Rebecca Zahau Wrongful Death/ADAM SHACKNAI FOUND RESPONSIBLE #5

[Verboten]

Guys, Can anyone give me any suggestions of examples of cases I can read into where suicide as COD was recategorized to undetermined ?

...any cases you can recommend me to look where ‘new evidence’ was utilized, and what actually constitutes ‘new evidence’?

Are either of these considered ‘new’ by the legal definition...

***The deep bruise on RZ back was only discovered at the second autopsy (thought to be caused during restraint, possibly caused by a knee)

*** Timestamped and sequential photographs of the body on the grass show unexplained lividity which was not considered at the autopsy.

(The lividity in the body was evaluated upon time of arrival of the ME at scene rather than the time of actual discovery of the body ( as evidenced in testimony at trial by lead detective of the time the photographs were taken, shortly after discovery of the body)

I'm just a lay person, but just because Gore said he'd look at "new" evidence, doesn't mean much to me. I don't see any reason why there would be any LEGAL requirement that something meet a *legal definition of new* in order to be evidence to consider in changing the cause of death. I would *think* a new look at, or new interpretation of, evidence that already exists in the case should be sufficient. If the evidence existed, but was ignored, it should be evaluated, imo.

I've heard of cases being changed before. Off the top of my head, I seem to recall one on Dateline recently where the COD was changed from suicide to murder to suicide (or undetermined) based on attorneys discussions with M.E. regarding house measurements--how far the lady would have moved before falling. There would seem to be plenty here to, at minimum, change this to undetermined (if not murder). It should be as simple as telling the M.E.--hey, look more closely at this... Again, I have no legal understanding, but common sense would say to me that ANY evidence that supports a new determination--new or old--should be sufficient. Typically, it might be *new evidence* because M.E. was doing proper job in looking at existing evidence to begin with. That can't be said in this case.

 

[wyatt]

Meyers vs. Gore...interesting read.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sd-me-gore-firing-20180405-story.html

 

[Lezah]

Guys, Can anyone give me any suggestions of examples of cases I can read into where suicide as COD was recategorized to undetermined ?

...any cases you can recommend me to look where ‘new evidence’ was utilized, and what actually constitutes ‘new evidence’?

Are either of these considered ‘new’ by the legal definition...

***The deep bruise on RZ back was only discovered at the second autopsy (thought to be caused during restraint, possibly caused by a knee)

*** Timestamped and sequential photographs of the body on the grass show unexplained lividity which was not considered at the autopsy.

(The lividity in the body was evaluated upon time of arrival of the ME at scene rather than the time of actual discovery of the body ( as evidenced in testimony at trial by lead detective of the time the photographs were taken, shortly after discovery of the body)

It looks like it would be enough....look at this case...


http://www.nj.gov/oag/newsreleases17/Amendment-to-Death-Certificate.pdf

Edited to add

“In the new death certificate, Dr. Falzon, the state medical examiner, also changed the ruling of "self-inflicted injuries" to "injuries of undetermined etiology."
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[Verboten]

It looks like it would be enough....look at this case...


http://www.nj.gov/oag/newsreleases17/Amendment-to-Death-Certificate.pdf

Edited to add

“In the new death certificate, Dr. Falzon, the state medical examiner, also changed the ruling of "self-inflicted injuries" to "injuries of undetermined etiology."
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See? There you go! Should be plenty sufficient.

 

[BBL]

Meyers vs. Gore...interesting read.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sd-me-gore-firing-20180405-story.html

That is interesting....

This caught my eye “I wish Dave would take a leave of absence and go work somewhere else,” Gore told editors and reporters at an editorial board meeting of The San Diego Union-Tribune."

I'm not sure how this works. Why would Gore be at an editorial board meeting of the Tribune?

 

[wyatt]

Meyers vs. Gore...interesting read.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/sd-me-gore-firing-20180405-story.html

P.S. Don't forget to browse the comments after the article, some include some bizarre (not sure if verified) accusations.

 

[NotAtAll]

I am so enjoying this moment, I am very joyful for the family.

I will not allow myself to be distracted, because no matter what anyone says to the contrary on this thread, or in the press or wherever...Adam Shacknai was found to be responsible for Rebecca’s death in a court of law.

For the family, I believe this has such a deep and very meaningful significance, it will bring them great comfort. No doubt well beyond that of the financial award, and I remain absolutely elated that they were victorious.

For six weeks the jury members saw every piece of evidence offered by Rebecca’s family, and Adam Shacknai had every opportunity, represented by what are described often as the best attorney’s in the country, to counter it.

