her jacket over her shoulder. He wasn't sure about her pocketbook unless it was under her jacket.

I agree that if she was only partially dressed he and the others who saw her would have definitely mentioned that. Also if she was loaded down with her stuff, he would have mentioned that her arms were full.

SG never went into the marsh or discarded her possessions there. Her items were placed in a pile and not "thrown" or "haphazardly trailing" through the reeds, marsh and thick brambles.

I believe she was placed were she was found by way of OP and not dragged through the marsh. Maybe we could account for all of her clothing and items if we knew what was found together with her body by OP and what LE has in their possession. IMO

Or she was wearing a dress, and a woman in a dress wasn't an odd thing to see?

If she was carrying her stuff, with the jacket draped over her arm, he may not have noticed. Pretty easy to do if you are otherwise distracted by her wierd behaviour. You won't pay much attention to her fashion sense in that situation.

Likewise, if she was carying that stuff, in a swamp in the dark, a swamp which is fairly dense, and fleeing at the same time, it is pretty easy to imagine that she snagged on something and dropped the other items to free her hands. Then, once dropped in the pitch dark, picking them up again would be a problem.

It seems entirely plausible to me.

 

[fred&edna]

It is a resolution, and a simple one at that. It is just not a popular one, because it doesn't fit with the theory people want to believe.

It's not popular with me because it's faulty.

 

[Vivalor]

I never said anything about hyperthermia, so I'm not going to defend other people's theories. You should direct those arguments at them, not me.

If she got changed once in the house, presumably she would have been wearing the clothing she had in the house. The other items she would have been carrying. If she subsequently was running around the neighborhood, then running through the swamp in the dark, it is reasonable that she would have dropped things at various places (since was not wearing them).

Items not dropped in the marsh, or other places they were found, were simply dropped elsewhere. Remember, she wasn't known as potentially dead until the GB4 were found, which was many months later, so any other items not immediately found would have simply be seen as trash and thrown away by whoever found them.

But is it really logical to think that a girl who was running scared for her life would think to grab her stuff? I mean if she was on her phone with 911 then panicked and took off out JB door running I'm pretty sure the last thing she would care about is her stuff. I think her life was her number on fear that night.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

But is it really logical to think that a girl who was running scared for her life would think to grab her stuff? I mean if she was on her phone with 911 then panicked and took off out JB door running I'm pretty sure the last thing she would care about is her stuff. I think her life was her number on fear that night.

Also, I would think Coletti would have mentioned it if Shannan ran to his door with an armful of her personal belongings in tow, and no pants on.

JMO

 

[NoviceSleuth]

But is it really logical to think that a girl who was running scared for her life would think to grab her stuff? I mean if she was on her phone with 911 then panicked and took off out JB door running I'm pretty sure the last thing she would care about is her stuff. I think her life was her number on fear that night.

IMO When SG left JB's she only had her cell and jacket. Already terrified, she probably grabbed it on her way out. MP said that JB "scared" SG out of his house. MP would have seen what she had with her. I think her stuff was that last thing on her mind.

Also, if she was running with her stuff and her arms were full (and maybe still on her cell to 911) she would have dropped some items when she fell down JB's stairs. Only her hoop earring was found by her sister there later.

GC didn't mention any items or clothing that she was carrying with her - only her jacket over her shoulder. If she had any stuff left to carry it would have been dropped when she fell again down GC's stairs.

GC and MP both saw SG when she darted from behind his boat and started running. They would have seen any items she was carrying.

BB also saw SG that night and said only a jacket was dropped and left on Anchor Way. Did she see anything else?

By this time, SG just had the clothes on her back. IMO

 

[WINDSOR]

We can beat ourselves up arguing over what clothes, where, and when SG was in possesion of.

I am of the opinion that both SG (in one part of the marsh) and some of her clothes (in another part of the marsh) were discarded by someone who was criminally involved in her death. I also believe there are articles belonging to SG, that have been disposed of so as not to incriminate the guilty.

If everything were found together at SG's final resting place, that would support her traversing the marsh and expiring there. However that is not what the evidence shows to me.

If SG left some clothing at JB's, why would not JB given those items to MP (maybe he did). JB knew MP, MP returned to Oak Beach on May 3, 2010. No doubt in his effort to search for SG he would have touched base with JB. JB could have given the items to MP at that time.

Remember nobody on May 3, 2010 (except the culprit) knew SG was dead.

More questions for MP.

