Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[2Hip2BSquare]

as far as her having some sexually Sadistic qualities, I believe she possibly could have in a very "fragmented" way.

I believe that she secretly love debasing and devaluing behavior. She likes the idea of defilement, which is very present in her sexual practices. She even says to Travis that she loves when he is debasing to her.

So could it be that Jodi secretly got off on knowing she was defiling Travis with sex? That she gets off on imagining the innocent being tainted, debased, defiled,

In this way I believe she did use sex to be literally sadistic, to engage in the carnal pleasure of sex out of fantasy of defiling purity/innocence. This would lead her to being less romantic during sex. she is incapable of romantic feelings during sex. Maybe she exerts her rage/anger through sex, since both are interconnected in the brain.

When she killed Travis it was the ultimate defilement of his innocence.

 

[Gecko100]

as far as her having some sexually Sadistic qualities, I believe she possibly could have in a very "fragmented" way.

I believe that she secretly love debasing and devaluing behavior. She likes the idea of defilement, which is very present in her sexual practices. She even says to Travis that she loves when he is debasing to her.

So could it be that Jodi secretly got off on knowing she was defiling Travis with sex? That she gets off on imagining the innocent being tainted, debased, defiled,

In this way I believe she did use sex to be literally sadistic, to engage in the carnal pleasure of sex out of fantasy of defiling purity/innocence. This would lead her to being less romantic during sex. she is incapable of romantic feelings during sex. Maybe she exerts her rage/anger through sex, since both are interconnected in the brain.

When she killed Travis it was the ultimate defilement of his innocence.

Where you think she learned self-debasement from? I can't see that being consistent with innate psychopathology.
Is is possible she had early experiences of debasement via sex, that's just as likely as anything else. She acts out that way
I have got a reasonably high IQ, but would fail a maths exam. lol
My thinking is very conceptual and theoretical, but I can't add or do those problems like 'If a train leaves one platform at' etc...
Practical skills are very baffling I have difficulty opening doors, haha.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Does anyone on here practice Systemic Family Therapy? Do you have any views on JA's family, or on Group analysis?
Thanks

Yes I do!

So glad you brought it up.

Jodi follows the theory of extreme displacement in my eyes, meaning that as the eldest she had many younger siblings that she may have resented for "taking her place" or displacing her importance in the eyes of her parents.

During displacement many children act out to regain attention, whether positive or negative.

The narcissistic sociopath hated this displacement - I mean Jodi must of hated this displacement bc it took her parents attention* off of her.

This may explain her abusive behavior toward her little brother, especially if she saw her brother had favoritism with being the only boy (bc this made him get more attention)

This might also explain her need to seek attention from people outside of her family and the eventual departure/runaway at 15 to be with Bobby Juarez who gave her that attention.

I have a feeling as a narcissist she required much more attention than her parents could provide. And as a sociopath she would do anything to get that attention. I'm glad her siblings are alive - all I can say!

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Where you think she learned self-debasement from? I can't see that being consistent with innate psychopathology.
Is is possible she had early experiences of debasement via sex, that's just as likely as anything else. She acts out that way

I believe she used sex probably very early in life to get attention, but it was consentual. I think her way of getting attention out of Bobby Juarez was to have sex with him when she was younger. She realized then that her sex/looks were her control/power/way to escape to a better life... To have control. And typically sadistic personalities get off on exacting control over others, specifically with sex IMOO.

 

[Nhic]

I read Hare's book a looong time ago.

Hare's book? :floorlaugh:

Dr. Robert Hare has written 11 books and more than 100 articles on the subject of psychopathy.

He is the creator of the psycopathy checklist, used by law enforcement worldwide today.

Hare's book? :floorlaugh:

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Geffner testified Wednesday that Arias psychological test results support a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder instead of a personality disorder.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/05/01/live-blog-will-last-witness-be-arias-lifeline

I never said I just read one book by Hare. Hare is the granddaddy of the study of psychopaths. He is like ALV to DV and Geffner to testing. These people are all the best in their fields and pioneers. I have great respect for Hare.

