Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

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What Psychological Disorder do you think Jodi may have?


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You think she's a psychopath, right? Or borderline?

Then how do you explain her test scores?

This is an evolving area of study, so more will be known about it in future years than is known now, obviously. It is a type of brain damage which cannot yet be easily measured. But, it can be behaviorally observed.

"rare form of autism"--you have to admit, Jodi is one of a kind.

IMO

Wel I'm Borderline and have an IQ of 135 and my verbal is considerably higher as I have a learning disabity and math deficiency.

Much like Jodi. Luckily I'm not a sociopath or psychopath so I don't kill people when I don't get my way/am abandoned. Aka I'm a highly functioning borderline, as she is not.
 
Validity scores are helpful and your right to a point.

However, if a person knows the symptoms of a particular desired diagnoses for example and remains consistent in their answers without going overboard the desired outcome can be achieved.

An example like...questions "are you truthful?"...sometimes, never, always.... and a person fills in the bubble for "always"....that shows the subject perhaps wants to present in a positive light and isn't being truthful. If the subject fills in the bubble "never" that would raise suspicions the subject again wasn't being honest and trying to manipulate the test.

But, remember, Jodi was given 4 tests, some of them twice, over a period of 2 years, by three different psychologists.

And, in the aggregate, they all say the same thing.

IMO
 
I read Hare's book a looong time ago.


Here's an article in psychology today by a clinical psychiatrist. He says Jodi Arias is not a Sociopath and explains why.



Is Jodi Arias a Sociopath?

Is Jodi Arias a battered woman, obsessive woman, a femme fatale or a sociopath?

Published on March 11, 2013 by Dale Archer, M.D. in Reading Between the (Head)Lines
*snip*


Before age 15 and continuing, a history of antisocial behavior: Here is the real problem with labeling Arias as a sociopath. This condition starts in the young teen years, if not before. It is a persistent and consistent behavior over the first three to four decades of the individual- some say for a lifetime. No one has come forward with any prior behavioral issues, legal issues, problems with work, family or friends. She was reportedly a very "good girl" in high school and very “normal”. At this time there are no known problems with previous boyfriends.

Jodi Arias, as you can see, fits the sociopath profile in many, many ways, except for the most important criteria. There is no past history. Based on this, unless there is much we do not know she does not technically meet the DSM IV criteria as a sociopath.

So, now the question is why did she do it? That's the million dollar question.




*snip*

Some experts claim she's a sociopath and it would be easy to bend the rules and say she is close enough to the diagnosis. She lied, disregarded everyone but herself, manipulated, conned, deceived, took a life and refuses to express remorse. But all this occurred after she met Alexander. There was nothing before that.



http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/reading-between-the-headlines/201303/is-jodi-arias-sociopath


IMO

I would disagree that there is not a pattern. Her pattern started well before she became involved with Travis. By age 14, she was growing pot at/in her parents home. Just because this is the first time her parents discovered this does not mean that it was her first time. Her parents even tried getting the Police Department involved to scare her. While not technically a legal issue at that time, it is still an issue with legal ramifications if it continues. She was described by a JR high/high school friend as being prone to be involved in drama or beign the victim. She dropped out high school and moved out of her home at about the same time. She has a long employment history with low income jobs, because she could not stay employed at any one for any legnth of time. With Travis was not first time she abruptly left work to confront an ex's/BF's new romantic interest. She admitted to violent outbursts, though it was directed toward inanimate objects, it was still a self admitted inability to control her anger. This doesn't even begin to discuss the escalation that occurred during her time with Travis.
 
I would disagree that there is not a pattern. Her pattern started well before she became involved with Travis. By age 14, she was growing pot at/in her parents home. Just because this is the first time her parents discovered this does not mean that it was her first time. Her parents even tried getting the Police Department involved to scare her. While not technically a legal issue at that time, it is still an issue with legal ramifications if it continues. She was described by a JR high/high school friend as being prone to be involved in drama or beign the victim. She dropped out high school and moved out of her home at about the same time. She has a long employment history with low income jobs, because she could not stay employed at any one for any legnth of time. With Travis was not first time she abruptly left work to confront an ex's/BF's new romantic interest. She admitted to violent outbursts, though it was directed toward inanimate objects, it was still a self admitted inability to control her anger. This doesn't even begin to discuss the escalation that occurred during her time with Travis.

