Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[Warwick7]

I am just catching up with all the latest news but I think Shannon could have been a victim of RH.
I mean, I can't throw him out of the mixture of being her murderer.
Someone murdered her.
It was not an accident, IMO

"The Gilberts hired a private pathologist. That autopsy revealed Shannan died of strangulation or asphyxiation, which Shannan's sister claims is consistent with the four other girls found dead at Gilgo.May 17, 2022"

I know this is older article, but like I sai¹d, I'm trying to catch up and may be totally off track, but we just don't know. UGH..

Shannan Gilbert's family speaks out: "Something happened to her that night. She ran for her life. She was in fear"

Gilbert's disappearance led to the discovery of ten bodies along Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach, Long Island.

www.cbsnews.com

I know.....
I'm not sure which way to think.

 

[Warwick7]

This is such an excellent write-up—thank you for sharing your thoughts. I never understood why he was using her real name... That stands out to me because, like you said, it goes against the "rules" of escorting. So I can understand why she would immediately feel as if she was "set up" for something.

BBM
Small tidbits come out now consta ntly.
Just taking the time to listen to SG she, herself tells us a great deal. An analysis of her statements tell us alot.

 

[Warwick7]

"Ray entered the marsh at the same location, which he said was difficult to bypass, 'but you can get in."

"On 'either side of the marsh, there were escape routes easily found,' Ray continued."

'It would be absurd to say somebody got lost in the marsh and died because they couldn't get out,' he said, explaining that when walking in the marsh, 'the loam you walked on was damp and sometimes had a little water that would come up over, say the tip of your boot."

"And that was about it, it wasn't deep at all,' Ray said."

"Even if she fell into the canals, they weren't deep,' he said. 'They're like not even waist deep — they'd come up to your thighs for an average person."

Shannan Gilbert's family lawyer maintains she was murdered

A lawyer representing the family of Shannan Gilbert claims she was strangled to death like the Gilgo Four, whose bodies were found wrapped up in burlap sacks on Gilgo Beach.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[agreen36]

We will probably never know exactly what happened to Shannan. If it was an accident, she was alone in her final minutes and isn't here to tell us about it. If it was foul play if was most likely committed by one of the sketchy characters she was with that night and they are not going to tell us the truth. Unfortunately the state of her body, location and passage of time makes it so we can't get a definitive result from that either.

Personally, I suspect she was not murdered. I think she was high and drunk and that led to her demise. It's possible that Brewer gave her something, either with her permission or not, which led her to get to the state she was in. She could have realized she was drugged or way more inebriated than she intended, suspected Brewer of causing it, and that's why she called 911. Pak may not have understood and that's why he was acting as though she just drank too much. It's also possible she was just drunk and high intentionally and Brewer pulled something. Maybe he tried to initiate something he didn't pay for or something that she put off limits. In her state she was fearful and called 911, also suspecting Pak of being in on it.

After that, she may have just been out of her mind and running from house to house, not knowing what to do and ended up drowning in the swamp. That is most likely what happened IMO. If she did actually encounter that sketchy doctor (name is escaping me right now) and he did give her some type of sedative, that could have reacted badly with what was in her system and then she took off and died due to it. Although I am skeptical that encounter ever happened.

None of this is to say she wasn't murdered or OD'ed at the hands of one of these men and they dumped her body. But to me, she sounded intoxicated or high on the call and paranoid. And there is no conclusive physical evidence she was murdered. So sadly, we may never know.

 

[LongIsland731]

We will probably never know exactly what happened to Shannan. If it was an accident, she was alone in her final minutes and isn't here to tell us about it. If it was foul play if was most likely committed by one of the sketchy characters she was with that night and they are not going to tell us the truth. Unfortunately the state of her body, location and passage of time makes it so we can't get a definitive result from that either.

Personally, I suspect she was not murdered. I think she was high and drunk and that led to her demise. It's possible that Brewer gave her something, either with her permission or not, which led her to get to the state she was in. She could have realized she was drugged or way more inebriated than she intended, suspected Brewer of causing it, and that's why she called 911. Pak may not have understood and that's why he was acting as though she just drank too much. It's also possible she was just drunk and high intentionally and Brewer pulled something. Maybe he tried to initiate something he didn't pay for or something that she put off limits. In her state she was fearful and called 911, also suspecting Pak of being in on it.