IMO

I guess I'd be feeling stress to a traumatic degree if I killed my boyfriend and were on trial for it, too.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

And don't worry Gecko, most people favor math or verbal and not both. Is very common. And being a woman who is pretty progressive, I can still say based on human pathology/psychological, it's common for women to have higher functioning verbal skills rather then math.

That said, I too am so deficient in math that it's a wonder I can count to 50. I feel your pain. Lol!

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Signing off for the night. Y'all take care of each other and be nice. Xoxo and ill brb to read posts tomorrow! Everyone here has such great psychological theories!

 

[Gecko100]

Yes I do!

So glad you brought it up.

Jodi follows the theory of extreme displacement in my eyes, meaning that as the eldest she had many younger siblings that she may have resented for "taking her place" or displacing her importance in the eyes of her parents.

During displacement many children act out to regain attention, whether positive or negative.

The narcissistic sociopath hated this displacement - I mean Jodi must of hated this displacement bc it took her parents attention* off of her.

This may explain her abusive behavior toward her little brother, especially if she saw her brother had favoritism with being the only boy (bc this made him get more attention)

This might also explain her need to seek attention from people outside of her family and the eventual departure/runaway at 15 to be with Bobby Juarez who gave her that attention.

I have a feeling as a narcissist she required much more attention than her parents could provide. And as a sociopath she would do anything to get that attention. I'm glad her siblings are alive - all I can say!

Oh goody!
I agree with you in part about her being a parental child, and I can see it very clearly happening in a family who ran a business with extended hours. She may have had way too much responsibility as a child and it would be very natural for her to be resentful, especially if it was never addressed.
From that standpoint as a child, her behaviour would therefore mimic her role models, - her parents.
It may have been contextually ok for her to hit her brother, we don't know anything about family rules, triangulations, parental authorities, disciplines, the gestalt, co-dependencies, alignments, co-alignments, parental cohesion, power world view or much at all really.
Not nearly enough for me anyway, to state anything with any certainty about what has happened in her life. The whole idea of any real analysis in this case is very superficial at best. I can't even say if anyone did a really thorough analysis of anything.
Circumstances do occur to individuals via systemic societal manipulations or familial manipulations. Those individuals who are affected by systemic societal damages or manipulations, rely on the protection of 'self' or ego to travel through life successfully. If that 'self' is damaged in any way by inappropriate parenting as surmised, how does that person learn to protect themselves, they have no role modelling for that?
But she managed it for nearly thirty years, without doing any great harm to anyone except her victim, which may contain other un-addressed qualities dynamics, and systemic abuses, I couldn't tell you.
I just know that as a woman and survivor, I could not threaten my humanity by imposing anything at this point, I just don't know nearly enough to make any kind of assessment. I find it troubling.
I believe they were both deeply wounded children, with very fragile ego's and buckets of superego's, bouncing with buckets of id's
Would you agree as a systemic therapist, that choices in partnership often reflect parental imprints?
I would love to do a genogram of both families just as a kick off...

 

[MeeBee]

I believe she used sex probably very early in life to get attention, but it was consentual. I think her way of getting attention out of Bobby Juarez was to have sex with him when she was younger. She realized then that her sex/looks were her control/power/way to escape to a better life... To have control. And typically sadistic personalities get off on exacting control over others, specifically with sex IMOO.

I think Jodi got off on being able to lead these good Mormon boys astray. It made her feel irresistible to be the one thing that took them off their moral paths. It probably did make her feel powerful, even though we have since learned that Travis had had sex before Jodi.