And that is naming just the few things we know about so far...I'm sure that there's lots more that we may never even hear about!

moo
 
Does anyone believe her obvious paranoia of abandonment and such could indicate aspects of a paranoid personality disorder? could this disorder cause schizotypal qualities?

Aka, so paranoid Travis might leave her - she slits his tires

Aka, so paranoid Travis's friends will tear him from her she tries to eavesdrop on his meetings with his friends from outside the house

Her paranoid behavior wouldn't manifest unless triggered by her environment. If she were with a guy who often placated her, she would have less feelings of insecurity and thus would be less paranoid about betrayal/abandonment. But with Travis, she was insecure and bc of that began to become paranoid and act out in schizotypal ways...

?

For me personally, I think if she would have been administered those tests while she were In a similar relationship as she had with Travis - the tests would have completely different results.

Her environment is very impotant when testing her. When taking those tests, she is not in her same mind set she was in when with Travis. I almost feel like psych tests/disgnosis are only valid if they were administered at the time of the relationship. Imoo
 
And Gefner is full of it. He was cornered and held accountable for the multiple cases he was a hired gun in. JM pointed out even where judges had said is past trials that G had no credibility. If judges have deemed the man not credible, then so do I. So I assume his tests or what he chooses to expand upon on her tests are not credible.

That backfired on Martinez. It came out on recross that that Judge was overturned. Geffner was right.

IMO
 
Furthermore if anyone has any questions for me to try and understand the Borderline mind, I'll gladly tell you what it's like for me. I do feel some similar symptoms to Jodi such as self victimization and fear of abandonment, and I do get paranoid about my partners leaving me. Those are some reasons why I can identify with her.

Don't get me wrong! I'm nothing like her in the fact that my paranoia never makes me so mentally disjointed that I would kill. I have hit boyfriends before when mad, but just on the arm. Nothing to actually cause pain.

I've had issues with suicidal ideation. I thought these things bc I was tired of making the lives of my loved ones do difficult bc of my mental illness.

Just being honest here as a 28 yo female with BPD and a mid-high IQ like Jodi. I'm here if anyone wants to understand it all better from a personal perspective. Very good for therapeutically trying to understand "why" people do things.
 
That backfired on Martinez. It came out on recross that that Judge was overturned. Geffner was right.

IMO

Though Dr. Geffner has some pretty hefty credentials he also has some serious issues having been impeached in some court cases. Check it out:

1.* His background is impressive, he is the Founder and President of the Family Violence and Sexual Assault Institute in San Diego, California. He has been a researcher and consultant for 28 years and has presented over 450 key note speeches.

2.* Now the bad news- for him: (This info is from a comment made by ‘Nancy B’ on the ‘My Crime Time’ blog). Regarding the Case of Cyndie O’Rourke v. James O’Rourke the court found Dr. Geffner to be nothing more than a ‘hired gun’ for the Mother in this case. This was a divorce/custody case where the Father prevailed. Apparently the MMPI test found ‘maladaptive personality traits’ in the Mother and Dr. Geffner challenged the use of the MMPI test and even went on to recommend that the Mother file ethics complaints against the other mental health professionals in the case.He felt he was the expert and the others were out of their expertise.* (Nancy B. shares a link for info. on the ‘My Crime Time’ blog). This indicates to me he will most likely imply the MMPI test is not valid in this case and Dr. Demarte doesn’t have the credentials that he does and her opinion is therefore inadequate.

3.* Dr. Geffner testified that he no longer treats patients but devotes all his time to consulting work related to his specialty. He has been an expert witness in a number of cases in different jurisdictions. Though he has testified in a great number of cases he stated that he did not remember very much about the facts of those cases.