After that, she may have just been out of her mind and running from house to house, not knowing what to do and ended up drowning in the swamp. That is most likely what happened IMO. If she did actually encounter that sketchy doctor (name is escaping me right now) and he did give her some type of sedative, that could have reacted badly with what was in her system and then she took off and died due to it. Although I am skeptical that encounter ever happened.

None of this is to say she wasn't murdered or OD'ed at the hands of one of these men and they dumped her body. But to me, she sounded intoxicated or high on the call and paranoid. And there is no conclusive physical evidence she was murdered. So sadly, we may never know.

I agree. I just think theirs a lot of unsubstantiated rumors, and myths, some being pushed by the family lawyer. IMO some people's long connection to this case might clouds their judgement. I also think some don't want to believe such a terrible accident can happen, almost like it had to be a homicide.

If it was an accident, and I now strongly believe it was. At least it didn't happen in vein. At least rh will rot in jail and some of his victims will get justice.

 

[Ruminations]

I really only started following this case with the arrest of RH & have read the threads since then. I apologize if this is a commonly-known fact around the case...

For the three women he is accused of murdering, did he dump their bodies in the brushy sides of the road or did he make any kind of attempt to bury them? Or was that not possible to tell because of time?

Thanks for any info.

LE shared early on that the GB4 appeared to have been killed elsewhere and "dumped" above ground post mortem.

I'm not a crime scene analyst, but I would like to hear one opine on the publicly released reasoning for this conclusion.

For (trigger warning!) example, were there signs that the bodies decomposed considerably while in tape/belt/camouflage and the skin was clearly disturbed after some decomp in the pattern of being lifted, loaded, lifted, carried, and dropped upon the shrubs?

I understand why not all info is public. But there seems to be very little discussion that there is evidence that Shannan died in place? I would imagine that there would be clues supporting death right there, vs. death elsewhere. LE is stating that Shannan's death appears to be an accident.

I don't glean that at all from the released evidence, especially the 911 tape. She was rational and afraid; Brewer and Pak were acting very strangely.

I wonder what at the scene, if anything, supports Shannan dying where she was found. Since I believe Shannan was murdered, I would be less surprised to learn there is, in contrast, evidence she was dumped like the GB4 and dismembered victims.

I wish there were a bit more factual information released to put some debates to rest. I would like to hear more about the way Shannan was found, and the marsh surrounding her.

I also wish there were fewer episodes that simply appear to be suppression of facts. The delay of the 911 call release. The LE misrepresentations of its contents. The bizarre photography of the marsh entrance offered by LE, making it appear darker by bouncing light on the reeds. These things are sus, and not explainable by a simple desire to keep the FBI out of internal affairs of Suffolk, afaik.

I don't get why LE is invested in calling this an accident but not supporting it with evidence. And if it were an accident, they don't need the evidence to investigate. They could have gotten away holding facts close more easily saying it's an active investigation rather than an accident.

I don't know how or even if this relates to Rex Heuermann. I'm inclined to think there is a connection. Apparently Rex himself opined Shannan was related, on his "date." But then again, he also fingered J Bit.

I don't think I can let this case go until I know how Shannan relates, or am shown facts that she does not.

PS: I can't imagine ever believing Shannan was not right about being in danger and "set up." If there were any accident or less egregious man slaughter, it coincided with attempted harm on her committed with malice, IMO.

MOO

 

[kittythehare]

LE shared early on that the GB4 appeared to have been killed elsewhere and "dumped" above ground post mortem.

I'm not a crime scene analyst, but I would like to hear one opine on the publicly released reasoning for this conclusion.

For (trigger warning!) example, were there signs that the bodies decomposed considerably while in tape/belt/camouflage and the skin was clearly disturbed after some decomp in the pattern of being lifted, loaded, lifted, carried, and dropped upon the shrubs?

I understand why not all info is public. But there seems to be very little discussion that there is evidence that Shannan died in place? I would imagine that there would be clues supporting death right there, vs. death elsewhere. LE is stating that Shannan's death appears to be an accident.

I don't glean that at all from the released evidence, especially the 911 tape. She was rational and afraid; Brewer and Pak were acting very strangely.

I wonder what at the scene, if anything, supports Shannan dying where she was found. Since I believe Shannan was murdered, I would be less surprised to learn there is, in contrast, evidence she was dumped like the GB4 and dismembered victims.

I wish there were a bit more factual information released to put some debates to rest. I would like to hear more about the way Shannan was found, and the marsh surrounding her.

