Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[Peter Brendt]

I've noticed an "asian" connection in SG/GB4/AC case. We have Michael Pak, The Transvestite and I recently discovered Kim Raffo and Pam Covelli had dates with Asian men on the night she disappeared.

Covelli said she last saw Raffo at the Golden Key on Friday, Nov. 17. Both she and Raffo had "dates" that night with Asian men, Covelli said. She said that she had planned to meet up with Raffo later at a nearby bar and restaurant, but that she never saw the woman again.

http://articles.philly.com/2007-02-18/news/25238976_1_vice-squad-bodies-police-officer/3

This asian connection is not meant to be racial profiling but more looking for a connection to international sex trade ala internationalsexguide, SY, Pak's possible involvement in international human trafficking etc etc

But then, Asian and Half-Asian men are not so rare on the East Coast. That is the kind of connection like "the victims were all prostitutes". Yes, but what else, why those prostitutes and why not the thousands of others?

 

[BKS]

I am too tired to do much digging tonight, but I came across these in my notes:

http://www.examiner.com/city-hall-i...s-a-new-lead-a-solid-connection#ixzz1PlHr1o7a

The similarities between the cause of death, strangulation, and the number of victims laid out in a graveyard style senario, has not been lost on investigators who are not even sure if they have found all the murder victims to date on Long Island.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/19/national/main3520577.shtml#ixzz1PlEPhGet

Raffo's body was the first to be identified. An autopsy determined she had been strangled with a rope or cord and had been in the ditch for a couple

Thank you for your post There are so many similarities in these cases. I still believe these cases are related. Every time I read these articles I am reminded of all the misleading statements made by Raffo's ex. His life long connection to LI and his misleading statements are very disturbing. I'm not accusing him of being the sk, I'm just saying why lie, if you have nothing to hide?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I am too tired to do much digging tonight, but I came across these in my notes:

http://www.examiner.com/city-hall-i...s-a-new-lead-a-solid-connection#ixzz1PlHr1o7a

The similarities between the cause of death, strangulation, and the number of victims laid out in a graveyard style senario, has not been lost on investigators who are not even sure if they have found all the murder victims to date on Long Island.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/19/national/main3520577.shtml#ixzz1PlEPhGet

Raffo's body was the first to be identified. An autopsy determined she had been strangled with a rope or cord and had been in the ditch for a couple

Thank you for your post There are so many similarities in these cases. I still believe these cases are related. Every time I read these articles I am reminded of all the misleading statements made by Raffo's ex. His life long connection to LI and his misleading statements are very disturbing. I'm not accusing him of being the sk, I'm just saying why lie, if you have nothing to hide?

Question: What about the different kill frequency? What about the staging of the AC bodies? What about the wrapping of the GB4?
On another sidenote, people lie. Why? In such cases often enough, because they are afraid, LE, the media or some internetsleuths ignore half of the details, knit some wild theories and accuse them without the smallest shred of evidence. Which usually comes out and makes them look even worse. So if you think, something is fishy with the guy (we are still not supposed to use his name, I guess), how about, you find at least a theory how it is possible, he committed those murders. Because if, he would have to go to AC not only one time, but four times.

 

[woodstick]

Question: What about the different kill frequency? What about the staging of the AC bodies? What about the wrapping of the GB4?
On another sidenote, people lie. Why? In such cases often enough, because they are afraid, LE, the media or some internetsleuths ignore half of the details, knit some wild theories and accuse them without the smallest shred of evidence. Which usually comes out and makes them look even worse. So if you think, something is fishy with the guy (we are still not supposed to use his name, I guess), how about, you find at least a theory how it is possible, he committed those murders. Because if, he would have to go to AC not only one time, but four times.

Technically it's very easy to go to AC from LI/NYC every day or night. There are plenty of buses departing at 6:30pm from hundreds of grocery stores throughout all 5 boroughs. They go straight to casinos and come back approx. at 6:30am. Round trip costs approx. $20-$30 depending on location and destination (Tropicana, Borgata etc.). Cheap and convenient, no ID asked.