4. In a Texas case; Clark v. Collins, 956 F.2d 68 (5th Circuit 1992) the court found that Dr. Geffner’s affidavit lacked credibility, in part because it was based on hearsay information supplied by the defendant’s attorney with no independent verification. (Sound like any defense attorneys we know who believe everything their client says?)

5. The court also excluded the Dr.’s testimony in Hawaii v. French, 129 P.3d 581 (Hawaii 2006) involving allegations of child sexual abuse.

6. In State v. Supulvado, 655 So.2d 623 (La. App. 1995) the court limited most of his testimony as he relied mostly on the information supplied by the defendant and he testified about effects of brain damage on emotional functioning though he is not a medical doctor.

7. So I dug a little more and found this:

Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668, 687, 104 S.Ct. 2052, 2064, 80 L.Ed.2d 674 (1984). “[C]ounsel is strongly presumed to have rendered adequate assistance and made all significant decisions in the exercise of reasonable professional judgment. Id. at 690, 104 S.Ct. at 2066.

22 The state trial court found that Dr. Geffner’s affidavit lacked credibility for three reasons: (1) the evaluation, which makes conclusions as to Clark’s conduct in 1987, was conducted five years later, in 1992; (2) Dr. Geffner did not review the court records or a transcript of the trial testimony; and (3) Dr. Geffner relied upon records from Clark’s childhood in Pennsylvania, with no records since 1976, and upon hearsay information supplied by Clark’s attorneys, with no independent verification of the information, and interviews with Clark. The state court further found that, even if credible, Dr. Geffner’s affidavit does not support a conclusion that Clark was either incompetent or insane at the time of the murders, or that he did not act deliberately within the meaning of the first special issue.

8. Oh, and did I mention he was an editor for Alyce LaViolette?

Should be a field day for Mr. Martinez!

http://mixedbagblog.com/2013/04/26/whats-wrong-with-dr-geffner/
 
Wouldn't it be possible to beat the test? Wouldn't a psychopath/sociopath be able to test within a normal range? Maybe someone else could explain it better. Wasn't there an issue with Samuels and the PTSD test results?

Yes, it is possible to fool psychological tests, regardless of the built-in Validity scales. I will provide more information when time allows.
 
Furthermore if anyone has any questions for me to try and understand the Borderline mind, I'll gladly tell you what it's like for me. I do feel some similar symptoms to Jodi such as self victimization and fear of abandonment, and I do get paranoid about my partners leaving me. Those are some reasons why I can identify with her.

Don't get me wrong! I'm nothing like her in the fact that my paranoia never makes me so mentally disjointed that I would kill. I have hit boyfriends before when mad, but just on the arm. Nothing to actually cause pain.

I've had issues with suicidal ideation. I thought these things bc I was tired of making the lives of my loved ones do difficult bc of my mental illness.

Just being honest here as a 28 yo female with BPD and a mid-high IQ like Jodi. I'm here if anyone wants to understand it all better from a personal perspective. Very good for therapeutically trying to understand "why" people do things.

Also, I identify with Jodi and her interests. I am a photographer, painter, and musician. At 8 years old I was playing classical piano with kids from Juliard. I looooooooved piano.

I was very quiet as a child and peaceful. My first friend I remember making in the 1st grade was more extroverted and when I wanted to be her friend apparently I said to her "teach me how to be funny like you!". I was introverted as a child and now waver in adulthood between introvert and extrovert.

My parents never really paid attention to me in a tangible way... In the way of saying I love you often or giving hugs. In fact my mother was somewhat aloof. One instance my hair was tangled and I remember her trying to brush it and crying and then she got out the scissors and *snip* there goes my hair! I know she loves me and she's a great mother, but there's some disconnect with reality. She's too calm. And then you'll see this emotional/depressed side come out that is just so different - that waif like characteristic.

I was a parents dream up until 6th grade when I started having some issues at school. I began to fit in with the outcasts because I was more introverted. Also I had domestic issues at home and this didn't feel like other kids and their families.

