RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[Zuri]

I have been reading up on this case and on the threads here to gain a better understanding of what happened. You all are so knowledgeable. All these years I thought that the police screwed everything up. I never paid much attention as it was so painful to think about while having kids the same age as JBR.

I had some thoughts now and some questions.
I have read the autopsy report. I could not find mention of body organ temps which would indicate time of death. There was no mention of swelling of the scalp/head that I could find. That leads me to believe that the blow to the head and strangulation were in rapid succession. A beating heart would have caused the scalp/head to swell if the head blow did indeed come first. Is this the common belief/theory?

Another thought I had was about the visits to the pediatrician. 27 times in3 years is excessive. Did PR have Munchausen by Proxy? There seemed to be some secondary gain by taking JBR to the pediatrician that much.

I read that 3 experts said that JBR had indications of sexual abuse. Is that definitive? What caused the abrasions on her neck/chest area and thigh? That was very confusing for me. Was BR a large 9 year old? I did not find mention of him being active in sports. All I read was that he was into Nintendo. I don't know if he was strong enough or smart enough to inflict the injuries that JBR sustained.

I am now leaning towards both JR and PR being complicit in the death of their child. I believe PR wrote that ransom note. I don't believe their story for 1 second. Their hiring an obfuscation team of lawyers, media, PR, investigators is mind boggling. Offering a 50K award when they were worth millions is stunning. JR wanting to fly his family that day to Michigan piloting a plane himself? Too many of these scenarios make no sense. JMV

 

[KoldKase]

Regards BR, and whether he was also subject to some kind of abuse, I tend not to think of sexual abuse, but abuse in general. When I read about BR’s toileting problems, not just bedwetting, but also evidence of soiling (Kolar reports that large pajama bottoms assumed to be BR’s were found in JB’s bedroom, with fecal matter), I’m left wondering, was JB the only one PR punished about this. As a reminder, the housekeeper said that PR would take JB into the bathroom and lots of screaming and yelling would take place. From what I’ve understood about encopresis, it may be a medical issue, from constipation and never having the time to be on a schedule. It can also be a sign of abuse. And it may also be a psychological demonstration of anger. From what’s been written about BR, he seemed pretty normal to his friends and teachers. Grades were fine. So, was it just in the home that this anger came out? We’ve never heard whether PR punished BR harshly for toileting issues, but I have to assume she did.

Recently, to give myself more knowledge about incest, I’ve read Marilyn Van Derbur Atler’s book on recovering her life after the sexual abuse from her father from the age of 5 through 18 until she went to college. One of the very interesting items brought out in the book is that many who were incested by a father, sibling, or even someone outside the family, were extremely angry with their mother for not preventing the abuse. It may be that JB was “acting out” more frequently with PR, not solely on the basis of the Pageants? Lastly, it took Marilyn Van Derbur Atler until she was in her mid-20’s, before she could admit to the abuse. For some people it’s even a longer journey. Maybe BR will be able to face some things as he gets older. We can only hope. moo

Van Derbur's book was painful to read, but anyone who believes they know what goes on inside a "nice" family taken at face value needs to do so. There are numerous parallels between the lives of Patsy and Marilyn. I have no knowledge that Patsy was sexually abused, but Marilyn is an expert and trailblazer in advocating for sexual abuse victims, and she knows exactly of what she speaks.

Forensics and the LE investigation can tell us a lot about what was going on before that night and what happened to JonBenet on that night. What it hasn't told us is exactly to what extent any or all of the three remaining family members in the house were involved.

I do have one word of caution: Linda Hoffman-Pugh was a helpful witness for LE in this case, but anything attributed to her from her time under the use of Darnay Hoffman (no relation) is unreliable, IMO. I believe we learned at some point some of the tabloid articles about the case were leaks sold by Ramsey shill Jameson; Darnay was one of her sources, as well, it turned out.

About the abuser of JonBenet Ramsey: I am sure someone in the family was sexually abusing JonBenet.

There is no doubt, as the autopsy is public record, that six year old JonBenet certainly had a damaged hymen, bed-wetting problems, and healing vaginal injuries: that's proof enough for me she was sexually abused before the night she was murdered.

I can't imagine Patsy didn't at least know about this because there would have been obvious signs: bleeding, inappropriate behaviors, and the child could have told or been asked about it herself. An upset Patsy did complain to a close friend that JonBenet was "flirting" inappropriately. When Patsy and Dr. Beuf claimed not to remember what Patsy called his office about three times on Dec. 17th after hours, that tells me a lot, so that's part of the body of evidence and pattern of events I consider important.

It's significant that JR said his lawyers were protecting him as the prime suspect in the beginning. That was because of the autopsy results determining sexual abuse, IMO. How did JR or his lawyers know about this so quickly, long before the autopsy report had even been written?

