Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[Gecko100]

I don't know or care what Jodi claimed with regards to her intelligence. She is as smart as the average lawyer in that courtroom--without the experience of course--but the average lawyer has an IQ of 120.

She has an outlier perfect score in the verbal range--making her a genius in verbal ability--so I feel she is able to mask her otherwise inability to read people and situations because she has no empathy.

The average autistic does not relate at all to people or only after years of intervention. They sit and stare and spin.

Something is wrong with Jodi--about that we can all agree. The psychologists who have looked at her and at her test scores have rejected ASPD. Dr. Geffner says her tests scores do not reveal any personality disorders. Instead, she shows high anxiety issues, low self esteem, passivity, low anger, a group of characteristics that are not consistent with a psychopath.

Psychopaths are the human predators of society. They are like great white sharks. They cruise the waters looking for victims. They have no empathy, only hunger and pathological envy. They do not feel fear. They would not have anxiety issues like Jodi--their brains are not wired that way.

Something else is going on with Jodi. If it's not a personality disorder, what is it?

IMO

Very good points, and she just isn't a psychopath.
I have considered C-PTSD, and maybe an introverted intuitive framework, which might be a rare typology like only a small percentage of the wider community. She is creative by nature, and hopeless at decent quality conning and lying. If she had been a psychopath, she would have killed him cleanly and efficiently probably whilst he was asleep, closed the door and left.
What we see though, is red blooded emotionality and passion all over the floors walls and bathroom. It's not a cold blooded hit of a psychopath in any way.
Lots of different things could be the precursors of current presenting issues, sexual abuse, domestic violence, sexism, racism, oppression, misrepresentation, depression anxiety what ever it is...
I still view her as depressed anxious and suicidal, not like ASPD at all, they are truly frightening, and couldn't give two hoots, just bring on more exciting risks.
I just don't get that from her, and I think she is numb and medicated.
She is without a doubt misunderstood, and we still have no agreement and still think it's ok to kill her. I don't.
The thought of killing someone unwell, or even autistic is very unsettling to others possibly in the same position, and is totally stigmatising and discriminatory. None off us are totally infallible, and psychology originating from philosophy is not a hard science.
So it could be 50/50 either way from many angles including sociology, feminism, meta-modernism,
phenomenology, eco-systems theories, dialectical theories existentialism etc. So why only psychology, when each equally informs the other?

 

[tralala1]

Oh and last thing...she asked to see the pictures of Travis's dead body during interrogation. When she explained why she wanted to, it was bc of a "morbid curiosity".

Wonder if she was admiring what she did (can't imagine... Wow...)

If so, that is very narcissistic/antisocial

So suddenly tests don't make a diagnosis even though Dr. D. used the wrong test to diagnose her with borderline?

You are quoting Dr. Geffner, by the way, that is exactly what he said.

But, he also said, the tests will give you data points and you look for consistentancy and accuracy.

And, the MCMI said she has NO personality disorders and it is a test which also determines its own accuracy which was high in this case.

But, she also tested high for LOTS of problems in the area of anxiety.

She is not a borderline. She is not a psychopath. But she shows every evidence of high functioning autism, IMO.



"You will not apply my precept," he said, shaking his head. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? We know that he did not come through the door, the window, or the chimney. We also know that he could not have been concealed in the room, as there is no concealment possible. When, then, did he come?"
The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
Sherlock Holmes in The Sign of the Four (Doubleday p. 111)

Wow, I have never considered this, but it's a fascinating theory! I can see how she might be a highly functioning woman with Asperger's!

 

[SMK]

I have always been of the opinion that the crime was not intended to be such a brutal one - but maybe I'm all wet on that.

I had considered that she simply "wanted him gone" so that she could move on in life without being tormented by reports of his success or marriage - narcissistic a crime in itself. But I had presupposed something going awry, and the ensuing violence enacted out of fear only that he would run to the neighbors. Again, my entire premise could be wrong. If so, then she certainly was/is more sadistic and sociopathic than I had conjectured.

 

[molly333]

Wow, I have never considered this, but it's a fascinating theory! I can see how she might be a highly functioning woman with Asperger's!

High-Functioning Autism and Asperger's Syndrome

*snip*

Unlike people with other forms of autism, people with high-functioning autism or Asperger's syndrome want to be involved with others. They simply don't know how to go about it. They may not be able to understand others' emotions. They may not read facial expressions or body language well. As a result, they may be teased and often feel like social outcasts. The unwanted social isolation can lead to anxiety and depression.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/high-functioning-autism



Sound like Jodi in Mormonland?

 

[tralala1]

Poor, contrite Jodi! Now she says slaughtering Travis was a "mistake." But, hey, we all make mistakes, don't we? Especially if they land us in prison for life or the death chamber. But she can be such an enrichment to other women if she gets life in prison. She can do good deeds. She can feel good about herself! Her extreme narcissism knows no bounds.

What makes her so creepy to me and others is her emotional detachment. She cannot connect to others in a normal, emotional way. She may say the right words, but it's like hearing them from a robot. An empty robot. And it's hard to feel compassion for robots.