By 8th grade I began to fail every single class and cut class. One day I skipped Spanish to hang out in the locker room and gossip/get out if uniform with some other "misfit girls". The principle had an inkling where we were and someone tipped us off, so everyone panicked. I ran outside the school building, hid in the parking lot, and called my mom and told her to vouch for me and say that she picked me up bc I was having menstrual pains and I forgot to sign out. She did it and i got out of that situation. A sick part of me is always able to make excuses and manipulate. Luckily I'm high functioning and have corrected the majority of this behavior through therapy.

Borderlines always have excuses. We live by them. They are our escape route.

Gotta work more to come!
 
I disagree regarding Dr. Geffner. He knows how to interpret those tests. He helped develop them. Dr. D was 3 years out of school compared to Dr. G's 30 years experience.

As far as the article is concerned, it shows why people might think she is a sociopath and why the known data about her says she isn't. I thought it was instructive and interesting, which was all it was meant to be.

IMO

On more than on occassion, Dr. G's opinion has been deemed unusable by a court for the very things he did in this trial: offering an opinion about an individual without having any interaction with that person. He also testified to things he is not qualified to testify about.
 
Also, I identify with Jodi and her interests. I am a photographer, painter, and musician. At 8 years old I was playing classical piano with kids from Juliard. I looooooooved piano.

I was very quiet as a child and peaceful. My first friend I remember making in the 1st grade was more extroverted and when I wanted to be her friend apparently I said to her "teach me how to be funny like you!". I was introverted as a child and now waver in adulthood between introvert and extrovert.

My parents never really paid attention to me in a tangible way... In the way of saying I love you often or giving hugs. In fact my mother was somewhat aloof. One instance my hair was tangled and I remember her trying to brush it and crying and then she got out the scissors and *snip* there goes my hair! I know she loves me and she's a great mother, but there's some disconnect with reality. She's too calm. And then you'll see this emotional/depressed side come out that is just so different - that waif like characteristic.

I was a parents dream up until 6th grade when I started having some issues at school. I began to fit in with the outcasts because I was more introverted. Also I had domestic issues at home and this didn't feel like other kids and their families.

By 8th grade I began to fail every single class and cut class. One day I skipped Spanish to hang out in the locker room and gossip/get out if uniform with some other "misfit girls". The principle had an inkling where we were and someone tipped us off, so everyone panicked. I ran outside the school building, hid in the parking lot, and called my mom and told her to vouch for me and say that she picked me up bc I was having menstrual pains and I forgot to sign out. She did it and i got out of that situation. A sick part of me is always able to make excuses and manipulate. Luckily I'm high functioning and have corrected the majority of this behavior through therapy.

Borderlines always have excuses. We live by them. They are our escape route.

Gotta work more to come!

Interesting and thanks for sharing. So your parents never paid enough attention to you and your mother was somewhat aloof? What about your father ? How did you come to seek treatment? Was it your idea? If you could change anything about your childhood what would it be? More loving, tangible attention from your parents ?
 
I am still seriously puzzled by anyone who claims to be a clinician, ignoring all the facts including relationship dynamics. How can it be possible to ignore a whole side of issues that may have contributed to her behaviour?
It's unjust and unfair, and makes no sense to me at all.
 
Not one of the 6 or 7 professionals who looked at her and/or her test scores called her a sociopath. NOT ONE.

Don't you think the young Dr. D. would have called her a sociopath if she could? She would have jumped at the diagnosis with both feet. She didn't because she couldn't.

Normal--Normal--Normal--that's what her test scores said, except on issues of anxiety where they were off the charts.

IMO

You discount or over-look the fact that at least 2 of the professionals you refer to, provided her with resources that would enable her to manipulate these tests. I believe that Dr. D commented on her belief that Jodi was trying to manipulate the tests.
 
Not one of the 6 or 7 professionals who looked at her and/or her test scores called her a sociopath. NOT ONE.

Don't you think the young Dr. D. would have called her a sociopath if she could? She would have jumped at the diagnosis with both feet. She didn't because she couldn't.

Normal--Normal--Normal--that's what her test scores said, except on issues of anxiety where they were off the charts.

IMO

One can argue until they are blue in the face about evidence and indications that Arias may not be sociopathic.

