Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[Estelle]

I actually thought she said "porky" which did not make sense to me.

So what she said was "quirky" or kinky sex. What's wrong with that if it is mutual? However, I got the impression that they could have been sensual but not sexual. Is that being quirky?

 

[jay-jay]

'Porky', LOL! :happydance:

 

[Estelle]

Judge Dennis Davis sent shockwaves through the South African literary community recently with his review of Behind the Door: The Oscar Pistorius and Reeva Steenkamp Story by Mandy Wiener and Barry Bateman. Davis has contributed that rare thing to our local literary scene — the negative book review. It was not only negative, but excoriating.

Davis takes Behind the Door and flays it alive, boils it in oil, and tosses its cold corpse out to the vultures. It is impossible to overstate how rare such a review is of a South African book.

http://newswall.co.za/news/latest/t...fvrjp.1039984?utm_source=email&utm_channel=xx

 

[Estelle]

Breathless Oscar book muddles law

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-11-06-breathless-oscar-book-muddles-law

 

[Estelle]

.. she's surely not just referring to that whatsapp message where Reeva asks OP where he would like to have sex and gives three options .. the couch, the stairs, and was it the kitchen counter (I forget now?) .. and OP answers 'the couch'?

Methinks that April Jones could have very conservative views about sex.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Breathless Oscar book muddles law

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-11-06-breathless-oscar-book-muddles-law

Interesting. I found the book to particularly suit my needs as it is the only one I've come across to provide facts which were not in the public domain at the time of its release. It does get a few facts wrong, but not many.

 

[Cherwell]

On which side of the bed did OP sleep on 12 Feb 2013 (the previous night)?

From trial cross examination (p313)

Nel: Now have you been sleeping on the left hand side of the bed since you were injured on your shoulder?
OP: Yes, on and off. Some days when I have training it hurts. Some nights Reeva does not sleep over at my house, or did not sleep over at my place and then I would sleep in the middle of the bed, but on... during that period if I could not sleep... if Reeva was not sleeping at my house I may have slept on the right hand side, but faced the curtains. But I would not climb into bed and face away from her. So I climbed into bed on the left and I had been sleeping on the left during that time.

From bail hearing:

13:59 PM - 20 Feb 2013 Mandy Wiener @mandywiener
#OscarPistorius Roux: You may not have seen the accused had medical patch on shoulder as he had a problem with shoulder. Botha: No I didn't.

#OscarPistorius Roux: He slept on the left side that evening because of the shoulder problem. He usually sleeps on the right side.

#OscarPistorius Roux: Reeva also spent the previous night there. She usually sleeps on the other side and did the previous night.

I'm trying to find if any other reporters picked this up or if MW has misrepresented what Roux said. Of course, OP would say Roux has misunderstood what he told him.

I think one needs to tread carefully here. It is rarely made clear from whose viewpoint the speaker is defining right and left. Are they standing at the foot of the bed facing it, or are they in the bed? Personally I always think of right and left sides of the bed as though I am in the bed.

This is something that needs to be established from the start of any article, conversation or interview. It's so ambiguous.

 

[Cherwell]

Methinks that April Jones could have very conservative views about sex.

It's Aphrodite, not April, if you'll forgive me for the correction.

I'm not overly impressed with her knowledge of the case, going by that interview.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ius-and-Reeva-Steenkamp-Loved-like-crazy.html

Oscar Pistorius and Reeva Steenkamp: 'Loved like crazy'
The couple had only been dating four months but friends said they were clearly in love and happy, despite mentions of rows and Pistorius’s temper

A timeline of their love, I had never read before.


http://www.africanman.co.za/?p=3185

MANtalk Were Oscar and Reeva having sex?

...... and if not planning to sleep together, then playing with the idea. It doesn’t mean they were, but doesn’t mean they weren’t.

 

[Fuskier]

Exactly. When asked why he used Black Talons, his disingenuous and deceitful answer was that it was the type of ammo for his gun. No, his gun did not specifically require Black Talons. OP wanted to avoid saying he chose that ammo because of its horrific killing power*.

Taking this fact one step further, one can infer his INTENT to KILL that night.

One shot might have been an “accident”.
Four was an execution.

* What does it say about OP that he chose ammo that’s so devastating that it’s banned from military use in wartime?

In my opinion this post is to the very point: " ... he chose that ammo because of its horrific killing power".