I think the debasing/pigtail/schoolgirl/being tied up/rape fantasy aren't actually her true fantasies but another way to make her irresistible. She probably thought that men finds these sorts of submissive behaviors sexy and that she was so willing and sexually eager made her different from any other woman. It made her feel special and alluring. From the sex tape and the texts, it sounded like Travis was catering to Jodi's whims instead of the other way around. Jodi says these things originated with him, but she is the one asking for generous facials, and asking to be spanked like a schoolgirl. She is the one that offers to find a tree for Travis. We never really hear Travis ask for these things, but we do see and hear him talk about them in an effort to arouse Jodi, to which she responds enthusiastically. Not that Travis didn't enjoy their sex play and play into it, but I just get this strong feeling that Jodi was the aggressor and introduced these fantasies into the relationship and Travis couldn't resist and started to pick up on the fantasy as well, which is only natural.

 

[ShadyLadySleuth]

Poor, contrite Jodi! Now she says slaughtering Travis was a "mistake." But, hey, we all make mistakes, don't we? Especially if they land us in prison for life or the death chamber. But she can be such an enrichment to other women if she gets life in prison. She can do good deeds. She can feel good about herself! Her extreme narcissism knows no bounds.

What makes her so creepy to me and others is her emotional detachment. She cannot connect to others in a normal, emotional way. She may say the right words, but it's like hearing them from a robot. An empty robot. And it's hard to feel compassion for robots.

Now, I can really understand how someone like Travis could be fooled by her for so long. She said the right words and did the right things for the most part. But some of his friends quickly saw how "unreal" she really way. How creepy she acted. How she only existed in what I call "the Jodi universe".

However, I am still puzzled how someone who is so emotionally detached from others could have the emotion of rage so strong it would move her to commit such a horrible crime as she did to Travis.

Apparently, rage and jealousy are her only "real" emotions.

 

[Gecko100]

Like I said, I know all about Hare.

But, Jodi scored very low on psychopath personality disorder on the tests she took, so that is pretty much ruled out for me.

Also, like the clinical psychiatrist in the article said she did not manifest these types of symptoms until recently, and this disorder shows up consistently from early adolescence and before--probably because it has to do with the faulty structure of the brain.

You know, things like burning things down, killing animals, bed wetting, and an array of other symptoms.

IMO

The scary triangle!
I'm not getting it either, and I have been exposed to a world of real ASPD's, sexually deviant murderers, and abusers, even female ones and I just don't see it.
Compared with a few I had recent contact with, she is a pussy cat...
Not even close to deviant enough.

 

[s_finch]

Poor, contrite Jodi! Now she says slaughtering Travis was a "mistake." But, hey, we all make mistakes, don't we? Especially if they land us in prison for life or the death chamber. But she can be such an enrichment to other women if she gets life in prison. She can do good deeds. She can feel good about herself! Her extreme narcissism knows no bounds.

What makes her so creepy to me and others is her emotional detachment. She cannot connect to others in a normal, emotional way. She may say the right words, but it's like hearing them from a robot. An empty robot. And it's hard to feel compassion for robots.

Now, I can really understand how someone like Travis could be fooled by her for so long. She said the right words and did the right things for the most part. But some of his friends quickly saw how "unreal" she really way. How creepy she acted. How she only existed in what I call "the Jodi universe".

However, I am still puzzled how someone who is so emotionally detached from others could have the emotion of rage so strong it would move her to commit such a horrible crime as she did to Travis.

Apparently, rage and jealousy are her only "real" emotions.

I agree with all you wrote. I wanted to add that I was reared in a home in which anger and jealousy were the only emotions expressed. Any acts of crying or wanting attention were met with scorn. I grew up feeling completely alone and with no sense of identity or attachment to anyone. However, the anger I was raised with was always just below the surface. IMHO it is possible to seem devoid of emotion but to have horrendous rage simmering. It's as if rage and anger is all you know and all other possible emotions only surface through anger. For most of my life I could not cry, absolutely could not. But I could throw a horrible rage fit. I feel this is where JA is at. In my case, through time, counseling and love from new people in my life and blessings from God I have been able to cultivate what lacked in my childhood and youth AND I realized that something was wrong with my emotions or lack of---I knew my intense anger wasn't normal. Either JA's PD is so extreme there is no help (plus she is in total denial) or the "help" was never there. I am not condoning her actions. I see a very sick human who murdered in a rage. Probably if it hadn't been TA, it would have been someone else later.

