Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[Justiceforever]

FYI that skeletal remains picture you refere to was NOT a AC victim it was one of the LISK victims.
The problem that caoused the error/confusion was that in the AC Dark Minds program they had put in that picture of one of the LISK victims, while talking about teh AC victims, now WHY on earth they did that??? I have no idea.

There has been NO images published of any of the AC victims remains.

But it was reported about Kim Raffo that:
"She died of ligature strangulation with a cord or a rope."

Thank you for that...I always like reading what u have to say because I usually learn something

 

[Justiceforever]

The drugs/alcohol "no mistake made" distribution makes me think that he knew them. All 4 had a lethal dose of alcohol/heroine/crack coke in their systems at the time of deaths. He was willing to invest $$$ to feed these women addictions... Street value of BB heroine dose was more than $200 as i could estimate..so i have no doubts.. he knew them in person. as always IMO.

DID THEY!? I hadnt read that! @the lethal doses...is this true?

 

[Theforeigner]

DID THEY!? I hadnt read that! @the lethal doses...is this true?

Here is the info


Here is information concerning what kind of drugs was found the the AC4 victims, showing that all 4 victims were influenced by either drugs or alcohol:

The toxicology reports on the 4, Nov 20 2006, Atlantic City murder victims,revealed:

Kim Raffo: large amounts of cocaine

Tracy Roberts: large amounts of cocaine

Barbara Breidor: potentially lethal dose of heroin

Molly Dilts: alcohol (no drugs)




And here JFYI, is info on when the AC4 victims were last seen alive in Atlantic City in 2006:

Oct 7, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Molly Jean Dilts disappear

Oct 17, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Barbara V. Breidor disappear

Nov 15, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Tracy Ann Roberts disappear

Nov 19, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Kim Raffo was alleged seen for the last time by Joe Boccino, owner of Papa Joe’s, an Atlantic City diner, at 2:30 AM

All 4 AC victims were found Nov 20th, 2006

 

[Peter Brendt]

here is a report about the attack on tracy Ann Roberts.
Nothing says that she didn´t work anymore, only that she:

"she had retained from a brief time in Georgia, became withdrawn, her voice a whisper"

And that:

“Her spirit changed,” said another prostitute who worked with Ms. Roberts. “She wasn’t the same.”

I mean how would she survive in AC if she didn't work as a prostitute?


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/05/nyregion/05slay.html?pagewanted=all
Tracy Ann Roberts

Tracy Ann Roberts, 23, who medical examiners say was asphyxiated before she was dumped in the ravine, gravitated to Atlantic City because it seemed a promising place to make a living as an exotic dancer. But drug use left her so emaciated that club owners deemed her unfit for the stage, so she turned to the streets, said a friend, Jannette Brown, herself a former prostitute and drug addict.

A native of Bear, Del., about 50 miles from Atlantic City, Ms. Roberts dropped out of high school at 16 and eventually began studying to become a medical assistant. But after bearing a child and breaking up with her boyfriend, she began using cocaine heavily, drifting between Philadelphia and Atlantic City.

Ms. Roberts made her final journey here in August, trying to escape an abusive relationship. But in early November, a man who wanted to be Ms. Roberts’s pimp punched her in the throat so hard that she coughed up blood and had to be hospitalized, said a friend, a 29-year-old prostitute who goes by the street name Kim Possible.

After the attack, Ms. Roberts, who had been known for her uncommon willingness to share drugs and for the Southern accent she had retained from a brief time in Georgia, became withdrawn, her voice a whisper.

“Her spirit changed,” said another prostitute who worked with Ms. Roberts. “She wasn’t the same.”


By the way there are several slightly different newsreports on the issue, but as far as I have been able to find NONE of them says that she wasen't:
"soliciting at all, because she had been attacked a while ago and was still in convalescence."

She didn't withdraw permanently from prostitution, but since she was in hospital after that attack and only ab. two weeks out, her voice not more than a whisper, how could she solicit business in the first place in that time?

 

[Peter Brendt]

IOn a more general side note: Can a mod transfer all those "pure" AC-posts to the AC-forums please. This is about possible connections and none of it points to any connection.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter Brendt

Kim Raffo indeed knew at least TWO of the other 3 AC4 victims well, Tracy Ann Roberts and Molly Jean Dilts.
And there are indications that she also knew the third victim Barbara V. Breidor.

Add to that that Kim Raffo's x-husband actually LIVED in Atlantic City even BEFORE Kim went there, he left Florida with the kids, went to AC when Kim found the other man. I have his address in AC. Kim's X-husband knew AC very well, also had/have other family there.
And by the way, at the time of the AC4 Kim Raffo and her x-husband's children was in fostercare.