1) Did MP visit JB on may 3, 2010
2) Did JB give any of SG's items to MP?
3) Where are those items now?



MOO

 

[WINDSOR]

Weird thought (probably wine induced).

IF (that is my biggest if) SCPD is corrupt, and they do not want the real story made public about SG's death (and the LISK); does it not follow that MP's life may be at risk?

I know this sounds like some alien conspiracy theory, but hear me out.

MP is only one who really knows the relationship between JB, SG, CPH and MP. All three of these men have been officially cleared as POI's by SCPD.

MP is likely the only one who knows if a relationship exists between the SCPD, CPH, and JB. If MP knows 'things' he is in an ideal person to cause a lot of grief for the SCPD.

Many months ago I thought his health could be at risk, I do not think that health risk has diminished.

On the other hand if SCPD believes/knows that MP is the culprit in the SG case, they can rest assured he will not be talking to anyone, lest he incriminates himself.

If MP is the culprit, it is probably best that MP is not charged with any crime from the SCPD's point of view.

MOO

 

[Tugela]

But is it really logical to think that a girl who was running scared for her life would think to grab her stuff? I mean if she was on her phone with 911 then panicked and took off out JB door running I'm pretty sure the last thing she would care about is her stuff. I think her life was her number on fear that night.

Then perhaps she wasn't really being threatened, and was instead having paranoid delusions? If she was not under direct threat then she would have still taken her stuff, even if acting crazy.

And in any case we know from Colettis account that she was carrying at least her jacket, plus other stuff was dropped along the way. Things don't just "fall off", they have to be dropped, which means they have to be carried.

That means she had time to pick them up.

 

[Tugela]

It's not popular with me because it's faulty.

Faulty in what way?

Someone running through the bush in the dark could not drop something they were carrying?

I've dropped my keys while running through a dark area once. Couldn't find them (due to it being dark).

And that wasn't even in a swamp.

So, it is entirely plausible.

 

[Tugela]

IMO When SG left JB's she only had her cell and jacket. Already terrified, she probably grabbed it on her way out. MP said that JB "scared" SG out of his house. MP would have seen what she had with her. I think her stuff was that last thing on her mind.

Also, if she was running with her stuff and her arms were full (and maybe still on her cell to 911) she would have dropped some items when she fell down JB's stairs. Only her hoop earring was found by her sister there later.

GC didn't mention any items or clothing that she was carrying with her - only her jacket over her shoulder. If she had any stuff left to carry it would have been dropped when she fell again down GC's stairs.

GC and MP both saw SG when she darted from behind his boat and started running. They would have seen any items she was carrying.

BB also saw SG that night and said only a jacket was dropped and left on Anchor Way. Did she see anything else?

By this time, SG just had the clothes on her back. IMO

If she was carrying other stuff, GC may not have seen them. Usually when I carry a jacket, I have it draped over my forearm, which would hide anything I had in my hand. So I don't see anything odd about that. And in any case, in a situation like where there is a potential threat that he would have been focussed on her face, not paying attention to what clothing she had with her.

As for dropping stuff, at JB and GCs houses, there would have been light and her path would have been unimpeded, so picking up would be simple. Not so in the swamp, where it would be dark (no streetlights in swamps), plus she would have been struggling through brush and mire. Picking up then would considerably more difficult.

 

[fred&edna]

Faulty in what way?

Someone running through the bush in the dark could not drop something they were carrying?

I've dropped my keys while running through a dark area once. Couldn't find them (due to it being dark).

And that wasn't even in a swamp.

So, it is entirely plausible.

Because you arrived at a proclaimed resolution/conclusion without any evidence.

We have several MSM links to the items in question (i.e. boots and black strappy shoes).

You say she discarded these items (boots and black strappy shoes) as she moved through the marsh... but you provide no links nor quotes stating these items were found.

Also, in one post you even suggest she could have been wearing a dress.... which is nothing more than your suggestion.

If you provide substantial proof that boots, strappy shoes or a dress was found in that marsh then I might think your claims were more than "just a simplistic theory".

 

[Vivalor]

Then perhaps she wasn't really being threatened, and was instead having paranoid delusions? If she was not under direct threat then she would have still taken her stuff, even if acting crazy.

And in any case we know from Colettis account that she was carrying at least her jacket, plus other stuff was dropped along the way. Things don't just "fall off", they have to be dropped, which means they have to be carried.

That means she had time to pick them up.