He failed.

His team failed.

Rebecca and her family were victorious.

Not one of us here saw the evidence and arguments on both sides of this case in the manner of the jury, they were by far the best equipped to decide, and decide they did.

They decided, through the application of the law and by weighing all the evidence presented to them, that Adam Shacknai was responsible and liable for Rebecca’s death.

They shouted the world loud and clear that Adam Shacknai was responsible for Rebecca’s death. And what a cruel death it was.

My advice to those who believe in the Zahau’s cause...nothing can bring this beautiful woman, sister and daughter back, but we can enjoy these moments, rejoice in the happiness of the first stage of justice finally delivered, and let any bitterness and resentment from anyone who does not share your opinion simply wash over you.

Empty vessels usually make the most noise.

Be mindful too...there may well be a new sheriff in town very soon....and an appeal of a civil action may well be the very least of the defense teams worries....

Just my opinion...














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Excellent post, Lezah! I wish I could thank this post a thousand times over. But until such a button exists lol, I want to "personally" say "Thank you!" for always being such a gem and for the wonderful advice you offered above.

 

[Lezah]

I'm just a lay person, but just because Gore said he'd look at "new" evidence, doesn't mean much to me. I don't see any reason why there would be any LEGAL requirement that something meet a *legal definition of new* in order to be evidence to consider in changing the cause of death. I would *think* a new look at, or new interpretation of, evidence that already exists in the case should be sufficient. If the evidence existed, but was ignored, it should be evaluated, imo.

I've heard of cases being changed before. Off the top of my head, I seem to recall one on Dateline recently where the COD was changed from suicide to murder to suicide (or undetermined) based on attorneys discussions with M.E. regarding house measurements--how far the lady would have moved before falling. There would seem to be plenty here to, at minimum, change this to undetermined (if not murder). It should be as simple as telling the M.E.--hey, look more closely at this... Again, I have no legal understanding, but common sense would say to me that ANY evidence that supports a new determination--new or old--should be sufficient. Typically, it might be *new evidence* because M.E. was doing proper job in looking at existing evidence to begin with. That can't be said in this case.

I totally get what you’re saying Verboten, but I am assuming the argument for a criminal investigation by the sheriffs dept would be considerably leveraged by the death being recategorized as ‘undetermined’.

A new, unexplained injury, which could not be identified as self inflicted - such as the deep bruise on the back, could it be enough for the ME to modify the death certificate?

Imagine this press release...

“NEW INJURIES on the victim’s body, discovered by world renowned forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht and revealed at trial - were INCONSISTENT with Suicide”

Just my opinion...

 

[Mica]

P.S. Don't forget to browse the comments after the article, some include some bizarre (not sure if verified) accusations.

Interesting comments. Happy to see some mentioning Rebecca’s case and their negative comments connecting Gore.

 

[Lezah]

Excellent post, Lezah! I wish I could thank this post a thousand times over. But until such a button exists lol, I want to "personally" say "Thank you!" for always being such a gem and for the wonderful advice you offered above.

That’s very meaningful to me. Thankyou x

 

[*Lash*]

I am so enjoying this moment, I am very joyful for the family.

I will not allow myself to be distracted, because no matter what anyone says to the contrary on this thread, or in the press or wherever...Adam Shacknai was found to be responsible for Rebecca’s death in a court of law.

For the family, I believe this has such a deep and very meaningful significance, it will bring them great comfort. No doubt well beyond that of the financial award, and I remain absolutely elated that they were victorious.

For six weeks the jury members saw every piece of evidence offered by Rebecca’s family, and Adam Shacknai had every opportunity, represented by what are described often as the best attorney’s in the country, to counter it.

He failed.

His team failed.

Rebecca and her family were victorious.

Not one of us here saw the evidence and arguments on both sides of this case in the manner of the jury, they were by far the best equipped to decide, and decide they did.

They decided, through the application of the law and by weighing all the evidence presented to them, that Adam Shacknai was responsible and liable for Rebecca’s death.

They shouted the world loud and clear that Adam Shacknai was responsible for Rebecca’s death. And what a cruel death it was.

My advice to those who believe in the Zahau’s cause...nothing can bring this beautiful woman, sister and daughter back, but we can enjoy these moments, rejoice in the happiness of the first stage of justice finally delivered, and let any bitterness and resentment from anyone who does not share your opinion simply wash over you.

Empty vessels usually make the most noise.