I also wish there were fewer episodes that simply appear to be suppression of facts. The delay of the 911 call release. The LE misrepresentations of its contents. The bizarre photography of the marsh entrance offered by LE, making it appear darker by bouncing light on the reeds. These things are sus, and not explainable by a simple desire to keep the FBI out of internal affairs of Suffolk, afaik.

I don't get why LE is invested in calling this an accident but not supporting it with evidence. And if it were an accident, they don't need the evidence to investigate. They could have gotten away holding facts close more easily saying it's an active investigation rather than an accident.

I don't know how or even if this relates to Rex Heuermann. I'm inclined to think there is a connection. Apparently Rex himself opined Shannan was related, on his "date." But then again, he also fingered J Bit.

I don't think I can let this case go until I know how Shannan relates, or am shown facts that she does not.

PS: I can't imagine ever believing Shannan was not right about being in danger and "set up." If there were any accident or less egregious man slaughter, it coincided with attempted harm on her committed with malice, IMO.

MOO

I see what you see here.
I see nothing else.

 

[LongIsland731]

I don't glean that at all from the released evidence, especially the 911 tape. She was rational and afraid; Brewer and Pak were acting very strangely.

I respect your opinion but in what world does SG sound rational on that call

"please get me out of here, mike". "I'm begging you now.... I just want to go home"

Then when he said okay "let's go, let's go home" she wouldn't get up. But going home was literally what she just begged him to do seconds before.

She wasnt whispering like someone sneaking away to make a 911 call

Nor was she screaming frantically or specifically saying what happened or what she saw. She didnt say for example knife, gun, taser, rope, they choked me . Nothing specific.. After she got put through to state police she said "there's somebody after me" 2x. She's asked "where are you " she repeats "there somebody after me asked again "where are you mam".... after a 5 second pause she says again "there's somebody after me".. that doesn't sound like someone who's fully aware of what's going on or in fight or flight mode.

She reached the saftey of the colleti's residence. Then took off again for no apparent reason. He didn't see anyone chasing her. He even said to her "wait a min, where are you going , what are you doing"? Hes not involved in any way shape or form , and he was confuses by her behavior. Pak might have pulled up looking for her but that his job go drive her there and back. I don't think it's crazy that the person hired to take you home is trying to get you home.

To me she sounded like a drunk person at the end of a college party. I also think the family lawyer keeps rumors and unsubstantiated assumptions alive for his own personale gain at this point.

 

[Warwick7]

Did the info that Shannan was a drug user come from Michael Pak?

Personally, I don't believe anything he's ever said. (His deposition with John Ray is ridiculous) jmo

BAM!!!

 

[Warwick7]

It seems to me, from listening to the long version of her 911 calls that she lost faith in pak while she was in that house.
I'm not sure what could have brought this about.
Had pak drugged her before she entered thus rendering her incapable of performing what she was paid to do?
was it something like that?
There would be no point in self administration of a narcotic prior to engaging in sex work.
She would have known that.
That suggests to me that it wasn't voluntary.

It wouldn't have been hard to chase her and choke her, anybody present that night could have done it easily and effortlessly, she would have been exhausted at that stage.. easy prey.
My instinct to protect her is strong.

I believe she was murdered but whether that was first or second degree remains unknown..

I need to know more about Pak.. what's the best source?

I couldn't have said it any better!
Bam!

 

[kittythehare]

I couldn't have said it any better!
Bam!

Certainly not reflective of someone who would subsequently drown in 2 inches of water, at most, a few minutes later, is it?

 

[Warwick7]

LE shared early on that the GB4 appeared to have been killed elsewhere and "dumped" above ground post mortem.

I'm not a crime scene analyst, but I would like to hear one opine on the publicly released reasoning for this conclusion.

For (trigger warning!) example, were there signs that the bodies decomposed considerably while in tape/belt/camouflage and the skin was clearly disturbed after some decomp in the pattern of being lifted, loaded, lifted, carried, and dropped upon the shrubs?

I understand why not all info is public. But there seems to be very little discussion that there is evidence that Shannan died in place? I would imagine that there would be clues supporting death right there, vs. death elsewhere. LE is stating that Shannan's death appears to be an accident.

I don't glean that at all from the released evidence, especially the 911 tape. She was rational and afraid; Brewer and Pak were acting very strangely.

I wonder what at the scene, if anything, supports Shannan dying where she was found. Since I believe Shannan was murdered, I would be less surprised to learn there is, in contrast, evidence she was dumped like the GB4 and dismembered victims.

I wish there were a bit more factual information released to put some debates to rest. I would like to hear more about the way Shannan was found, and the marsh surrounding her.