This person is made of 50 shades of grey, IMO. I'm more than sure that he was behind her back a lot of more times than he mentionned and she knew. Some of his stories didn't add up at all as that one with attempt to regain custody of children during their last LI stay. Guess who made this poor woman think that this is even possible at that time? As we know (his words) she left LI after 5 wks stay to come back in AC around October 10-15. How do we know that he didn't jump on the next bus and followed her without letting her know? MJD was placed in the ditch somewhere around these dates. That's the fact. If so, you don't need those 4 times to come in AC, you just need to be there........secretly.

 

[Theforeigner]

Technically it's very easy to go to AC from LI/NYC every day or night. There are plenty of buses departing at 6:30pm from hundreds of grocery stores throughout all 5 boroughs. They go straight to casinos and come back approx. at 6:30am. Round trip costs approx. $20-$30 depending on location and destination (Tropicana, Borgata etc.). Cheap and convenient, no ID asked.

This person is made of 50 shades of grey, IMO. I'm more than sure that he was behind her back a lot of more times than he mentionned and she knew. Some of his stories didn't add up at all as that one with attempt to regain custody of children during their last LI stay. Guess who made this poor woman think that this is even possible at that time? As we know (his words) she left LI after 5 wks stay to come back in AC around October 10-15. How do we know that he didn't jump on the next bus and followed her without letting her know? MJD was placed in the ditch somewhere around these dates. That's the fact. If so, you don't need those 4 times to come in AC, you just need to be there........secretly.

EXACTLY! great post Woodstick, and thanks for putting that explanation together.
And by the way, I have info that the guy you are talking about (his own words), DID indeed follow after his x-wife back to AC, same day or the day after she left Long Island Oct 14, 2006(according to him).
I will find it and make sure you get the info.

By the way the quote your responded to was NOT by "BKS" but by "Peter Brendt"

 

[Redbird]

Sometimes people lie because they are pathological liars. The SK I am imagining has money and the guy you are talking about is a loser who can barely afford a cheap motel. Just don't think he is involved except to enjoy being in the media.

 

[woodstick]

Theforeigner, i know you profiled him, me either. My research is very similar to yours. Initially i felt a great sympathy to him, given he was truthful. But what is interesting - set aside EVERYTHING he says about their relationship over the years, just white everything out and analyse what the other people say about very same events....the picture is totally different. I would give way much more credits to D.Hill and P.Covelli than to him. Did you check your visitors comment's page? i left something there. Everytime i saw his face in the media, those tracks played on the background in my mind...
I have a strong feeling that his X is the only key to AC case.

 

[Justiceforever]

My dad used to say "Barney Miller was the tv cop show closest to reality."

Too funny! ; )

 

[Justiceforever]

I think that it was one of the AC victims. I don't recall what type of ligature was found, but I believe that it was still around her neck.

I saw acrime scene photo of one of the victims skeletal remains posted by someone i. one of the threads here...there was a piece of driftwood...a garrot perhaps?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Technically it's very easy to go to AC from LI/NYC every day or night. There are plenty of buses departing at 6:30pm from hundreds of grocery stores throughout all 5 boroughs. They go straight to casinos and come back approx. at 6:30am. Round trip costs approx. $20-$30 depending on location and destination (Tropicana, Borgata etc.). Cheap and convenient, no ID asked.

This person is made of 50 shades of grey, IMO. I'm more than sure that he was behind her back a lot of more times than he mentionned and she knew. Some of his stories didn't add up at all as that one with attempt to regain custody of children during their last LI stay. Guess who made this poor woman think that this is even possible at that time? As we know (his words) she left LI after 5 wks stay to come back in AC around October 10-15. How do we know that he didn't jump on the next bus and followed her without letting her know? MJD was placed in the ditch somewhere around these dates. That's the fact. If so, you don't need those 4 times to come in AC, you just need to be there........secretly.