But if she was paranoid and having delusions then the threat would have still been real to her. She still would have been in fear of her life. The fear was real. Just like if someone had schizophrenia the voices are real to them. Doesn't mean the voices are real to everyone els. But to that person it is very real.
And what was she picking up? As far as I have heard Colettis said he only seen her jacket and that was found later on the side of the road. So then that means she did not pick it up and had left it where she dropped it.

 

[Vivalor]

However, maybe we are all getting a little to wrapped up in what we don't know. These are things that we probably will never know unless if someone is charged and this info comes out in a trial.
What are all the facts? Or should I say reports...

SG was driven to JB house by MP around 2 AM
SG spent about three hours in JB house until calling 911
SG was on the phone with 911 for 14 min
SG was in fear for her life
MP was called into help then had enough and went back out to his car
SG took off out of JB house with her cell phone and jacket
SG ran to GC house and was stated saying "help me"
SG then hid under GC boat after seeing MP head lights
SG then ran from the boat
BB reported seeing SG after this had taken place
SG jacket was found on the side of the road a few days later
SG was then found dead a year later

Am I missing anything? Do I get anything wrong? Then let me know please.
But with the facts that I know. It is hard to believe that a girl who was in fear of her life, saying that people were trying to kill her ends up dead by accidental drowning or hypothermia. Yeah right!!
Truly what are the odds? What are the odds that a woman calling 911 saying that someone was trying to kill her ended up dead and in the search for her body other bodys were found.
What are the odds that four of the bodys that were found, were of young girls just like SG?
All call girls off of cl or bp...and in their 20's and found within miles and yards of each other? Is there any other logical way to explain any of this?
I've often wondered what if....and a BIG what if SG was having a break down. Ran and then bumped into the SK who had nothing to do with JB or MP? But then I couldn't go with that because of the fact that she was scared for her life before she ran and once again...what are the odds?
Then I think that JB had to have had something to do with this but then how does MP add in.
Then it hit me...what if SG was threaten by two males in JB house and said they were going to kill her...but then how would they do this with her driver with?
What if they said they were going to kill him and her? Maybe MP really doesn't have anything to do with this. Maybe they were going to kill SG and then kill MP so they didn't have any one to wittiness that SG went missing. But, SG was to quick to call the police and they backed off then. And MP really did leave at 6 AM...not thinking that JB or someone in his house had went looking for SG and found her.
When I think about it I can't get over the fact her earring was found. I mean yes it could have just fell out. But it also could have fell out in struggle to get SG back into JB house.
And as far as why would they dump her body so close...well do you think they were really planning on the police finding the other bodys? After all it did LE some time to find the GB4....didn't it?
Sorry kind of rambling on but these are all just thoughts of what might have happen. And at this point I guess nothing is not worth thinking about.

 

[Tugela]

Because you arrived at a proclaimed resolution/conclusion without any evidence.

We have several MSM links to the items in question (i.e. boots and black strappy shoes).

You say she discarded these items (boots and black strappy shoes) as she moved through the marsh... but you provide no links nor quotes stating these items were found.

Also, in one post you even suggest she could have been wearing a dress.... which is nothing more than your suggestion.

If you provide substantial proof that boots, strappy shoes or a dress was found in that marsh then I might think your claims were more than "just a simplistic theory".

She was carrying clothing....this much we know.

She was not naked.....this much we know.

Conclusion: She had multiple sets of clothing.

Conclusion: she was carrying parts of multiple sets of clothing.

Clothing and other items were found at a point in the swamp removed from the point her body was found/

The clothing and then the body were on a more or less linear direction extrapolated from the direction we know she was moving.

Conclusion: She dropped said items while she was moving through the swamp.

It is not rocket science. I don't need a MSM link, it is fairly clear that is a logical explanation for the observed facts.

Note this is what is in MSN about what items were found: "Detectives on Tuesday and Wednesday found the woman's pocketbook with a photo ID inside, her jeans and shoes, as well as a cellphone they believe she owned. "

This is what Dormer had to say (they had not actually found her at that point): ""It's very easy to get engulfed with water, muck, and fall down and not be able to get out of there," Dormer said. "We surmise that's what happened to Shannan and she's in there some place and we're going to do everything we can to find her."

So, those items mentioned are the items found intially. They are the sorts of items someone might be carrying.