But, here, everything that Jodi has done or does, from fighting with her mother, to wiping a tear from her chin, is evidence of sinister pathology. Because she is a sociopath.

Tests and opinions that show her to be a complete fake and a liar are confirmation. Because she is a sociopath.

Tests, validity scales and opinions that show very different mental health problems have been faked. Because that's what sociopaths do.

Witnesses who have good things to say about her, who have known her for years, are broken individuals or under her witchy spell. They just don't realize that she's a sociopath.

Witnesses who recognized her "soulless eyes," even after knowing her for as little as 10 minutes, are enlightened and whole. They know she's a sociopath.

And on and on. It's predetermined.

But, I admire your tenacity, Molly!
 
Interesting and thanks for sharing. So your parents never paid enough attention to you and your mother was somewhat aloof?

What about your father ?

How did you come to seek treatment?

Was it your idea?

If you could change anything about your childhood what would it be?

More loving, tangible attention from your parents ?

Sorry I just needed to seperate your questions above to answer them directly. Hope you don't mind!


Interesting and thanks for sharing. So your parents never paid enough attention to you and your mother was somewhat aloof?

My mother had issues with drinking to deal with her problems. She was not very social and was always home and cleaning and cooking, but she wasn't really emotionally available. I believe she was so busy trying to deal with my father that she didn't have The time to nurture my siblings and myself. I remener asking for a pet when i was 13 and was incessant - she was driving and had no affect on her face as i asked. Out of nowhere she reached ober and slapled my face hard from the drivers seat. I am the youngest of 3 and a female. 2 older brothers and me. I had an oldest half sister who was estranged from my ages of 4 to 12. She and my father were at odds during that period when she was 15yo to 24yo and during that time she had a child.

My dad was very affectionate with me one minute as a child and then neglectful the next. My family psych growing up told me he was BiPolar and I can see how. His mother is Histrionic PD. my father until this very day will not submit to the idea the he is bipolar. He is a successful entrepreneur and people love him. He is a lovey bear deep down and is so very sensitive. I often wonder if he is a male version of borderline as he has the same emotional aspects. Luckily because I accept the nature of my mental illness, I can connect with him on our similar issues without directly relating it to being BPD. He had drug issues.


What about your father ?
He was present and adoring from my birth until about 12 years old, although I've been told he actually began checking out when I was around 6 years old and I developed false memories/denial during the years of 6-12 and don't remember it. He was a military man and extremely controlling.

From ages 12-16 i remeber He was physically abusive upon everyone except me and I'm convinced it was because I was the youngest and the only female of 3 siblings. And maybe because no matter what excuses he told the police, they would never believe he had defend himself physically from a little girl. Sure from one of his strapping sons... Sometime around that age my brother and I also resuscitated him from an overdose of some sort. He was on so many drugs God only knows. We had to perform CPR.

From 16-18 he was completely absent and on a drug binge. I didn't know day one day to the next whether he'd be dead or alive. At that point I didn't care bc the few times he did contact me over those years via phone he was emotionally and verbally abusive to the point that I had to unplug my phone from the wall to avoid the incessant abusive calls. During this time I really cared emotionally for my mother.

Now that he is older, drug free, and his hormone levels have decreased, he is agreeable and only has bits of mania where I can't just get him to sit down! Haha. He and I rebuilt our relationship and I have forgiven him. It is hard for me to write of his past transgressions because they are nothing like the person he is now. He began this positive metamorphosis when I was 19. Through drug drug rehab and spiritual/church counseling he has done a 360 IMO.

I WAS COMPLETELY DRUG AND SUbStANCE FReE during all of this. The only person in my family. Furthermore I'm the only person in my family who hasn't had to seek rehabilitation for substance abuse and the only person that has not been in jail/prison.

How did you come to seek treatment?
I think being the youngest in my family of 4 (including my half sister), I'd be considered by family psychs via birth order "the lost child". I often felt left out of the drama and this became more of a spectator of it. Therefore I think I was able to observe from an early age, from outside of the eye of the tornado, the true carnage that mental illness and drug abuse can cause.