Okay, when I asked you to prove at least, how he possibly could have connected those murders, I wasn't thinking bus lines. It appeared too obvious to me, that the killer didn't come by bus. He needed a vehicle to bring the AC bodies to where they were found. Which means also, he couldn't just jump on the next bus behind her.
And of course, we would need also the connection to the other three victims, not just one. We would need an explanation, why this guy would have all kinds of drugs at hand he needed for them. Remember, the crack addict got crack, the heroin addict had an almost lethal dose of heroin in the tox screen and the alcoholic was drunk at the time of death.
If you don't assume, he brought the kid to the murders, you would also need to figure out where the kid was at the time, he would have committed such murders.
And this "guess who is behind" ... well, I can't blame him for an attempt to get his wife off the drugs and to get back custody isn't so impossible at all, but it would demand a successful rehab and being sober for at least a year. So yes, he is definitively guilty of trying to get her off the drugs and now you try to interpret that as circumstantial evidence for murder. That proves, no good deed goes unpunished, but nothing else.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Just a question, but is someone copying those pure AC posts over to the AC thread? Because that is where they belong or the guys exclusively discussing AC will maybe miss them.

 

[Theforeigner]

I saw acrime scene photo of one of the victims skeletal remains posted by someone i. one of the threads here...there was a piece of driftwood...a garrot perhaps?

FYI that skeletal remains picture you refere to was NOT a AC victim it was one of the LISK victims.
The problem that caoused the error/confusion was that in the AC Dark Minds program they had put in that picture of one of the LISK victims, while talking about teh AC victims, now WHY on earth they did that??? I have no idea.

There has been NO images published of any of the AC victims remains.

But it was reported about Kim Raffo that:
"She died of ligature strangulation with a cord or a rope."

 

[woodstick]

Okay, when I asked you to prove at least, how he possibly could have connected those murders, I wasn't thinking bus lines. It appeared too obvious to me, that the killer didn't come by bus. He needed a vehicle to bring the AC bodies to where they were found. Which means also, he couldn't just jump on the next bus behind her.
And of course, we would need also the connection to the other three victims, not just one. We would need an explanation, why this guy would have all kinds of drugs at hand he needed for them. Remember, the crack addict got crack, the heroin addict had an almost lethal dose of heroin in the tox screen and the alcoholic was drunk at the time of death.
If you don't assume, he brought the kid to the murders, you would also need to figure out where the kid was at the time, he would have committed such murders.
And this "guess who is behind" ... well, I can't blame him for an attempt to get his wife off the drugs and to get back custody isn't so impossible at all, but it would demand a successful rehab and being sober for at least a year. So yes, he is definitively guilty of trying to get her off the drugs and now you try to interpret that as circumstantial evidence for murder. That proves, no good deed goes unpunished, but nothing else.

The drugs/alcohol "no mistake made" distribution makes me think that he knew them. All 4 had a lethal dose of alcohol/heroine/crack coke in their systems at the time of deaths. He was willing to invest $$$ to feed these women addictions... Street value of BB heroine dose was more than $200 as i could estimate..so i have no doubts.. he knew them in person. as always IMO.

 

[Peter Brendt]

The drugs/alcohol "no mistake made" distribution makes me think that he knew them. All 4 had a lethal dose of alcohol/heroine/crack coke in their systems at the time of deaths. He was willing to invest $$$ to feed these women addictions... Street value of BB heroine dose was more than $200 as i could estimate..so i have no doubts.. he knew them in person. as always IMO.