Because the Ramseys knew about it before the murder, IMO. Patsy at least absolutely had to know. Yet even she never admitted that to LE in any interview. She lied and evaded and obfuscated the investigation at every turn.

But even knowing that still doesn't prove with evidence which one committed the sexual abuse before that night or during the murder.

As Van Derbur wrote, if her parents thought she was going to go public with her father's sexual abuse of her they'd have killed her and then gone to lunch.

Was that the dynamic of the Ramseys?

 

[Mollyandme]

i have spent a lot of time reading all the threads here about Jon Benet's murder and what I think happened, I didn't want to post until I felt somewhat informed enough to make an educated guess as to what could have happened.

I believe Patsy killed Jon Benet in a fit of rage after finding out her husband was sexually abusing Jon Benet. Instead of taking it out on her husband, I believe Patsy blamed sweet, innocent Jon Benet. I think Patsy definitely wrote the ransom note and I think John Ramsey went along with the cover up because he was sexually abusing Jon Benet.

Thats the gist of my theory, which I believe I read is shared by some others on here. I will post later with the forensic reasons why i feel this way, I just need to organize it in a cohesive, understandable post.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Patsy was the one digitally penetrating jonBenet.

 

[Venom]

Patsy was the one digitally penetrating jonBenet.

May I ask how you know that?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Blue Bottle, I have heard you say this before. I just wondered if you could explain how you developed this theory. I was thinking your psychological training or religious beliefs or maybe work with cancer patients. I was just wondering.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing. I just think it is an interesting take you have on JBR murder.

I read art history, particularly the art of the disturbed and how dream symbolism is produced in their behavior, in their creative life, in their art. Just read Thomas Hariss' book Red Dragon. All the ideas are in there. All I did was apply that approach to this case. The psychotic thinks a destructive act is creative, it will change them or the world and very often they are lost in some sort of literature that is fantasy replacement for reality. This case has all those elements.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

May I ask how you know that?

By reading books.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have been reading up on this case and on the threads here to gain a better understanding of what happened. You all are so knowledgeable. All these years I thought that the police screwed everything up. I never paid much attention as it was so painful to think about while having kids the same age as JBR.

I had some thoughts now and some questions.
I have read the autopsy report. I could not find mention of body organ temps which would indicate time of death. There was no mention of swelling of the scalp/head that I could find. That leads me to believe that the blow to the head and strangulation were in rapid succession. A beating heart would have caused the scalp/head to swell if the head blow did indeed come first. Is this the common belief/theory?

Another thought I had was about the visits to the pediatrician. 27 times in3 years is excessive. Did PR have Munchausen by Proxy? There seemed to be some secondary gain by taking JBR to the pediatrician that much.

I read that 3 experts said that JBR had indications of sexual abuse. Is that definitive? What caused the abrasions on her neck/chest area and thigh? That was very confusing for me. Was BR a large 9 year old? I did not find mention of him being active in sports. All I read was that he was into Nintendo. I don't know if he was strong enough or smart enough to inflict the injuries that JBR sustained.

I am now leaning towards both JR and PR being complicit in the death of their child. I believe PR wrote that ransom note. I don't believe their story for 1 second. Their hiring an obfuscation team of lawyers, media, PR, investigators is mind boggling. Offering a 50K award when they were worth millions is stunning. JR wanting to fly his family that day to Michigan piloting a plane himself? Too many of these scenarios make no sense. JMV

You are correct in noting NO organ temps. The coroner failed to perform TWO tests upon encountering the body. One was the liver stab (which would have recorded core body temp) for the process of algor mortis which would help determine TOD and the second was the extraction of a sample of vitreous fluid in the eyeball (which would have given a reading on potassium levels there- also useful in determining TOD).
There was no scalp or head swelling. There was only very mild narrowing and flattening of the sulci and gyri (the lobes and spaces between them) in the brain. This indicated mild swelling.
I agree Patsy wrote the note. From handwriting to linguistics, it is her all the way- possibly JR contributing some content.
Nearly every forensic expert who either attended the autopsy or reviewed its results agreed there was sexual abuse- likely digital penetration, according to the coroner who performed the autopsy. He reported this to LE present at the autopsy. Blood is not a natural substance in the vagina of a 6-year old girl. It was present in JB's vagina. There was also bruising and an eroded hymen. Also, a fluoroscopy of her thighs and pubic area indicated her own blood had been wiped away from the area. Each of these alone would indicate sexual abuse. Taken as a whole, it is irrefutable.
The abrasion on her neck was simple the red, parchment-like triangular shaped mark on the front of her throat. This is a very common thing in strangulation victims. It is the result of blood pooling under the skin at a pressure point. The other round abrasions are still a puzzle. They LOOK like cigarette burns, but probably looked different in person. The coroner did not describe them as burns and no cause for them has ever been identified.
BR was not a particularly big 9-year old. He was 2 weeks shy of his 10th birthday when this happened. How different the investigation might have been if this had happened after that.