 

[Mr Fossil]

I think one needs to tread carefully here. It is rarely made clear from whose viewpoint the speaker is defining right and left. Are they standing at the foot of the bed facing it, or are they in the bed? Personally I always think of right and left sides of the bed as though I am in the bed.

This is something that needs to be established from the start of any article, conversation or interview. It's so ambiguous.

True but fortunately not relevant in this instance.

The point Roux makes is that Reeva usually sleeps on the 'other side' (to the side she slept on the night of the 13th) and did the previous night (the 12th), so OP did not sleep on the left the previous night like he says he did in court. Where did Roux get this information from to be able to make such a statement? It must have been from OP. Left or right doesn't matter, it's simply that she changed sides between the two nights. If we like, we can then apply left and right after that to visualise the actual sides, with the benefit of other evidence (e.g. from the trial where the sides are defined as looking from the foot of the bed).

Roux's statement brings into question OP's desire to sleep on the left at all so as "not to face away from her" if that is precisely what he did the night before. The position of many of the items on the floor suggests that if they slept at all that night it was with OP on the right, by the window. Or is the arrangement we see from the previous night and either or both of them didn't sleep in that bed on the night of the 13th?

 

[lolastareyes]

Just thought I'd share this review of June's book:

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/reeva-a-mothers-story-by-june-steenkamp/

Here is an interview with Melinda Ferguson, the co-author of the book with Patrica Taylor. Just click on Thursday and then click on part two

http://cliffcentral.com/podcasts/

Here is an interview with John Carlin about his new Oscar book

http://www.capetalk.co.za/articles/989/chase-your-shadow-oscar-pistorius-s-tragic

 

[Val1]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ius-and-Reeva-Steenkamp-Loved-like-crazy.html

Oscar Pistorius and Reeva Steenkamp: 'Loved like crazy'
The couple had only been dating four months but friends said they were clearly in love and happy, despite mentions of rows and Pistorius’s temper

A timeline of their love, I had never read before.


http://www.africanman.co.za/?p=3185

MANtalk Were Oscar and Reeva having sex?

...... and if not planning to sleep together, then playing with the idea. It doesn’t mean they were, but doesn’t mean they weren’t.

That message your last link showed raises more questions than it answered imo, I'm assuming(hopefully correctly) that it's from OP to RS because of the house reference... so is that what RS meant by having let go with him(also was that during the Cape Town "holiday" after which he apparently changed?), was it a one time event that she wasn't certain she wanted to repeat(possibly due to the rumours of who OP had spent time with in the Cape when RS wasn't there), who? was never sulky or moody(his previous gfs?), and then the whole needing to be put first for it to work(to which RS had apparently subsequently told him(referring to the previous link you posted)). :/
http://www.africanman.co.za/?p=3185

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ius-and-Reeva-Steenkamp-Loved-like-crazy.html

But Steenkamp was keen to stand on her own feet, telling Pistorius in January: “I'm just very set on maintaining my own independence and concentrating on my career this year and giving you your space to train and be the best you can be. Please don't see that as a sign of me distancing myself - It's respect for us as individuals.”

 

[ColonelMustard]

...I don't recall anything being made of his mother re-marrying when OP was 14. Not to who, or whether that impacted on him going to boarding school, being at loose ends and not going home on weekends or whatever, as well as whether that contributed to his father not only not being around much but to his moving away after his ex-wife passed...

Here's a beautiful 10 min video tribute to OP's mom.

Info on 2nd wedding / 2nd husband + photo of them and kids at the wedding, itself, at 7:30.

http://www.enca.com/sheila-pistorius-she-taught-oscar-never-give

Other questions you had were discussed in an interview/s with OP. I'm not sure which; I watched them all.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Mr. Fossil,

I'd love to read any of the transcriptions you've written - heck, anything, really! AND... thanks for the link!

 

[JudgeJudi]

That message your last link showed raises more questions than it answered imo, I'm assuming(hopefully correctly) that it's from OP to RS because of the house reference... so is that what RS meant by having let go with him(also was that during the Cape Town "holiday" after which he apparently changed?), was it a one time event that she wasn't certain she wanted to repeat(possibly due to the rumours of who OP had spent time with in the Cape when RS wasn't there), who? was never sulky or moody(his previous gfs?), and then the whole needing to be put first for it to work(to which RS had apparently subsequently told him(referring to the previous link you posted)). :/
http://www.africanman.co.za/?p=3185

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ius-and-Reeva-Steenkamp-Loved-like-crazy.html

Hahaha. I have absolutely no doubt it's from OP because he says "and sometimes I just feel venerable" Only he would say that. "I just felt like something was up and I just need to feel that what I'm giving is coming back. They were never sulky or moody, I can't stand that. I'd like that, it sounds pretty serious and I'd rather do it sooner than later". This is a very strange message to say the least. It sounds like Reeva spent the previous night at his home but something happened that caused her to leave and he's trying to pour oil on troubled waters.