Yeah, the killer knew them all, which is exactly the point, why I mentioned those different drugs. The KILLER knew them, but could Kim Raffo's ex known them? To get this kind of knowledge, you have to be around them, not only for some hours. Around them all. Not only Raffo.
And, another thing, that may supports the theory is, that one wasn't at the time of her disappearance soliciting at all, because she had been attacked a while ago and was still in convalescence. Another one was last seen leaving for a short errant, she had obviously no intention to look for Johns. Which makes also in AC the homicidal john theory rather obsolete because it would mean a stalker or someone around all four in their drug and prostitution scene. Someone, who was regularly there, not just for some trips into AC. Someone who would have seen them on a regularly base (seen as in optical, not as in dating).
So, IMO, I think, you got the nature of the killer right, you're only knocking at the wrong door. What do you make of this high kill frequency and the sudden end of the series?

 

[woodstick]

I would like to correct myself a lil bit. Under "he knew them" i actually meant that he could not only know them in person (had dinner with each of them, go shopping etc) but also know them by "lil birdie talks". Living in AC for more than 5 yrs KR was a great source of "AC street radio" info... IMO. He repeatedly denied that they all knew each other but other sources said they partied together sometime... so what the true?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I would like to correct myself a lil bit. Under "he knew them" i actually meant that he could not only know them in person (had dinner with each of them, go shopping etc) but also know them by "lil birdie talks". Living in AC for more than 5 yrs KR was a great source of "AC street radio" info... IMO. He repeatedly denied that they all knew each other but other sources said they partied together sometime... so what the true?

Merely by logic. and I know, that's an unpopular issue, I would say, he was wrong in a logical sense and should have said "as far as I know, they didn't know each other. I never heard about the other names before from KIm" or something like that. Because his knowledge would be based on what Kim told him and he had no way to verify it.
On the other side, two would have known each other, but all four? Maybe by sight, since they used the same red-light streets.
And the killer knew them means not, he went shopping with them, it means, he was near enough to see them and started to stalk them. Only for a short time, since the kill frequency is that high. Which makes him looking like someone who exercises more than really feeling an urge.

 

[Theforeigner]

Peter Brendt

Kim Raffo indeed knew at least TWO of the other 3 AC4 victims well, Tracy Ann Roberts and Molly Jean Dilts.
And there are indications that she also knew the third victim Barbara V. Breidor.

<modsnip>

Here is information to back up that Kim Raffo knew the other AC4 victims:

Newsreports says that Kim Raffo indeed knew and accociated with both Tracy Ann Roberts and Molly Jean Dilts, and that Kim apparently rented hotel room, at the very same hotel and in the 21 day timeframe of Oct 2-Oct 23, 2006 , as Barbara V Breidor did.
Some of the quotes are from no longer avaible newsreports, newsreports which I have payed to get, so I can not provide a link to those newsreports but I do have the full newsreports.
I have added the headline of the newsreports, the dates of the newsreports and who wrote them:

Connection between Kim Raffo and Tracy Ann Roberts, 23:

FOUR WOMEN, FOUR STORIES OF HOPE LOST ON STREETS OF ATLANTIC CITY
By LYNDA COHEN, TOM NAMAKO and MICHAEL MILLER
Published: December 3, 2006

&#8220;When it gets Unable to dote on the children she loved, Kim begins taking an interest in the lost girls of the street. She befriends them, giving them a place to get cleaned up and eat. Sometimes they sleep there, on the floor. A regular at the apartment is Tracy Roberts.

Connection between Kim Raffo and Molly Jean Dilts, 20:

FOUR WOMEN, FOUR STORIES OF HOPE LOST ON STREETS OF ATLANTIC CITY
By LYNDA COHEN, TOM NAMAKO and MICHAEL MILLER Staff Writers, (609)
272-7231
Published: December 3, 2006

&#8220;Kim took an interest in the full-faced young girl with the long dark hair. Molly was only 20. She looked even younger.
She was always with Kim on the street. The young girl who lost her mother and the 35-year-old woman who lost her kids may have found something to cling to in one another. &#8221;

Possible connection between Kim Raffo and Barbara V. Breidor, 42:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/23/nyregion/23slay.html?ref=nyregion&pagewanted=all
Dith Pran/The New York Times
Quote from newsreport Published: December 22, 2006, 1 month and 2 days after Kim Raffo was found murdered:

&#8220;Mr. Hessee, who stayed in Room 104 at the Fox Manor Hotel from Oct. 2 to Oct. 23, said he had met both Ms. Raffo and Ms. Breidor, who would each take a room at the hotel from time to time&#8221;

 

[Theforeigner]

Yeah, the killer knew them all, which is exactly the point, why I mentioned those different drugs. The KILLER knew them, but could Kim Raffo's ex known them? To get this kind of knowledge, you have to be around them, not only for some hours. Around them all. Not only Raffo.
And, another thing, that may supports the theory is, that one wasn't at the time of her disappearance soliciting at all, because she had been attacked a while ago and was still in convalescence.
Another one was last seen leaving for a short errant, she had obviously no intention to look for Johns. Which makes also in AC the homicidal john theory rather obsolete because it would mean a stalker or someone around all four in their drug and prostitution scene. Someone, who was regularly there, not just for some trips into AC. Someone who would have seen them on a regularly base (seen as in optical, not as in dating).
So, IMO, I think, you got the nature of the killer right, you're only knocking at the wrong door. What do you make of this high kill frequency and the sudden end of the series?

Could you please provide information and/or link to that, as you claim, Tracy Ann Roberts at the time of her disappearance was:
"wasn't at the time of her disappearance soliciting at all"
"and was still in convalescence"

I do know that Tracy was attacked that 2006 fall, but I have not seen any info that she had stoped working as a prostitute bc she was in "still in convalescence"

And concerning your other claim, about Barbara V. Breidor, that:
"Another one was last seen leaving for a short errant, she had obviously no intention to look for Johns"

How can you know what her intention was or was not?
She might very well have left to make a quick trick if she was in need for money.

 

[Theforeigner]

One thing to think about is that fact that Kim Raffo was the LAST victim of the AC4.

Did somone want to scare Kim Raffo, by killing her friends, to make her stop her life as a prostitute and leave Atlantic City?

And when KR choose NOT to stop, choose NOT to leave AC, she was also murdered.

 

[Theforeigner]

here is a report about the attack on tracy Ann Roberts.
Nothing says that she didn´t work anymore, only that she:

"she had retained from a brief time in Georgia, became withdrawn, her voice a whisper"

And that:

“Her spirit changed,” said another prostitute who worked with Ms. Roberts. “She wasn’t the same.”

I mean how would she survive in AC if she didn't work as a prostitute?


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/nyregion/05slay.html?pagewanted=all
Tracy Ann Roberts

Tracy Ann Roberts, 23, who medical examiners say was asphyxiated before she was dumped in the ravine, gravitated to Atlantic City because it seemed a promising place to make a living as an exotic dancer. But drug use left her so emaciated that club owners deemed her unfit for the stage, so she turned to the streets, said a friend, Jannette Brown, herself a former prostitute and drug addict.

A native of Bear, Del., about 50 miles from Atlantic City, Ms. Roberts dropped out of high school at 16 and eventually began studying to become a medical assistant. But after bearing a child and breaking up with her boyfriend, she began using cocaine heavily, drifting between Philadelphia and Atlantic City.

Ms. Roberts made her final journey here in August, trying to escape an abusive relationship. But in early November, a man who wanted to be Ms. Roberts’s pimp punched her in the throat so hard that she coughed up blood and had to be hospitalized, said a friend, a 29-year-old prostitute who goes by the street name Kim Possible.

After the attack, Ms. Roberts, who had been known for her uncommon willingness to share drugs and for the Southern accent she had retained from a brief time in Georgia, became withdrawn, her voice a whisper.

“Her spirit changed,” said another prostitute who worked with Ms. Roberts. “She wasn’t the same.”


By the way there are several slightly different newsreports on the issue, but as far as I have been able to find NONE of them says that she wasen't:
"soliciting at all, because she had been attacked a while ago and was still in convalescence."