I also wish there were fewer episodes that simply appear to be suppression of facts. The delay of the 911 call release. The LE misrepresentations of its contents. The bizarre photography of the marsh entrance offered by LE, making it appear darker by bouncing light on the reeds. These things are sus, and not explainable by a simple desire to keep the FBI out of internal affairs of Suffolk, afaik.

I don't get why LE is invested in calling this an accident but not supporting it with evidence. And if it were an accident, they don't need the evidence to investigate. They could have gotten away holding facts close more easily saying it's an active investigation rather than an accident.

I don't know how or even if this relates to Rex Heuermann. I'm inclined to think there is a connection. Apparently Rex himself opined Shannan was related, on his "date." But then again, he also fingered J Bit.

I don't think I can let this case go until I know how Shannan relates, or am shown facts that she does not.

PS: I can't imagine ever believing Shannan was not right about being in danger and "set up." If there were any accident or less egregious man slaughter, it coincided with attempted harm on her committed with malice, IMO.

MOO

BBM
Expoints!!!

 

[Warwick7]

"Heuermann is not, however, charged in Gilbert's death — and Ray has never insinuated that Heuermann may have killed her."

"Shannan was last seen running out of Joseph Brewer's house, who was a client, on the day she disappeared before running to a neighbor's house for help."

"Neighbor Barbara Brennan then called cops at around 5.30am on May 1, 2010, just a few minutes before dawn."

"So twilight would've been the condition, not pitch darkness,' Ray said. 'So the police theory that she got lost in the dark and got confused is absurd."

Shannan Gilbert's family lawyer maintains she was murdered

A lawyer representing the family of Shannan Gilbert claims she was strangled to death like the Gilgo Four, whose bodies were found wrapped up in burlap sacks on Gilgo Beach.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Warwick7]

"He also said in a previous interview that Shannan was wearing a bra in photos taken of her body and the band that attaches the two cups was cut in half."

Shannan Gilbert's family lawyer maintains she was murdered

A lawyer representing the family of Shannan Gilbert claims she was strangled to death like the Gilgo Four, whose bodies were found wrapped up in burlap sacks on Gilgo Beach.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[PillowofWinds]

So was RH at the house that Shannan called 911 from? Or did he just happen upon her when she left the house and it has nothing to do with Pak or the Dr at all?

I think it is safe to say that if RH is involved with Shannan, he had to be present at Brewer's. I'm sure he wasn't just lurking in the marsh or wandering the streets of a gated community at that hour expecting a girl to come running around. I do believe it is possible he was there at the house. If so, I think they may have been trying to get her to go with him and she was scared of him and knew, somehow, what was going to happen if she did. (i made another post about this theory)

 

[PillowofWinds]

"Heuermann is not, however, charged in Gilbert's death — and Ray has never insinuated that Heuermann may have killed her."

"Shannan was last seen running out of Joseph Brewer's house, who was a client, on the day she disappeared before running to a neighbor's house for help."

"Neighbor Barbara Brennan then called cops at around 5.30am on May 1, 2010, just a few minutes before dawn."

"So twilight would've been the condition, not pitch darkness,' Ray said. 'So the police theory that she got lost in the dark and got confused is absurd."

Shannan Gilbert's family lawyer maintains she was murdered

A lawyer representing the family of Shannan Gilbert claims she was strangled to death like the Gilgo Four, whose bodies were found wrapped up in burlap sacks on Gilgo Beach.

www.dailymail.co.uk

if these are actual quotes, not accurate info... i do not trust Ray...and he should say last seen at barbara brennans doorstep, based on all of the statements recorded in depositions. <modsnip - no link to an approve source to statement made as fact>

 

[LongIsland731]

Did the info that Shannan was a drug user come from Michael Pak?

Personally, I don't believe anything he's ever said. (His deposition with John Ray is ridiculous) jmo

In the 911 call Pak mentions she told him to buy her drugs.

Shannon says "I'm never going to enjoy it again" I think that's her "I'm never drinking again" that we all say after a bad night out drinking.

In my opinion If pak or brewer had anything to do with her death. Neither would have spoke to the cops the next day. Pak is a convicted felon and a driver fir sex workers. Who also had an illegal gun on him that night by his own admission. Anyone with half a brain let alone a career petty criminal knows you don't talk to the police. ESPECIALLY if you actually did something illegal. If either or both had anytbing to hide they wouldn't have spoke to the police. They would have lawyered up and shut thier mouths. And we would know even less than we do now.