Be mindful too...there may well be a new sheriff in town very soon....and an appeal of a civil action may well be the very least of the defense teams worries....

Just my opinion...


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:yourock:

Beautiful! Mary also talked about forgiveness at a time in her life where she has the right, imo, to be bitter. She is choosing a different path. When asked, Mary said, “Be honest, be truthful and reopen the case”.

 

[Lilibet]

Both times I’ve read Webb’s statement, the quote below has jumped out at me. Can someone explain what turned a mannequin into a “sex doll”? Or maybe not. This feels like another way to demean Rebecca IMO. And I suspect that’s how Adam viewed her...as a “custom-ordered sex doll.” When she didn’t cooperate, he brutalized her and killed her to keep her from telling anyone. His behavior at the press conference simply confirmed my impression that he is a bully who is used to having his way.

On top of that, plaintiffs’ grotesque trial stunts like bringing a custom-ordered sex doll with an exact likeness of Rebecca’s face into the courtroom, and hanging her naked body from a makeshift scaffold in front of the jury, was so vile and wildly prejudicial that it should never have been allowed to occur.

https://tribkswb.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/dan-webb-statement-on-shacknai-verdict-4-05-2018.docx

 

[BBL]

Both times I’ve read Webb’s statement, the quote below has jumped out at me. Can someone explain what turned a mannequin into a “sex doll”? Or maybe not. This feels like another way to demean Rebecca IMO. And I suspect that’s how Adam viewed her...as a “custom-ordered sex doll.” When she didn’t cooperate, he brutalized her and killed her to keep her from telling anyone. His behavior at the press conference simply confirmed my impression that he is a bully who is used to having his way.

On top of that, plaintiffs’ grotesque trial stunts like bringing a custom-ordered sex doll with an exact likeness of Rebecca’s face into the courtroom, and hanging her naked body from a makeshift scaffold in front of the jury, was so vile and wildly prejudicial that it should never have been allowed to occur.

https://tribkswb.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/dan-webb-statement-on-shacknai-verdict-4-05-2018.docx

I'm sorry, but it is so wrong that they would make a statement like that. To me it stinks of how the defense and Adam have viewed Rebecca all along. A sex slave (complete with rape by a knife handle). The dirty pool continues, however I think it will also continue to backfire. Nothing about the demonstration with the mannequin could remotely be viewed as sexual, imo. It demonstrated an incredibly sad moment. To try and spin it otherwise is pathetic in my book.

Webb and his team of pr sycophants are working overtime. Coronado is pretty much celebrating this finding of Adam causing Rebecca's death. The one or two I've come across that still say it was investigated properly are openly and admittedly law enforcement.

ETA: and WOW. I can't believe he is accusing the judge of making "a mountain of judicial errors"! IMO this press release is slanderous.

 

[Tortoise]

I don’t know if this article will help you .....

State medical examiner reverses suicide ruling in John Sheridan case

http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/01/state_medical_examiner_changes_death_ruling_for.html


New Jersey Medical Examiner Changes Former Cooper CEO's Death Certificate From 'Suicide' to 'Undetermined'

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...Sheridan-Cause-of-Death-Change-410652155.html

And another case...

Susan Winters case: coroner changes cause from suicide to undetermined

http://newsok.com/article/5544523

Also Sheena Morris

http://www.justice4sheena.com/

 

[Betty P]

Guys, Can anyone give me any suggestions of examples of cases I can read into where suicide as COD was recategorized to undetermined ?

...any cases you can recommend me to look where ‘new evidence’ was utilized, and what actually constitutes ‘new evidence’?

Are either of these considered ‘new’ by the legal definition...

***The deep bruise on RZ back was only discovered at the second autopsy (thought to be caused during restraint, possibly caused by a knee)

*** Timestamped and sequential photographs of the body on the grass show unexplained lividity which was not considered at the autopsy.

(The lividity in the body was evaluated upon time of arrival of the ME at scene rather than the time of actual discovery of the body ( as evidenced in testimony at trial by lead detective of the time the photographs were taken, shortly after discovery of the body)

Though it happened in Canada, the recent murders of Barry and Honey Sherman were initially considered by police to be "suspicious" and their working theory was a murder/suicide.

The Shermans were discovered fully clothed and wearing coats pulled down over their shoulders on Dec. 15, 2017. They both had belts around their necks attached to a railing near their indoor pool. And both were in a semi-seated position. Police said they did not find any signs of forced entry into the home.