Here is information to back up that Kim Raffo knew the other AC4 victims:

Newsreports says that Kim Raffo indeed knew and accociated with both Tracy Ann Roberts and Molly Jean Dilts, and that Kim apparently rented hotel room, at the very same hotel and in the 21 day timeframe of Oct 2-Oct 23, 2006 , as Barbara V Breidor did.
Some of the quotes are from no longer avaible newsreports, newsreports which I have payed to get, so I can not provide a link to those newsreports but I do have the full newsreports.
I have added the headline of the newsreports, the dates of the newsreports and who wrote them:

Connection between Kim Raffo and Tracy Ann Roberts, 23:

FOUR WOMEN, FOUR STORIES OF HOPE LOST ON STREETS OF ATLANTIC CITY
By LYNDA COHEN, TOM NAMAKO and MICHAEL MILLER
Published: December 3, 2006

“When it gets Unable to dote on the children she loved, Kim begins taking an interest in the lost girls of the street. She befriends them, giving them a place to get cleaned up and eat. Sometimes they sleep there, on the floor. A regular at the apartment is Tracy Roberts.

Connection between Kim Raffo and Molly Jean Dilts, 20:

FOUR WOMEN, FOUR STORIES OF HOPE LOST ON STREETS OF ATLANTIC CITY
By LYNDA COHEN, TOM NAMAKO and MICHAEL MILLER Staff Writers, (609)
272-7231
Published: December 3, 2006

“Kim took an interest in the full-faced young girl with the long dark hair. Molly was only 20. She looked even younger.
She was always with Kim on the street. The young girl who lost her mother and the 35-year-old woman who lost her kids may have found something to cling to in one another. ”

Possible connection between Kim Raffo and Barbara V. Breidor, 42:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/23/nyregion/23slay.html?ref=nyregion&pagewanted=all
Dith Pran/The New York Times
Quote from newsreport Published: December 22, 2006, 1 month and 2 days after Kim Raffo was found murdered:

“Mr. Hessee, who stayed in Room 104 at the Fox Manor Hotel from Oct. 2 to Oct. 23, said he had met both Ms. Raffo and Ms. Breidor, who would each take a room at the hotel from time to time”

1.) What makes you think, Kim delivered every evening a detailed report to her ex-husband about who slept on her floor and what drugs those persons were on?

2.) Seems we go down the old article game again?

3.) If there is a limited number of places, rented from time to time by a limited number of persons for short periods of time, mathematics tells us, it's no coincidence that some of them after a time have rented at least once the same place. It is inevitable.

4.) And what exactly is the connection to Gilgo Beach?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Here is the info


Here is information concerning what kind of drugs was found the the AC4 victims, showing that all 4 victims were influenced by either drugs or alcohol:

The toxicology reports on the 4, Nov 20 2006, Atlantic City murder victims,revealed:

Kim Raffo: large amounts of cocaine

Tracy Roberts: large amounts of cocaine

Barbara Breidor: potentially lethal dose of heroin

Molly Dilts: alcohol (no drugs)




And here JFYI, is info on when the AC4 victims were last seen alive in Atlantic City in 2006:

Oct 7, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Molly Jean Dilts disappear

Oct 17, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Barbara V. Breidor disappear

Nov 15, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Tracy Ann Roberts disappear

Nov 19, 2006:
Atlantic City murder victim Kim Raffo was alleged seen for the last time by Joe Boccino, owner of Papa Joe’s, an Atlantic City diner, at 2:30 AM

All 4 AC victims were found Nov 20th, 2006

Also note the high but irregular kill frequency. 10 days between #1 and #2, 28 days between #2 and #3, 4 days between #3 and #4. Since 2 victims from before the gap was found and two from after that time, we can be relative sure, there was none in between, which means, this killer isn't following the usual parabolic ramp up of the garden variety psychopath, as for example LISK does (with the notable difference, that LISKs kill speed indicates, he is faaaaar behind AC on the graph).

 

[waltson]

Steven Cicero, a friend of Ms. Raffo’s, said that he was interviewed by the authorities late last week and that they asked about a crack dealer who had been sleeping in the living room of her Ocean Avenue apartment, and about two men from Howard Beach. Mr. Cicero, who is from Ozone Park, Queens, said the investigators indicated that they had been to Queens over the last two weeks.