 

[Linda7NJ]

as far as her having some sexually Sadistic qualities, I believe she possibly could have in a very "fragmented" way.

I believe that she secretly love debasing and devaluing behavior. She likes the idea of defilement, which is very present in her sexual practices. She even says to Travis that she loves when he is debasing to her.

So could it be that Jodi secretly got off on knowing she was defiling Travis with sex? That she gets off on imagining the innocent being tainted, debased, defiled,

In this way I believe she did use sex to be literally sadistic, to engage in the carnal pleasure of sex out of fantasy of defiling purity/innocence. This would lead her to being less romantic during sex. she is incapable of romantic feelings during sex. Maybe she exerts her rage/anger through sex, since both are interconnected in the brain.

When she killed Travis it was the ultimate defilement of his innocence.

Wow, I think you're correct, I never looked at it that way before. It's certainly something to consider,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[molly333]

Hare's book? :floorlaugh:

Dr. Robert Hare has written 11 books and more than 100 articles on the subject of psychopathy.

He is the creator of the psycopathy checklist, used by law enforcement worldwide today.

Hare's book? :floorlaugh:

yeah that's funny isn't it?

sure wish I knew something.

 

[nursebeeme]

REMINDER: discuss the poll options. This is NOT the armchair psych thread. That was pulled for a reason and this thread is not going to become that one. Thanks folks.

 

[pinkie60]

Poor, contrite Jodi! Now she says slaughtering Travis was a "mistake." But, hey, we all make mistakes, don't we? Especially if they land us in prison for life or the death chamber. But she can be such an enrichment to other women if she gets life in prison. She can do good deeds. She can feel good about herself! Her extreme narcissism knows no bounds.

What makes her so creepy to me and others is her emotional detachment. She cannot connect to others in a normal, emotional way. She may say the right words, but it's like hearing them from a robot. An empty robot. And it's hard to feel compassion for robots.

Now, I can really understand how someone like Travis could be fooled by her for so long. She said the right words and did the right things for the most part. But some of his friends quickly saw how "unreal" she really way. How creepy she acted. How she only existed in what I call "the Jodi universe".

However, I am still puzzled how someone who is so emotionally detached from others could have the emotion of rage so strong it would move her to commit such a horrible crime as she did to Travis.

Apparently, rage and jealousy are her only "real" emotions.

I don't understand all that rage either. After listening to one of her interviews yesterday when she said she and travis were like oil and water. I suppose if asked she would say she just realized they were like oil and water after the murder. i get so confused. besides underlying rage, she must have had real resolve and intent to get the job done, and no inhibitions or conscience to tell her it was wrong.:banghead:

 

[SMK]

Oh goody!
I agree with you in part about her being a parental child, and I can see it very clearly happening in a family who ran a business with extended hours. She may have had way too much responsibility as a child and it would be very natural for her to be resentful, especially if it was never addressed.
From that standpoint as a child, her behaviour would therefore mimic her role models, - her parents.
It may have been contextually ok for her to hit her brother, we don't know anything about family rules, triangulations, parental authorities, disciplines, the gestalt, co-dependencies, alignments, co-alignments, parental cohesion, power world view or much at all really.
Not nearly enough for me anyway, to state anything with any certainty about what has happened in her life. The whole idea of any real analysis in this case is very superficial at best. I can't even say if anyone did a really thorough analysis of anything.
Circumstances do occur to individuals via systemic societal manipulations or familial manipulations. Those individuals who are affected by systemic societal damages or manipulations, rely on the protection of 'self' or ego to travel through life successfully. If that 'self' is damaged in any way by inappropriate parenting as surmised, how does that person learn to protect themselves, they have no role modelling for that?
But she managed it for nearly thirty years, without doing any great harm to anyone except her victim, which may contain other un-addressed qualities dynamics, and systemic abuses, I couldn't tell you.
I just know that as a woman and survivor, I could not threaten my humanity by imposing anything at this point, I just don't know nearly enough to make any kind of assessment. I find it troubling.
I believe they were both deeply wounded children, with very fragile ego's and buckets of superego's, bouncing with buckets of id's
Would you agree as a systemic therapist, that choices in partnership often reflect parental imprints?
I would love to do a genogram of both families just as a kick off...