The Sherman's family hired a private investigator who pointed to evidence showing they were murdered. Police have since changed their theory to the deaths being a targeted double homicide.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-deaths-toronto-police-update-1.4505259

 

[coastal]

Both times I’ve read Webb’s statement, the quote below has jumped out at me. Can someone explain what turned a mannequin into a “sex doll”? Or maybe not. This feels like another way to demean Rebecca IMO. And I suspect that’s how Adam viewed her...as a “custom-ordered sex doll.” When she didn’t cooperate, he brutalized her and killed her to keep her from telling anyone. His behavior at the press conference simply confirmed my impression that he is a bully who is used to having his way.

On top of that, plaintiffs’ grotesque trial stunts like bringing a custom-ordered sex doll with an exact likeness of Rebecca’s face into the courtroom, and hanging her naked body from a makeshift scaffold in front of the jury, was so vile and wildly prejudicial that it should never have been allowed to occur.

https://tribkswb.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/dan-webb-statement-on-shacknai-verdict-4-05-2018.docx

I heard Mr. Greer interviewed on KFMB/760 AM the other day, and he explained that the manneken he used in court was created by a company in San Marcos, who makes "companion dolls" to customer specifications. He said they manufactured the "Rebecca doll" using data from the AR, crime scene and other photos, etc., so as to re-create the scene as accurately as possible, up to and including the wounds on Rebecca's body and the ropes that bound her wrists and ankles, the t-shirt around her neck, and the gag and noose. They even modeled rigor mortis. Mr. G had very good things to say about the company and it's employees, but I didn't catch their name. The "doll" cost $6000.00. HTH

 

[Lezah]

Though it happened in Canada, the recent murders of Barry and Honey Sherman were initially considered by police to be "suspicious" and their working theory was a murder/suicide.



The Sherman's family hired a private investigator who pointed to evidence showing they were murdered. Police have since changed their theory to the deaths being a targeted double homicide.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/sherman-deaths-toronto-police-update-1.4505259

YES! Betty, this is the one I quoted!

This is what we need...!!Great detective work from guys like you ...and powerful legal examples and arguments validating the changing of the death certificate!


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[Lezah]

I heard Mr. Greer interviewed on KFMB/760 AM the other day, and he explained that the manneken he used in court was created by a company in San Marcos, who makes "companion dolls" to customer specifications. He said they manufactured the "Rebecca doll" using data from the AR, crime scene and other photos, etc., so as to re-create the scene as accurately as possible, up to and including the wounds on Rebecca's body and the ropes that bound her wrists and ankles, the t-shirt around her neck, and the gag and noose. They even modeled rigor mortis. Mr. G had very good things to say about the company and it's employees, but I didn't catch their name. The "doll" cost $6000.00. HTH

The argument by the defense that a plastic doll used in court as a demonstrative tool could be more prejudicial than the horrific, graphic images of the ACTUAL dead, naked, bound and gagged body of Rebecca Zahau SHOWN BY THE DEFENSE is totally ridiculous.

Just my opinion...


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[elfie]

I'm sorry, but it is so wrong that they would make a statement like that. To me it stinks of how the defense and Adam have viewed Rebecca all along. A sex slave (complete with rape by a knife handle). The dirty pool continues, however I think it will also continue to backfire. Nothing about the demonstration with the mannequin could remotely be viewed as sexual, imo. It demonstrated an incredibly sad moment. To try and spin it otherwise is pathetic in my book.

Webb and his team of pr sycophants are working overtime. Coronado is pretty much celebrating this finding of Adam causing Rebecca's death. The one or two I've come across that still say it was investigated properly are openly and admittedly law enforcement.

ETA: and WOW. I can't believe he is accusing the judge of making "a mountain of judicial errors"! IMO this press release is slanderous.

As well as libelous. He is no longer in the courtroom making these statements about the jury as well; not privileged.

 

[Betty P]

YES! Betty, this is the one I quoted!

This is what we need...!!Great detective work from guys like you ...and powerful legal examples and arguments validating the changing of the death certificate!


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I thought of Rebecca when I first began reading of these people's deaths. This part seemed really relevant WRT the second investigation

Their wrists showed evidence that they had been, at one point, bound together. No rope or other materials that could have been used to tie their wrists were discovered, the source told CBC Toronto.

BBM

Their bodies were otherwise limp and their arms unbound when they were discovered, the source said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...rivate-investigators-believe-source-1.4496686

It reminded me of the tape residue found on Rebecca's legs. LE never found the roll of tape (or didn't look for it) that would have been used to bind her legs together.