<modsnip - no link to an approved source source to statement made as fact>

 

[LongIsland731]

I think it is safe to say that if RH is involved with Shannan, he had to be present at Brewer's. I'm sure he wasn't just lurking in the marsh or wandering the streets of a gated community at that hour expecting a girl to come running around. I do believe it is possible he was there at the house. If so, I think they may have been trying to get her to go with him and she was scared of him and knew, somehow, what was going to happen if she did. (i made another post about this theory)

In my opinion RH was nowhere near there. Brewer was hanging out with her for 3 hours before her 911 call. How does waiting 3 hours to make a move on her make sense. You really think RH would be working with someone else? You think he would call a girl with an armed driver? RH made sure to use Burner phones. He picked all his victims up. It took him 12 years to get caught. RH wrapped his victims in camo and put them more or less on the side of the road so he could go back and visit them. Shannon was found in veggitation that would slice you up. Why would a potential murderer go through all that when they could have dumped her body somewhere easier to get to. The cops used a treaded vehicle to reach her.

If she was so alert and coherent during her 911 call like some claim she was. Why wouldn't she have said someone is trying to take me? Someone hit me . Someone choked me. Someone's got a gun a knife a bat. She didnt mention one real specific thing.

After she got put through to state police she said "there's somebody after me" 2x. She's asked "where are you " she repeats "there somebody after me asked again "where are you mam".... after a 5 second pause she says again "there's somebody after me"..

Pak begged her to get up and go home she resisted... 2 mins later she's begging him to take her home. As soon as he said let's go home she didn't want to.

 

[fred&edna]

In the 911 call Pak mentions she told him to buy her drugs.

Shannon says "I'm never going to enjoy it again" I think that's her "I'm never drinking again" that we all say after a bad night out drinking.

In my opinion If pak or brewer had anything to do with her death. Neither would have spoke to the cops the next day. Pak is a convicted felon and a driver fir sex workers. Who also had an illegal gun on him that night by his own admission. Anyone with half a brain let alone a career petty criminal knows you don't talk to the police. ESPECIALLY if you actually did something illegal. If either or both had anytbing to hide they wouldn't have spoke to the police. They would have lawyered up and shut thier mouths. And we would know even less than we do now.

Of the 30+ sex workers u have spoken too. Not one do I reclass didn't drunk and or do some type of drug. Usually cocain because it helps keep you up all night. Basically when they are the busiest.

Regarding the call, you hear statements that I don't. And, we can disagree about that from now on... there's no one around to truthfully verify anything said in that call.

Shannan was in trouble (afraid for her life) and she knew it. She thought the 911 operator could trace her location... sadly, that wasn't possible.

Pak wasn't around to talk to any officers who showed up for their 10 minute visit to Oak Beach.

Brewer knew Coletti knew where SG came from... he was "caught" and any trace of his phone call would lead to Pak/the agency.

And, by the time SCPD had Pak take that polygraph test he was so medicated he fell asleep... and exactly how much time passed before they even administered that test... was it a month or even months later??

Sure, sex workers usually want to extend their time with a client (because it yields more money) and coke is a good way to keep a client "engaged in activity". And, it's extremely rare for a night with a client doing cocaine that ends up with a call like Shannan's to 911.

Joseph Ruis (co-conspirator with Shannan - who was set to testify in the case just before she went missing) went to prison for operating a big $$ prostitution and drug business. What a coincidence. As I've stated previously, there is more to this case than a 911 call.

ETA: Personally, I don't think RH was involved in Shannan's death AND I don't think her death was an accident.

 

[LongIsland731]

if these are actual quotes, not accurate info... i do not trust Ray...and he should say last seen at barbara brennans doorstep, based on all of the statements recorded in depositions.<modsnip - no link to an approved source>. have not heard any solid facts.

Ray went from someone I was rooting for early on to now someone I am suspicious of. He's a lawyer at the end of the day. Believing everything he says is crazy. He took this :

Baden said "the evidence was consistent with homicidal strangulation, but insufficient to release an official cause of death."

And turned it into she was definitely murdered. She had a drill in her neck. And started saying things in the media as if they were a matter of fact.

Baden is a world renowned expert who's done COUNTLESS autopsies and he's given his official cause of death in THOUSANDS of them. If he was completely sure shannon was murdered he would have a problem saying it. But he did not.

The one who did is Ray, the <modsnip>. Who directly benefits from being in the media and keeping SG's story going.