Now, what about the jacket Coletti reported her as carrying. We are supposed to believe that she was wearing her jeans but not the jacket. At that time of the year the temperature is cold enough at night that you would be wearing the jacket, not carrying it. Also, when someone appears at your door like that at the crack of dawn, you are going to be very defensive in dealing with them, which means that he would have been paying attention to her face, not her dress state. He remembers her carrying something, which his mind has backfilled as a jacket since that is something someone might carry. It was probably not a jacket at all, it was probably her jeans. And she was probably wearing something else. Either a top that appeared as a dress, or and actual dress.

 

[Tugela]

But if she was paranoid and having delusions then the threat would have still been real to her. She still would have been in fear of her life. The fear was real. Just like if someone had schizophrenia the voices are real to them. Doesn't mean the voices are real to everyone els. But to that person it is very real.
And what was she picking up? As far as I have heard Colettis said he only seen her jacket and that was found later on the side of the road. So then that means she did not pick it up and had left it where she dropped it.

There are two kinds of threat, one in which an attack could be imminent, and the other when an attack is currently under way. In the first case you would be in a panic, but not to the extent where you abandon concious thought. In the second case your immediate reaction is to fight or flight and you do nothing else, your reactions are entirely instinctive.

There is a difference in intensity and in the way you do things. She was not being immediately attacked, so she would have been reacting as per the first case. We know that to be true since in case 2 she simply would be fleeing, not looking for help.

There is no evidence at all that case 2 was in effect. There was no evidence of physical assault on the body. Coletti reported no evidence of trauma. The 23 minute 911 call had her talking for that length of time, with other people in the background trying to calm her down. Again, no evidence of assault or attack there. So, if there is no evidence for assault at all, why should we think case 2 is in effect? On the other hand, everything we know is consistent with case 1 and case 1 only.

Taken as a whole, the 911 call, the evidence of MP/JB in conjunction with the 911 call, the route she took on leaving JB's residence, as evidenced by various witnesses, the items found along that route, extropolation of the route into the swamp, where additional items were found, items that might be carried if someone fled a residence in a hurry, and finally extrapolating that route even further into the swamp to where her body was found.

All of that is consistent with her entering into a paranoid delusional state and fleeing into the swamp, where she died. Why would she die? Well, it so happens that her behaviour is consistent with someone in the process of ODing on certain drugs. And the final stage of that without treatment is eventual cardiac arrest. And we know that she was a person who did do drugs of the sort that could generate that sort of OD.

So, it all fits. We can't say for sure that IS what happened, but it is a reasonable theory to explain the events as recorded.

What about the alternate theory, that there is some kind of killer or serial killer, who somehow went to elaborate lengths to stage a murder to look like an OD at the very moment LE were being expected to arrive at any second and do so without leaving even a trace of foul play. Absolutely none at all. Not only that, but this alleged killer is somehow part of a giant conspiracy involving the neighborhood and local LE. How would someone even go about something like that?

The simplest explanation is usually the right one, especially when that simplest explanation also happens to be largely consistent with the facts as we know them.

 

[fred&edna]

She was carrying clothing....this much we know.

She was not naked.....this much we know.

Conclusion: She had multiple sets of clothing.

Conclusion: she was carrying parts of multiple sets of clothing.

Clothing and other items were found at a point in the swamp removed from the point her body was found/

The clothing and then the body were on a more or less linear direction extrapolated from the direction we know she was moving.

Conclusion: She dropped said items while she was moving through the swamp.

It is not rocket science. I don't need a MSM link, it is fairly clear that is a logical explanation for the observed facts.

Note this is what is in MSN about what items were found: "Detectives on Tuesday and Wednesday found the woman's pocketbook with a photo ID inside, her jeans and shoes, as well as a cellphone they believe she owned. "

This is what Dormer had to say (they had not actually found her at that point): ""It's very easy to get engulfed with water, muck, and fall down and not be able to get out of there," Dormer said. "We surmise that's what happened to Shannan and she's in there some place and we're going to do everything we can to find her."

So, those items mentioned are the items found intially. They are the sorts of items someone might be carrying.

Now, what about the jacket Coletti reported her as carrying. We are supposed to believe that she was wearing her jeans but not the jacket. At that time of the year the temperature is cold enough at night that you would be wearing the jacket, not carrying it. Also, when someone appears at your door like that at the crack of dawn, you are going to be very defensive in dealing with them, which means that he would have been paying attention to her face, not her dress state. He remembers her carrying something, which his mind has backfilled as a jacket since that is something someone might carry. It was probably not a jacket at all, it was probably her jeans. And she was probably wearing something else. Either a top that appeared as a dress, or and actual dress.

No, not rocket science just full of "filler"