 

[Zuri]

Patsy was the one digitally penetrating jonBenet.

I thought this as well, but not for the very academically intelligent way you posted. I think PR used her fingers to inflict pain every time she had to clean her daughter up after being incontinent. She couldn't inflict overt damage as that would interfere with the pageants and fulfilling her dreams via proxy. I truly believe PR had Munchausen by Proxy and big time insecurities. JMV

 

[Chelly]

I thought this as well, but not for the very academically intelligent way you posted. I think PR used her fingers to inflict pain every time she had to clean her daughter up after being incontinent. She couldn't inflict overt damage as that would interfere with the pageants and fulfilling her dreams via proxy. I truly believe PR had Munchausen by Proxy and big time insecurities. JMV

Zuri, I think there is a good chance PR was inflicting injury when cleaning up JB by digitally penetrating her as punishment for bedwetting and soiling. While I believe that PR had mental issues, I don't think her behavior presented as MSbP.

 

[DeDee]

The theory presupposes PR was shocked at what she saw, which in turn means she didn't know about the prior abuse either.

Nope. The staging alone tells me she was no horrified shocked mother protecting her baby.

I think she already knew what was going on, in fact participated, if not with the actual sexual abuse, then with the associated ritual. Maybe bringing her to him, keeping her quiet, holding her down, cleaning her afterwards, punishing her if she cried or kicked.

I think PR is the one who took her to that basement, I think that's why the torch was down there. It was part of the punishment to shut her in the dark if she acted up. Maybe that was the night he finally tried intercourse, who knows. It was Christmas. :sick:

The possibility of Patsy holding her daughter down for John's sexual benefit is too difficult to consider. Any sexual abuse is difficult to consider but the evidence is in JonBenet's AR. Reconciling the appearance of JB in the mature burlesque pageant costumes with her also needing to wear a diaper is not easy to do; however, both she and her brother had symptoms of sexual abuse.

I find it improbable that Patsy intended to hit her husband but missed and cracked her daughter's skull instead. Perhaps, she encountered them while John's private part was in her daughter's mouth and she hit JonBenet to make her stop that. Only, she hit her child's head too hard.

I read once that John contacted McGuckin Hardware to request an itemized receipt for the American Express purchases that Patsy made on Dec. 2 & 9. Coincidentally, LE was at the hardware store at that same time. IIRC, there was not an itemized receipt available for McGuckin's to fax to John; however, I believe he was searching for evidence that his wife had indeed purchased the white cord.

Fibers from Patsy's clothing were consistent with fibers found in the knots of the white cord. That places her at the body. Someone pulled that garrote tightly. Very tightly. Sadly, it was one of her own parents (PDI).

Has anyone discovered how the small abrasions that look like burn marks on her little body occurred? Were the marks involved in the death or from an earlier time?

MOO

 

[Mollyandme]

Patsy was the one digitally penetrating jonBenet.

I just read an article on mother-daughter sexual abuse in which they discuss (on page 4) the interpersonal dynamics of this specific mother-daughter sexual abuse. When I read it, I saw several factors that I feel fit with this case. Here is the link, please feel free to read it, I think it is definitely a possibility that Patsy was the one digitally penetrating Jon Benet:

"The Best Kept Secret: Mother-Daughter Sexual Abuse"
By Julie Brand, M.S.

http://www.nationalcac.org/professi...s2009/brand, julie - the best kept secret.pdf

The author works for an organization called Child Abuse Prevention Education and Recovery.

After reading the article, the factors I see that could apply to this case are: Dual Distortions (Jon Benet's over the top pagents and Patsy looking at her as an object)

Psychological Control (I could go on and on about this one)

Early Onset (starting this early so Jon Benet wouldn't immediately realize that this behavior is completely wrong and not normal)

Isolation (wasn't patsy hesitant for Jon Benet to have friends over, I believe I read this in this thread, also, if John Ramsey was working a lot he wouldn't be around to catch on right away)


There's a lot more at the link I posted, I recommend reading it, even if you feel it doesn't apply to this case, it's a very interesting read and very easy read all broken up into categories and lists.

 

[Mollyandme]

IMO Patsy was a narcissist obsessed with presenting as picture perfect.

Narcissists do not view their children as individuals with their own thoughts, feelings and opinions but rather extensions of themselves.

Patsy was far from the picture perfect image she projected. She was messy. She couldn't even remember when she last bathed JonBenet. She allowed anyone within ear shot to respond to her daughters calls from the bathroom that she needed wiping. She was detached from both of her children and when JonBenet started voicing her own opinions Patsy struggled with that.