I wholly agree with your entire assessment. And yes, relationship choices often reflect and mirror the dynamic one had with parents - and as Charlotte Bronte was able to note well before its time, the interaction with siblings as well....

 

[molly333]

"Before age 15 and continuing, a history of antisocial behavior: Here is the real problem with labeling Arias as a sociopath. This condition starts in the young teen years, if not before. It is a persistent and consistent behavior over the first three to four decades of the individual- some say for a lifetime. No one has come forward with any prior behavioral issues, legal issues, problems with work, family or friends. She was reportedly a very "good girl" in high school and very “normal”. At this time there are no known problems with previous boyfriends."

Firstly, she dropped out of school and moved to Oregon with her boyfriend at 15. So asserting people in school called her a "good girl" is completely false as she WAS NOT in school at that time.

Antisocial and Sociopath are completely different things!!!!

A sociopath can go years underdetected because although they lack understanding of human emotion, they are intelligent enough to function in society by creating different false personaes or masks.

Also if you are saying Sociopathy begins at early adolescence, wouldn't this be around the time she started trying to manipulate and grow pot and runaway with boys so she did not have to follow her parents rules? 14 or 15? Sounds like a teenager beginning to exhibit signs of a sociopath.

I'm sorry I just don't see where you are going with this.

You really should study about real time perception in people with schizotypal personality disorder types as well as learning disorders.

People with ADD, autism, and even schizophrenia have issues with real time comprehension of information. Most mental disorders (like autism) exist because the host cannot process information as quickly - so their attention spans are much shorter than the attention span of a person who is mentally present or "in reality".

So if Jodi is so quick witted and precise, prompt, and Present when answering our inquiries in our reality, I don't see her as having a mental disability.

And how does one receive a cumulative IQ of 119 but the verbal portion rates 130 or so as you also stated earlier? Math doesn't add up...

At any rate, 119 is an average IQ foR someone that claims to be as smart as Einstein (his IQ 160 probably higher)

I don't know or care what Jodi claimed with regards to her intelligence. She is as smart as the average lawyer in that courtroom--without the experience of course--but the average lawyer has an IQ of 120.

She has an outlier perfect score in the verbal range--making her a genius in verbal ability--so I feel she is able to mask her otherwise inability to read people and situations because she has no empathy.

The average autistic does not relate at all to people or only after years of intervention. They sit and stare and spin.

Something is wrong with Jodi--about that we can all agree. The psychologists who have looked at her and at her test scores have rejected ASPD. Dr. Geffner says her tests scores do not reveal any personality disorders. Instead, she shows high anxiety issues, low self esteem, passivity, low anger, a group of characteristics that are not consistent with a psychopath.

Psychopaths are the human predators of society. They are like great white sharks. They cruise the waters looking for victims. They have no empathy, only hunger and pathological envy. They do not feel fear. They would not have anxiety issues like Jodi--their brains are not wired that way.

Something else is going on with Jodi. If it's not a personality disorder, what is it?

IMO

 

[SMK]

Yeah, that's what I like to do, too: think about all the lovely things Jodi will never be able to do, or to have. Like puppies, rainbows, death chambers, and endless cups of hot chocolate, it just warms my heart.

:floorlaugh: ........... Right, its very therapeutic. One thing we ought to all be grateful to Ms. Arias for: She furnished a female , demonic witch for consumption, right at the time it was most badly needed: Post-Casey Anthony verdict.