People in my family used substances to escape the reality, and I didn't. So I believe I had a more logical perspective of my environment.

For some reason my family members who have mental illness cannot accept it, which is the common problem unfortunately with people who are mentally Ill. Some part of me feels like its related to narcissism, that inability to accept your malfunctions in orde to have more meaningful and honest relationships with others.

I also had low self esteem so I think I was more likely to accept my mental illness. I often speak with my family openly about my BPD in hopes that if they see I have the courage to own it, they can too. Of course if I told them upfront that I believe they too are BPD or any other disorder, missiles will fly!

I sought treatment because I began to see significant warning signs of BPD in myself and I did not want to subject others to the same pain I and people I love were subjected to as a result of the disease. It rely is about taking down your pride and owning your faults to better the lives of not just yourself, but others.

Was it your idea?

My mother had me in psych offices as soon as the issues at home became significant. That's why I love my mother so much. So the idea of seeking professional help as my illness began to progress wasn't taboo for me. The same goes for my siblings, although they are less likely to accept the idea that they might be mentally Ill. They usually went to get meds for depression and not actually counsel. I preferred to do counseling and medication. I also was very proactive in communicating w my doc.

If you could change anything about your childhood what would it be?

More structure and discipline. Parents that were better examples. More understanding adult mentors. More social interaction between my parents and my peers parents. More interaction with my parents and my school. My parents were like a highschool couple - in love one day and wanting to break up the next. They didn't care of their children smoke or drank (my brothers took advantage of that while I couldn't stomach the idea).

My only best friend in middle school had an abusive family as well do even when she and I would run away to each others houses to escape, we would experience the other persons domestic abuse issues. It got to the point with this best friend, as she was the oldest child, that I would only stay at her house bc she was scared to leave in fear her father would kill/brutally beat one of her family members. She now tells me her father was diagnosed Bipolar. I knew that if I stayed at her home with her, I could avoid the abuse in my own home as well as ensure she and her family would be safe. Her mother and siblings meant a lot to me and her mother was more emotionally available than mine. I had emotional investment in those sweet people. I also knew if I stated at her house her father would not abuse them as harshly in fear that I would tattle on him.



More loving, tangible attention from your parents ?

Definitely. I feel like I'm much less self involved then they are. My mother is sweet and soft spoken and allows herself to be pushed around. I didn't like this example of femininity growing up. My dad was domineering, charismatic, evil and good all rolled into one, so I had to walk on eggshells not knowing what mood he would be in at any given time. Caused much anxiety for me. So now I still have issues being around him bc I get extreme anxiety and PTSD despite the fact that he is pretty much in remission now.
 
Linda7NJ: you have post a few times of your atheist viewpoint and you have that right. When you speak of your "concrete logical thinking" being the source of truth. It implies that those of us that are spiritual are" not logical or concrete in thinking". Your mind is not superior to those that identify with the concept metaphysical duality. Spirituality is a broad term. To dismiss it in all forms is IMO is not "concrete logical thinking".
 
That backfired on Martinez. It came out on recross that that Judge was overturned. Geffner was right.

IMO

BBM: Yea, it backfired alright :floorlaugh: Look at the predicament that poor, little, misunderstood Jodi finds herself in today. What backfired is the entire defense strategy. It was an Epic Fail.
 
I am still seriously puzzled by anyone who claims to be a clinician, ignoring all the facts including relationship dynamics. How can it be possible to ignore a whole side of issues that may have contributed to her behaviour?
It's unjust and unfair, and makes no sense to me at all.

Sounds like a question you should ask ALV


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I am still seriously puzzled by anyone who claims to be a clinician, ignoring all the facts including relationship dynamics. How can it be possible to ignore a whole side of issues that may have contributed to her behaviour?
It's unjust and unfair, and makes no sense to me at all.
I would agree: If you are going to go on all the empirical data, then that data must also enter in. Otherwise, it is piecemeal and bias: Does not seem clinically sound to me. How can one use deduction and inference if part of the picture is missing?
 
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