Now, I can really understand how someone like Travis could be fooled by her for so long. She said the right words and did the right things for the most part. But some of his friends quickly saw how "unreal" she really way. How creepy she acted. How she only existed in what I call "the Jodi universe".

However, I am still puzzled how someone who is so emotionally detached from others could have the emotion of rage so strong it would move her to commit such a horrible crime as she did to Travis.

Apparently, rage and jealousy are her only "real" emotions.

Very interesting idea! It's true that she's not really "void of emotion" because she was filled with rage and jealousy! Also, remember how her mother said, "Jodi would call me in the morning all happy, and then an hour later, she would call back crying hysterically about something and she wouldn't tell me what." So, can you just have negative emotions without having positive ones? Travis seemed to make her giddy when things were going well.

 

[Beaglemania]

Silly, broken, Darryl Brewer. He just doesn't know what we know. Plus, he's old, which in itself is pretty creepy.

Are there any actual clinicians posting on this thread? I was wondering if the next edition of the DSM will finally include Self-Absorbed Harlot Disorder (SAHD)?

Seems to me that too many women are not getting the treatment they need, and that an official diagnosis, with capital letters, would help to address this problem. Its inclusion may also, perhaps, help to reduce the stigma that the lower-case "harlot" still, after thousands of years, carries in our society.

BBM: I do not see any need to add yet more labels and categories to the DSM V. It takes years of both empirical and clinical research before new categories/subcategories of mental disorders are even remotely considered for inclusion in the DSM. I don't think there is a large enough sample.

Too many people, not just women, are not getting the treatment that they need.

What in the heck is a "lower-case harlot"??

 

[Emmi]

High-Functioning Autism and Asperger's Syndrome

*snip*

Unlike people with other forms of autism, people with high-functioning autism or Asperger's syndrome want to be involved with others. They simply don't know how to go about it. They may not be able to understand others' emotions. They may not read facial expressions or body language well. As a result, they may be teased and often feel like social outcasts. The unwanted social isolation can lead to anxiety and depression.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/high-functioning-autism



Sound like Jodi in Mormonland?

Molly, I really do see what you're seeing--possible Asperger's traits. It crossed my mind a few days after she took the stand. Her precision with words (despite the odd mistake or two) and her hyper-lexia, flat-affect, etc. I find her rather phlegmatic, rather than dramatic (though people seem to "see" all kind of drama in the court room, I don't). And, though Borderline Personality is in the dramatic cluster, I can't see why she couldn't have both high-functioning autistic and borderline traits. Borderline is marked by extreme, unmanaged emotional pain, and Asperger's is known for creating all kinds of secondary disorders (like depression and social anxiety), due to being consistently rejected and invalidated by family and peers.

 

[SMK]

High-Functioning Autism and Asperger's Syndrome

*snip*

Unlike people with other forms of autism, people with high-functioning autism or Asperger's syndrome want to be involved with others. They simply don't know how to go about it. They may not be able to understand others' emotions. They may not read facial expressions or body language well. As a result, they may be teased and often feel like social outcasts. The unwanted social isolation can lead to anxiety and depression.

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/high-functioning-autism



Sound like Jodi in Mormonland?

This is an interesting theory, and I have heard the same said about Amanda Knox. In females, autism is often very subtle and leaves the girl/woman very high-functioning, but with something missing in the realm of empathy. There is also a very unusual "theory of mind" that makes means/ends reasoning all off kilter. --- My sisters and I have often wondered if our mother might be an undiagnosed high-functioning Aspberger syndrome: She did well in college, etc., but is known for her "out of left field" comments, her bizarre interactions with others, and her maddening indifference to her own daughters' safety and well being when we were growing up.

 

[SMK]

Yes, her manner of speaking has some Aspberger-like qualities as well (Arias).
ETA: In the end, Aspberger syndrome is only describing a mix of high intelligence and lacking inter-personal relation proclivities: From what my son's doctor says, the neurology is complicated and one cannot make a blanket statement about those with the syndrome. There are differences.

 

[molly333]

Molly, I really do see what you're seeing--possible Asperger's traits. It crossed my mind a few days after she took the stand. Her precision with words (despite the odd mistake or two) and her hyper-lexia, flat-affect, etc. I find her rather phlegmatic, rather than dramatic (though people seem to "see" all kind of drama in the court room, I don't). And, though Borderline Personality is in the dramatic cluster, I can't see why she couldn't have both high-functioning autistic and borderline traits. Borderline is marked by extreme, unmanaged emotional pain, and Asperger's is known for creating all kinds of secondary disorders (like depression and social anxiety), due to being consistently rejected and invalidated by family and peers.

Regarding the borderline characteristics people are seeing, other things can mimic that. Women in abusive relationships, for instance, can look like borderlines. Or high stress situations over long periods of time where you are constantly being flooded by fight or flight neurochemicals.

*I think* if Jodi had married Daryl and knocked out a few kids, we would never have heard of her. Daryl was able to provide her with the consistent, supportive, and loving environment she needed for long periods of time--until he couldn't anymore because he had to start following his child around California.

Dr. G. pointed to the test scores that were off the charts in the anxiety issues and said, this looks like "a cry for help."

