Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[SMK]

I think Narcissistic PD can be inherited (nature) or developed as a result of environment ( nurture).

I think the important factor is if a person is born a narcissist, they are born without the empathy for others and the constant want for attention.


If they develop narcissist PD it could be a result of a lack of attention and empathy lavished upon one in youth by parents/peers. But I couldn't imagine this being the case with Jodi as it seems she didn't go through extreme and grave neglect.


Psychs consider essentially all PD's can be created by either nature or nurture OR a combination of both nature and nurture simultaneously.

I do not think extreme and grave neglect is necessary; I would agree with OEJ that an undervaluing/overvaluing of the child; subtle neglect; narcissism in the parents, etc. is more than enough....

 

[SMK]

The family dynamics are very similar to Cindy and Casey Anthony..... get the husband out of the way if he is the disciplinarian. Divide and conquer..

Bingo!

 

[human]

What kind of mother laughs at a DP trial?

 

[OEJ]

I know. It's like the Salem Witch Trials on steroids. Everything about the 21st Century is bigger and better as we march towards the extinguishing of our light as the once hallowed city upon a hill. These things have to happen, I guess, in the latter days.

But, I did note, when studying the Salem witch trials, that while most were indulging in hysteria, a select few were engaged in perhaps the real reason behind the trials, a transfer of money, power, and property. The same is undoubtedly true today.

It's not Jodi's sickness we should be concerned about, so much as our own.

IMO

I think it's called the Hegelian Dialectic.

 

[SMK]

Agree with molly and OEJ: There is a shift and it is following the Hegelian dialectic of history.....

 

[SMK]

What kind of mother laughs at a DP trial?

A very strange and disconnected one.....what else did she laugh at, one wonders?

 

[passionflower]

I believe she is an:

Anti-Social Personality with Psychopathy.
With possibly a comorbidity of Borderline/Histrionic.

and so narcistic............wish we could vote for several, she is one very ODD Bird, but sane!

 

[Linda7NJ]

Bravo, well said.:clap::clap: One of the most difficult things to accept, as Alice Miller said, is the idea that parents can be malevolent. It goes against a deeply rooted idea that to not "honor thy mother and father" is a mortal sin.

This idea that Jodi was born a monster, and that her poor family grew weary of dealing with the beast, is making a HUGE leap, jumping to a massive conclusion without sufficient evidence, and assuming that this rare, rare case of the ogre who is "born that way" is a better explanation than that it was her parents' fault, which is FAR more common and far more likely.

I have a sister who is very much like Jodi (but has not killed----done plenty of crazy things, though). She was not born a monster, but was ignored as were her siblings, witnessed extreme parental fighting, etc. I always see my parents' sins reflected in her behavior.

IMO there is a HUGE difference when considering one planned and carried out a slaughter of another human being.




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[Linda7NJ]

Brain chemistry/wiring can be a secondary effect, and not a primary cause, of sociopathology. Brain chemistry/wiring can be effected by trauma. Fighting and dysfunctional behavior gets passed down through the generations. Brain science is just a bias: It assumes far too much in its "born that way" premise. Even if a child is badly wired, parental love and care would still make them turn out far better.....

Better?

What about her donating her hair? Raising money for domestic violence shelters? Being so generous & popular and sharing the money on her book with other inmates? That's certainly pretty special

Roflmao!
Thud... Sorry..... I crack me up.

Roflmao!


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[aeneas1]

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... the ja case reminds me a lot of the betty broderick case, two rejected women that chose murder to even the score.

 

[Linda7NJ]

What kind of mother laughs at a DP trial?

I know for sure I use twisted humor during times of extreme emotional distress. I'm quite sure I looked wildly inappropriate in other people's eyes during times of crisis. I would rather find something to laugh at than break down crying.

I won't pretend to know Jodi's mother.

Just throwing out my own opinion on her laughing with her TWIN.


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[2Hip2BSquare]

Hi guys! Love coming here and reading everything you have to say. Very smart, very insightful... I've been wonderidng about something, and would like to see if any of you have any thoughts on it.
Most of us believe ja calculates everything she does and says carefully. With that said I've noticed she uses the word "betrayed" quite often. I felt betrayed by my mom, the jurors betrayed her, her former cheating bfs, etc. Pretty much everyone. Why that specific word, and what disorder or idea is she trying to sell us? I'm sure it's something she read, and believes it will benefit her somehow. Is she trying to portray someone with abandonment issues? Imo, all these betrayals are outright lies, something she conjured up, so there's something calculated behind it. Always is...