“They showed me pictures of two guys from Howard Beach, one scruffy guy and one with big ears,” Mr. Cicero said. “They said these guys are from your neck of the woods. They asked me if I knew Lenny’s Clam Bar in Howard Beach. I hate to say it, but it doesn’t sound like they really got anything right now.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/23/nyregion/23slay.html?pagewanted=all

I've always wondered about these guys from Howard Beach. What's at Lenny's Clam Bar? Clams. Clamming. Burlap. Gilgo. lease:

 

[woodstick]

Steven Cicero, a friend of Ms. Raffo’s, said that he was interviewed by the authorities late last week and that they asked about a crack dealer who had been sleeping in the living room of her Ocean Avenue apartment, and about two men from Howard Beach. Mr. Cicero, who is from Ozone Park, Queens, said the investigators indicated that they had been to Queens over the last two weeks.

“They showed me pictures of two guys from Howard Beach, one scruffy guy and one with big ears,” Mr. Cicero said. “They said these guys are from your neck of the woods. They asked me if I knew Lenny’s Clam Bar in Howard Beach. I hate to say it, but it doesn’t sound like they really got anything right now.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/23/nyregion/23slay.html?pagewanted=all

I've always wondered about these guys from Howard Beach. What's at Lenny's Clam Bar? Clams. Clamming. Burlap. Gilgo. lease:

This is Italian place by all meanings .. 161-03 Cross Bay Blvd, Howard Beach, NY. Smelly canal is on the back of the restaurant but overall for eating purposes it's pretty good.

 

[Justiceforever]

I dont really know about how this site fully works but since the AC and Manorville killings dont seem to be the work of the LISK, shouldnt there be a separate listing under serial killers forum for them...it would make it easier to sort out the facts in each seperate case...I think! Just a thought

 

[Peter Brendt]

Steven Cicero, a friend of Ms. Raffo’s, said that he was interviewed by the authorities late last week and that they asked about a crack dealer who had been sleeping in the living room of her Ocean Avenue apartment, and about two men from Howard Beach. Mr. Cicero, who is from Ozone Park, Queens, said the investigators indicated that they had been to Queens over the last two weeks.

“They showed me pictures of two guys from Howard Beach, one scruffy guy and one with big ears,” Mr. Cicero said. “They said these guys are from your neck of the woods. They asked me if I knew Lenny’s Clam Bar in Howard Beach. I hate to say it, but it doesn’t sound like they really got anything right now.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/23/nyregion/23slay.html?pagewanted=all

I've always wondered about these guys from Howard Beach. What's at Lenny's Clam Bar? Clams. Clamming. Burlap. Gilgo. lease:

Well, and there are also people who eat occasionally clams in Daytona Beach ... or in London ... and those clams have been maybe or maybe not transported in burlap sacks ... so now we have, what here counts as hard forensic evidence, Jack the Ripper is LISK and we all can do home. lease:

 

[Justiceforever]

I dont really know about how this site fully works but since the AC and Manorville killings dont seem to be the work of the LISK, shouldnt there be a separate listing under serial killers forum for them...it would make it easier to sort out the facts in each seperate case...I think! Just a thought

I say this because in reading all the info its easy to get the cases mixed up and hard to keep the facts of each cases seperate in my mind. I think if the lisk had its own and th AC had its own and the manorville had its own seperate forums or whatever they are called instead of having seperate threads under lisk it would help a lot...am I the only one? ; )

 

[Peter Brendt]

I dont really know about how this site fully works but since the AC and Manorville killings dont seem to be the work of the LISK, shouldnt there be a separate listing under serial killers forum for them...it would make it easier to sort out the facts in each seperate case...I think! Just a thought

This thread is historical undergrowth from the time, some people thought, AC, LISK and Manorville would be the same guy. Which of course was a stretch from the beginning, but you know as it is, sometimes things enter the world, develop a life on their own, and it is hard to get rid of them

 

[Justiceforever]

This thread is historical undergrowth from the time, some people thought, AC, LISK and Manorville would be the same guy. Which of course was a stretch from the beginning, but you know as it is, sometimes things enter the world, develop a life on their own, and it is hard to get rid of them

Lmao! I sent a message to sosueme suggesting that they be split up...who knows...it makes more sense though probaly a lot of work tho!

 

[Redbird]

There have been many posters that think the two cases are connected and that there is only one LISK. I happen to be one of them. Many facts from the Manorville murders are relevant to the GB4, especially since Jessica Taylor's torso was found in Manorville and other body parts belonging to her were found with the GB4 bodies. Some would say a second SK put JT,s parts at the Ocean Beach location after the GB4 were found to confuse LE but LE has stated the these part had been there so long they had plants growing through them.