I think Jodi decided to try to swim with the big boys, leaving her comfort zone near the shore, and sank like a rock. She just couldn't handle anything that, for lack of a better word, socially complicated.

IMO

 

[slanda]

Oh no, not thinky! Now you know how I feel lol. The core aspects don't change, but your opposite or your shadow does. As we age we expect to strengthen our opposing sides, which for your development would be working
on the less strong ESTJ. It's quite fascinating because it gives you a window into our selves, and our strengths.
I need to take care of my ESFJ type, so very similar.
So,
1x INFP
1x INTP

We have three aspects in common!!
Anyone else?
I hope it's ok to put this here in the psych thread, because it is influential in how others see us.

I'm an ENTJ -- I think I was the first one who talked to you, Gecko.

 

[Gecko100]

Yes, her manner of speaking has some Aspberger-like qualities as well (Arias).
ETA: In the end, Aspberger syndrome is only describing a mix of high intelligence and lacking inter-personal relation proclivities: From what my son's doctor says, the neurology is complicated and one cannot make a blanket statement about those with the syndrome. There are differences.

Interestingly you could almost equate those qualities to some Jungian types.
The classic computer stereotype of 'nerd' would exhibit some of those qualities.
And they are the exactly same qualities as I posses but I am more tempered with age. Your average intp relates quite well to computers, but to be whole people they need to strengthen the weaker side, but JA is very young, and may only be partially developed in some some areas. I don't know what her type is, but she is definitely misunderstood behaviourally, so I could take some pot shots...

 

[Emmi]

BBM: I do not see any need to add yet more labels and categories to the DSM V. It takes years of both empirical and clinical research before new categories/subcategories of mental disorders are even remotely considered for inclusion in the DSM. I don't think there is a large enough sample.

Too many people, not just women, are not getting the treatment that they need.

What in the heck is a "lower-case harlot"??

I was jumping off your post, Beaglemania, about Darryl being "p-whipped" and Jodi being a sexually promiscuous woman (a "harlot"), to make a point that when we are discussing potential diagnoses for Arias, we should really try to avoid sexist double-standards and stereotypes. Because our own prejudices, about what is normal behaviour for men and women, may colour our perceptions of mental illnesses and disorders.

Sorry that I wasn't clear.

 

[Gecko100]

I'm an ENTJ -- I think I was the first one who talked to you, Gecko.

Thanks Slanda I think you were
ENTJ
INFP
ENFP
INTP
Any others?:seeya::seeya:

 

[shelley921]

Oh no, not thinky! Now you know how I feel lol. The core aspects don't change, but your opposite or your shadow does. As we age we expect to strengthen our opposing sides, which for your development would be working
on the less strong ESTJ. It's quite fascinating because it gives you a window into our selves, and our strengths.
I need to take care of my ESFJ type, so very similar.
So,
1x INFP
1x INTP

We have three aspects in common!!
Anyone else?
I hope it's ok to put this here in the psych thread, because it is influential in how others see us.

I took the test years ago in grad school and I was an INFP. I should take it again now.

 

[Gecko100]

I took the test years ago in grad school and I was an INFP. I should take it again now.

Well it won't have changed. What changes is the strength of your least employed side, the ESTJ. You will always be INFP, but you will move closer to the opposite as you age.
N types are currently out numbering
Well the N/p types clearly see different possibilities...and are experiencing a level of not quite ready to close off the decision making yet.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Took it,

Have no idea what it means???


Read everything on the website, agree with everything, including career (apparently I found my niche) . ....only exceptions : i don't concur with ...believing in dreams and spiritual seeking. Perhaps as a child but I am a long time atheist. I'm not enabler, I have fairly firm boundaries.. I'm not easily hurt & have pretty tough skin.

 

[SMK]

Interestingly you could almost equate those qualities to some Jungian types.
The classic computer stereotype of 'nerd' would exhibit some of those qualities.
And they are the exactly same qualities as I posses but I am more tempered with age. Your average intp relates quite well to computers, but to be whole people they need to strengthen the weaker side, but JA is very young, and may only be partially developed in some some areas. I don't know what her type is, but she is definitely misunderstood behaviourally, so I could take some pot shots...

Yes, at 30 , as Nietzsche says, one is a mere child....
Yes, the Jungian types of "introverted" etc. or the 'thinking versus feeling' or 'sensing versus intuition' theories do apply....I find them far more interesting than DSM definitions, but that is the type i am

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well it won't have changed. What changes is the strength of your least employed side, the ESTJ. You will always be INFP, but you will move closer to the opposite as you age.
N types are currently out numbering
Well the N/p types clearly see different possibilities...and are experiencing a level of not quite ready to close off the decision making yet.

Aren't I an "N" type?

I'm very closed off.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Yes, at 30 , as Nietzsche says, one is a mere child....
Yes, the Jungian types of "introverted" etc. or the 'thinking versus feeling' or 'sensing versus intuition' theories do apply....I find them far more interesting than DSM definitions, but that is the type i am

It's all new to me, I'm finding it very interesting....

I don't understand the difference between "sensing verses intuition" or the theory.