Borderline PDs are most likely to be associated with the word "betrayal" from what I've read - but then again I'm not dr. Scholarly!

Here is an article about the borderline PDs perception of betrayal, specific from caregivers, and how they deal with that betrayal. This also discusses borderline dissociation and coping mechanisms. I think you'll enjoy this read!

http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/~jjf/articles/kfborderline2009.pdf

 

[SMK]

Borderline PDs are most likely to be associated with the word "betrayal" from what I've read - but then again I'm not dr. Scholarly!

Here is an article about the borderline PDs perception of betrayal, specific from caregivers, and how they deal with that betrayal. This also discusses borderline dissociation and coping mechanisms. I think you'll enjoy this read!

http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/~jjf/articles/kfborderline2009.pdf

thanks for posting this; I have downloaded the PDF file to read later. I do see emotional abuse is listed as the greatest indicator for later dissociative states....

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I don't think he or anyone else knew immediately how damaged she was when they first met.

I've dated men who appear to be something they're not. Id get together & start dating because there is a mutual attraction, id stay together long enough to know each other better. If something came up like I discovered they were a liar, drank too much, manipulative.. I broke up with the person. Once I had one that just didn't accept no & goodbye for an answer ... That was a little hairy for a bit. That one pushed me to my limit. The sex was great and a few times I gave in after I knew it was over.

I found myself screaming at him at the top of my lungs as I hurled his belongings at him from my front step. He also was in the habit of leaving stuff behind for an excuse to keep coming back.




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This is do personal and uniquely ENFJ

Ya know, I'm Borderline and went through all the spectrums of abuse in my past. Today i had to break things off with my fiancée because he didn't come home last night (another evening of him drunk and coming home late). I had to get over my BPD bull and realize I am enabling his illness if I allow him back into my home simply bc I'm dependent and lacked affection growing up.

But notice, despite any jealousy or anger or sadness I might have - I wouldn't murder him. I hope he does well in his life and gets better.

Now if I were a Psychopathic (ASPD) with Borderline , I wouldn't be able to recognize his need for help beyond my own selfish need for his affection/presence.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

thanks for posting this; I have downloaded the PDF file to read later. I do see emotional abuse is listed as the greatest indicator for later dissociative states....

Dude (California girl here)... It's rad. Check it out!

 

[Linda7NJ]

This is do personal and uniquely ENFJ

Ya know, I'm Borderline and went through all the spectrums of abuse in my past. Today i had to break things off with my fiancée because he didn't come home last night (another evening of him drunk and coming home late). I had to get over my BPD bull and realize I am enabling his illness if I allow him back into my home simply bc I'm dependent and lacked affection growing up.

But notice, despite any jealousy or anger or sadness I might have - I wouldn't murder him. I hope he does well in his life and gets better.

Now if I were a Psychopathic (ASPD) with Borderline , I wouldn't be able to recognize his need for help beyond my own selfish need for his affection/presence.

Good for you! I'm glad ya kicked him to the curb! You deserve so much better!




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[2Hip2BSquare]

Why the jurors might have thought emotional abuse was significant w Jodi given her BPD diagnosis by the state.

"Severe dissociation is one of the diagnostic criteria for BPD and has been suggested to be one of the key, distinguishing components of BPD (Skodol et al., 2002; Wildgoose, Waller, Clarke, & Reid, 2000; Zweig-Frank, Paris, & Guzder, 1994). Yet, how dissociation relates to trauma in those diagnosed with BPD is unclear. Zweig- Frank and colleagues did not find an association between childhood trauma and dissociation in men and women diagnosed with BPD. A later study using a sample of male patients and prison- ers (Timmerman & Emmelkamp, 2001) also corroborates the previous finding that childhood trauma and dissociation in BPD are not related. However, in a different study, total childhood trauma was not significantly associated with dissociation, although emotional neglect was (Simeon, Nelson, Elias, Greenberg, & Hol- lander, 2003). Furthermore, one study identified four risk factors for dissociation in BPD pa- tients: “inconsistent treatment by a caretaker, sexual abuse by a caretaker, witnessing sexual violence as a child, and adult rape history” (Zanarini, Ruser, Frankenburg, Hennen, & Gunderson, 2000, p. 26). A study by Watson, Chilton, Fairchild, and Whewell (2006) did not find a significant correlation between dissocia- tion and sexual abuse, but did find associations with physical abuse and emotional neglect, with emotional abuse as the strongest predictor of dissociation. Furthermore, there was a positive correlation between severity of trauma and lev- els of dissociation. The authors of this study suggest “rather than being an intrinsic compo- nent of BPD, dissociation and BPD may share childhood trauma as an etiological factor” (p. 480). BTT would propose the dissociation seen in BPD is a defense mechanism against child- hood trauma to prevent dangerous information from entering consciousness. This theory posits the degree of the betrayal associated with the childhood trauma influences the encoding, sub- sequent accessibility to awareness, and respon- ses to the event (Freyd, 1996)."