 

[Redbird]

There is a different thread for the Atlantic City murders which happened in 2006 and was discussed on WS at the time. There are some who think the cases are connected because of similarities between the two. I believe this was even mentioned on the 48 hour special (or one of those specials). Not as many people think they are connected. I think if you will take the time to read the earlier threads you will understand how some of this fits together. WS and the mods are very good at keeping things cohesive, the best.

 

[Just K]

Some people have decided that the two (GB4 and AC) are unrelated while many of us believe that LI (GB4) and Atlantic City 4 are definitely related...if nothing else through organized crime or sex trafficking.

The name of this thread is "Possible connection betw. the GB4, AC and other murders"

Ruling out AC just because of the time span is not necessarily relevant, if the victims are connected through anything like pimps, strip clubs, the way they were recruited, a common drug dealer or supplier, etc. It is like "throwing the baby out with the bath water," IMO. There is no proof that any of these killings are the work of three, two, or even any serial killer.

Everyone of these victims has been caught up in some petty and/or felonious crimes or been directly linked to someone who has been arrested for the same. Many of the back stories on these victims have linked back to the Bronx, Brooklyn and/or LI. All of these locations have been in the news as associated with sex trafficking, drug busts, retail and Identity Theft Rings and the like.

The more I research the backgrounds of the players at the bottom of the ladder, the more I believe that this all goes back to some type of organized crime (gangs or rings.) The longer I am here the more I lean toward the men and women victims having gotten caught on the wrong side of the organization and are either killed for punishment and/or may even be used as an example to others to stay on track.

If the burlap has any meaning it may simply be that the person in charge of disposing of the bodies has either a sick fantasy with dead bodies or has some sort of compassion to give them at least some sort of burial place. It could simply be that burlap is easily accessible to him and good camouflage.

The person who disposes of the suitcase, trashbags, coolers and other containers, IMO, has no compassion.

Until the cases are proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to be unrelated this thread and all the posts are, IMO, relevant to the title of this thread.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Lmao! I sent a message to sosueme suggesting that they be split up...who knows...it makes more sense though probaly a lot of work tho!

Well, and between your last post and this one, you see the reason, why it is so hard to get rid of those "things". But seriously, different kill frequency, different ritual, inconsistent timelines, the simple recognition, that the killer would have at least two times de-escalated and then re-escalated to make this whole connection theory happen, all of this is in contradiction profilers learned in the last ab. 40 years about serial killers. It is against all, anyone who has ever studied the subject, ever learned. But then, everyone has the right to the own opinion and the constitution never asked for that opinion to be based on facts or even reality. So, all is good, relax people!

 

[Just K]

This article, which I posted on the Local Knowledge Thread, contains some very compelling information about how taxis are being used in the sex trafficking scene in NY. It is well worth the read.

Early on, some members wondered if a taxi driver might be involved in these killings. In the case of MB, I always wondered if she waited for a taxi. MW, MBB and AC may have gotten into a taxi. That would certainly not have been noticed or would not have stood out in anyone's mind...especially in Downtown NYC, The Bronx or Brooklyn.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/ny...f=prostitution

here is a snippet of the article:

"City Plans to Target Cabdrivers Who Join in Sex Trafficking
By VIVIAN YEE
Published: June 12, 2012


"They arrange prostitutes’ schedules and ferry them to hotels for appointments, drum up clients for pimps and pocket half the proceeds.


...Advocates for sex trafficking victims say that they have seen the number of reported trafficking cases rise over the past several years, and that drivers have increasingly figured in the victims’ stories. One sex trafficking victim who testified before a joint hearing of the City Council’s Transportation and Women’s Issues Committees in December estimated that she had worked with 70 drivers who had brought her to 5,000 clients, who often found the drivers’ numbers in newspaper advertisements or cards passed out on the street. ..."


and this about branding the women and girls:

The drivers were accused of ferrying the women to upscale hotels and clubs to solicit clients, telling the women about clients’ sexual preferences, and taking a cut of the profits. The women, whom the operation’s leaders tattooed with their street names and a bar code, were allowed to keep a few dollars each night to buy food and other necessities, according to prosecutors."

 

[Justiceforever]

There is a different thread for the Atlantic City murders which happened in 2006 and was discussed on WS at the time. There are some who think the cases are connected because of similarities between the two. I believe this was even mentioned on the 48 hour special (or one of those specials). Not as many people think they are connected. I think if you will take the time to read the earlier threads you will understand how some of this fits together. WS and the mods are very good at keeping things cohesive, the best.

Thank u...Its A Lot of info...and I AM reading thru it all...if I thanked it I read it!