"It makes me smile so much cause I know you putting me first. I just want that cause I know I need that for it to work". Says it all, doesn't it. She must put him first, ahead of herself and everything else for it work. ME, ME, ME. I note the date is 4 weeks before he killed her. If only she'd listened to her head instead of to her heart.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Mr. Fossil,

I'd love to read any of the transcriptions you've written - heck, anything, really! AND... thanks for the link!

Thanks, I'll try and get them together and provide a link in the next few days.

In the meantime I'm continuing to work on the bail statement (part of my version analysis project), analysing every line. It's amazing that I am able to provide a commentary on so many of the lines in it, even ones that appear very straight forward. I'll be posting a link to the full document with commentary soon but will provide examples along the way.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-28349666

Reeva Steenkamp, my friend, shot by Oscar Pistorius

Some believe this need to save and protect played a hand in her relationship with Mr Pistorius, who the world has learned was insecure about his disability in spite of his "superhuman" persona on the world athletics stage.

Ms Smith says it upsets her when people dismiss Ms Steenkamp's messages to Mr Pistorius, in which she said she was sometimes scared of him.

Referring to the relationship that supposedly fuelled her need to protect women from abusive men, Ms Smith says: "For Reeva I think it was mainly mental, I don't know that he was physically abusive but definitely emotionally abusive.

"When she was with Wayne she always felt she had to cover up. She would always be on these fad diets with him. She lost a lot of weight," she says.


I think, while Reeva was with OP, she again felt to have to cover up. Therefore family and friends didn't know about the true difficulties in this again unhealthy liaison.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Patricia Visagie ‏@Patrweezy 29 Min.Vor 29 Minuten

Main accused in #DRC coup case, Ettienne Kabila released on R10 000 bail. #sabcnews



Oh, no more water flooding for OP's jail cell ...

 

[JudgeJudi]

It was interesting to read the review by Judge Davis. He has a number of issues with “Behind the Door”:

• “The book begins like a crime novel”.

• The authors failed to give much guidance to the reader regarding two key issues at the bail hearing: 1) the unusual ploy by an accused of providing a full account of the event, which could be used in the trial and which made the state’s case much easier, and 2) chief magistrate Desmond Nair’s finding of numerous improbabilities in OP’s version of events.

• Sweeping claims such as this: “While the law is a hybrid and the Roman Dutch system is the bedrock, broadly speaking the law governing criminal acts follows the English model.” Presumably, the authors think that courts need only apply English law to determine the meaning of dolus eventualis”.

• In their haste to get the book published, the authors didn’t distil the essence of the evidence and help to develop the understanding of a lay reader. Instead, the book provides lengthy and uninterrogated summaries of the court record, as well as significant extracts from it.

• The way the authors engage with criminal law by making use of both Prof Grant (who he says does a good job) and Kelly Phelps, and in fact most of his vitriol is directed towards Kelly Phelps.

(a) What she says “borders on the incomprehensible”.
(b) Her analysis of OP’s testimony “which any lawyer would see was hugely unimpressive (as is evident from the findings of Judge Thokozile Masipa)”. Phelps suggests, “No person will endure the kind of aggressive cross-examination that he endured and emerged unscathed. Nor does a court expect a perfect performance. It will be a question of balance – taking all of these times on the stand into account, does the Bench think that the fundamental aspects of his story are true?” Judge Davis says "This is truly banal".

He says there’s confusion in Phelps’s analysis of dolus eventualis, which she describes as “such a technical part of the law”. Judge Davis says “any lawyer who has read Justice Fritz Brand’s luminous exposition of dolus eventualis in State vs Humphreys (2013) would be able to guide a lay reader as to its meaning and scope”.

IMO it's about time somebody took Kelly Phelps to task. The one thing I'm surprised Judge Davis didn't mention here was her complete and utter bias.

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-11-06-breathless-oscar-book-muddles-law