So when you say she loved that child, I do not believe she loved her in a healthy way.... Instead she loved her like only a narcissist does.

Linda, I hope you don't mind that I brought this post over from the other thread. I was reading there and I think this post is the PERFECT description of Patsy Ramsey. it also touches on some of the things the woman in the article I posted in my previous post talks about. I hope you don't mind that I brought it over here, I just thought everyone in this thread would enjoy reading it

 

[Mollyandme]

I thought this as well, but not for the very academically intelligent way you posted. I think PR used her fingers to inflict pain every time she had to clean her daughter up after being incontinent. She couldn't inflict overt damage as that would interfere with the pageants and fulfilling her dreams via proxy. I truly believe PR had Munchausen by Proxy and big time insecurities. JMV

i agree with this one million percent. i'm starting to change my opinion that John Ramsey was the one sexually abusing Jon Benet. The more I read, the more I think it was Patsy. I agree with the Munchausen by Proxy. I had a case just like this when I worked in the intake department of Child Protective Services. It was one of my first cases. The mother was continually bringing the child into the doctor for all sorts of incontinence issues, vaginal infections, etc... Thank god this doctor called it in after the third time in 4 months the mother brought the child in. It ended up having to be referred to the specialized child sexual abuse department in our county CPS department. I didn't hear anything else about the case until the mother's name was on the news for being arrested for sexual abuse a month later. I remember the father had NO idea what was going on. This was six years ago. My mom is a pediatric nurse practitioner and she said over her 20 years there they also had one case like this. Although it's not common, it does happen. And IMO, Patsy fits the profile of the type of mother who would do this.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Thanks for posting this material. I have been posting this type of psychological analysis of Patsy for many years on various forums. This is the truth of who Patsy was and what she did.

For the advanced students of psychology Patsy was not a classic pathological narcissist, her mother Nedra was. Patsy was a borderline. There is a difference between the ego structure of the borderline and the narcissist. Both are intrusive and manipulative but the narcissist has a strong central ego structure that will seek to include other people (egos) within a sphere of influence. The borderline will cross boundaries and identify with other people (egos) because they have a weak ego structure and use other's in place of their own.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The narcissistic parent will take away a child's ego by repeatedly making decisions for them, in effect denying the child's ego activity and stunting it's development with the result of the child identitfying with the mother's ego.

In Patsy's case the example of this is her response to John's marriage proposal: she said "I don't know. I'll have to go ask my mother."

Another example is Thomas' observation that Patsy had an identity fusion with JonBenet.

The story of The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie is one of a growing child (Sandy Stranger) awakening to the awareness of the harmful effects of a narcissistic authority figure (Brodie) and attempting to extricate herself from the shpere of influence.

 

[Darlene733510]

I am still pondering over what caused the head injury to JB. By chance, I saw an episode of Law And Order last week. A man who died had two head injuries. One of them near his temple, which they thought did not kill him. He had another injury at the back of his head. This was the injury which they decided had caused his death. The final conclusion about this injury was that his head was slammed against a concrete floor.
I am still wondering if JB's head could have been slammed against a hard surface, maybe in the bathroom, kitchen, bedroom, or anywhere else. I thought I saw some carpeting in the basement. If there was no padding under the carpet, I would think that would prevent her skull from not indicating the injury, until it was found by the coroner.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda, I hope you don't mind that I brought this post over from the other thread. I was reading there and I think this post is the PERFECT description of Patsy Ramsey. it also touches on some of the things the woman in the article I posted in my previous post talks about. I hope you don't mind that I brought it over here, I just thought everyone in this thread would enjoy reading it

I don't mind at all. I'm flattered

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

By ending the life of JonBenet Patsy took her into herself; the ultimate identity fusion. A true narcissist would continue to manipulate the object in the pageants over the coming years to feed what the narcissist values most; the power of it's ego.

By ending the life of JonBenet the borderline Patsy fed what she valued and needed the most; identity. The end goal was an identity with a supernatural being.

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

I am still pondering over what caused the head injury to JB. By chance, I saw an episode of Law And Order last week. A man who died had two head injuries. One of them near his temple, which they thought did not kill him. He had another injury at the back of his head. This was the injury which they decided had caused his death. The final conclusion about this injury was that his head was slammed against a concrete floor.
I am still wondering if JB's head could have been slammed against a hard surface, maybe in the bathroom, kitchen, bedroom, or anywhere else. I thought I saw some carpeting in the basement. If there was no padding under the carpet, I would think that would prevent her skull from not indicating the injury, until it was found by the coroner.

The blow to the head was done by Patsy as a symbolic send off to the next world. The object used was padded or the head was covered. The blow to the head to send to the next world is a common theme in mythology and is part of the rituals of the Masons. Don Paugh was a Mason. Patsy would have been familiar with the story through that at least.