http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/~jjf/articles/kfborderline2009.pdf

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

She may have been born that way indeed.
The most recent brain flouroscopy studies in BPD's for instance (and I believe LindaNJ has cited in Psychopath/Sociopath's too via Dr. Hare studies) shows a disconnect in the neurological wiring and responses between the amygdala and the frontal cortex. To simplify the results: the amygdala over-responds to stimuli and the cortex under-responds and is flat. This is a completely genetic, born-this-way fault.

And then of course, there are many empirical studies that show people with a personality disorder (and some mood disorders) have a greater number of first generation relatives with the same thing----in other words, namely their parents.

While I don't believe that it is all nature, I would never say it is all nurture either.

MOO.....your mileage and research may vary.

I do not agree that BPD is a complete "born this way fault". Sure a person can be born with those abnormalities, but those abnormalities can also develop on a person born with a "healthy functioning" brain. every time you think a thought, It pulses electricity across your brain. Whenever you think that thought or access that area of the brain, you literally begin to change the chemistry/formation of that area. This happens in developmental years primarily. So that abnormality can be developed, not just genetically predisposed.

There are 3 theories of BPD development (all 3 are right)

It is nature, nurture, or fate. Im on the fate spectrum. My BPD exists bc I had to utilize coping mechanisms during abuse in childhood that developer BPD traits for coping now later in my life.

Ther are people born "wired as BPD" maybe... As evident by their relatives also having BPD. Then again, domestic abuse is generational so what may seem like a "born with" generational disorder may be a set of learned coping strategies family members used while enduring abuse as well.

Really it all is dependent upon the individual and their background of abuse. If they had BPD symptoms without abuse of any sort, this would interest me as I rarely ever hear of a BPD that did not experience abuse. I'm sure they are out there however - BPD people with the genetic predisposition.

I think Jodi had BPD from both nature and nurture, but primarily nature. That's IMHO.

 

[SMK]

I do not agree that BPD is a complete "born this way fault".

There are 3 theories of BPD development (all 3 are right)

It is nature, nurture, or fate. Im on the fate spectrum. My BPD exists bc I had to utilize coping mechanisms during abuse in childhood that developer BPD traits for coping now later in my life.

Ther are people born "wired as BPD" maybe... As evident by their relatives also having BPD. Then again, domestic abuse is generational so what may seem like a "born with" generational disorder may be a set of learned coping strategies family members used while enduring abuse as well.

Really it all is dependent upon the individual and their background of abuse. If they had BPD symptoms without abuse of any sort, this would interest me as I rarely ever hear of a BPD that did not experience abuse. I'm sure they are out there however - BPD people with the genetic predisposition.

I think Jodi had BPD from both nature and nurture, but primarily nature. That's IMHO.

Bolded says it all.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do not agree that BPD is a complete "born this way fault".

There are 3 theories of BPD development (all 3 are right)

It is nature, nurture, or fate. Im on the fate spectrum. My BPD exists bc I had to utilize coping mechanisms during abuse in childhood that developer BPD traits for coping now later in my life.

Ther are people born "wired as BPD" maybe... As evident by their relatives also having BPD. Then again, domestic abuse is generational so what may seem like a "born with" generational disorder may be a set of learned coping strategies family members used while enduring abuse as well.

Really it all is dependent upon the individual and their background of abuse. If they had BPD symptoms without abuse of any sort, this would interest me as I rarely ever hear of a BPD that did not experience abuse. I'm sure they are out there however - BPD people with the genetic predisposition.

I think Jodi had BPD from both nature and nurture, but primarily nature. That's IMHO.

I think she's a psychopath.... I think she was born defective. Had she been born an only child with well equipped, on the same page parents she may have faired better. Although, I doubt it.
I believe if we actually had a complete picture of her earlier years... She'd meet the criteria for ASPD.
It's my opinion the BPD was the best Dr. DeMarte could do with the information she had.


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