Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #4

[coastal]

I have wondered the same. Why would anyone throw away underwear unless it suddenly became unusable for some reason? Torn, perhaps?

My problem with the uncollected, untested underwear is that it was found at all. It is a guest house, not barn. It's very purpose is to provide shelter and comfort to guests. No host would allow trash left by a previous guest remain in the trashcan for a next guest. Such an oversight would be insulting and offensive, not to mention nasty, in any setting, but it is especially incongruous in this one. I don't believe Jonah here. Had his daughter discarded underwear there, she would have had the manners to take out the trash herself, before she left town. IMO

 

[coastal]

Well said.

Another thing on the so-called motive. I just don’t think Rebecca was anybody’s focus at that time. Not to hate, love or even care about. Every thought, prayer, anxiety, was toward Maxie.

Rebecca was a bit player in the background in everybody’s mind. She only mattered because she was there when that little boy was gravely injured. All eyes and hearts were on HIM...not RZ...not her needs and emotions.

The only attention she was getting was probative questions ...investigators called...NR wanting to talk to her.

For a woman who always cut and run before...she couldn’t cut and run from the investigation into Max’s death. Maybe she feared the kind of relentless scrutiny...did she push him, did she smother him,,.did she even try to give COR...did she stage the scene?

Maybe she would have been treated on some Internet board as Adam has been. *advertiser censored*, witchcraft, serial adulteress, thief. Every negative thing in her life laid out in public like has been done to Adam. Speculation and rumor and gossip added to prop up theories.

She was an unstable woman...by her own written words...feeling like she never had before. AS has no history as emotionally unstable as RZ. Of the two people in the house that night, all available evidence would be that he was the most emotionally stable of the two.

With all due respect, Rebecca is the focus of this lawsuit. Max is not. Why, almost seven years later, after she is dead and gone and buried, twice even, you cannot understand this is beyond me, but I will say it again: Rebecca's death is the subject of this lawsuit, not her life. <modsnip>

 

[Harmony 2]

RSBM I'm not sure this is allowed, so please delete if this is an inappropriate ask...

I know we often ask the opinion of verified lawyers on these threads. Are there verified law enforcement officers that can give an opinion on the investigation? Are we allowed to ask?

Particularly, is it common for an ME to arrive so late to a scene? What about the fact that this specific scene was first viewed as a homicide yet a lot of the scene/evidence wasn't processed?

I'm being very sincere about these questions because I'm trying to understand what is appropriate in this sort of circumstance. I'm curious to hear a perspective from someone that actually has experience, much like we ask the verified lawyers.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?191641-Professional-Posters-amp-Verified-Insiders

This is a list of the verified professionals. Websleuths has over 142,000 members. It is difficult to know which members are currently active and posting.

 

[Lilibet]

Rebecca is not on trial. The judge felt there was enough merit to this lawsuit (evidence) to allow it to go forward. There is no evidence that Rebecca harmed Max, and even his mother admits that. It is a non-issue in this lawsuit, so making insinuations that she killed herself to avoid answering questions about Max is just plain dirty IMO.

 

[Lezah]

Agree. I'm left wondering if the defense really ever intended to put Lucas on the stand in the first place. The 12+ hour time lapse between the 911 call and the ME's arrival on the scene, coupled with major discrepancies between Wecht's autopsy findings and Lucas's that Lucas certainly didn't address very well in the presser he attended, coupled with the possibly missing organ(s) from Rebecca's throat, I'm guessing the defense had to know things weren't likely to go well with Lucas on the stand.

I agree. I believe the defense added him originally, along with 50 plus other witnesses, as a strategic move, it was misdirection IMO - they have never intended to call him.

I have a good idea why they may have done this...and it’s to do with the appeals process...

Just my opinion....




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[stmarysmead]

With all due respect, Rebecca is the focus of this lawsuit. Max is not. Why, almost seven years later, after she is dead and gone and buried, twice even, you cannot understand this is beyond me, but I will say it again: Rebecca's death is the subject of this lawsuit, not her life. <modsnip>

Your last sentence is key...”Rebecca’s death is the subject of this lawsuit.” This debate is between suicide and murder. Discussing why a young woman would kill herself requires looking at her history, her emotional state, her secrets and her mistakes. Part of Rebecca’s very recent history was the grave injury of her boyfriend’s child while on her watch.

It is being discussed as a reason for her murder. It is absolutely pertinent as a possible reason for her suicide...if only that she would have to be questioned throughly about the statements she made and how the child was injured.

The reason the attorneys have brought up RZ troubling history of extramarital affairs...to the extent that she and her husband were forced to move several times...is because her emotional history is directly pertinent to whether she might have been at risk for suicide.

It would be a strangulation of our justice system to say that Maxie’s death could only be used as a motive for murder and not a motive for suicide...and Rebecca’s choices and history could not be part of the trial but every innuendo about Adam was fine.

Therefore they are part of our conversation here. Every aspect of Rebecca’s life and Adam’s are essential keys...to the truth of this tragedy.

 

[stmarysmead]

Rebecca is not on trial. The judge felt there was enough merit to this lawsuit (evidence) to allow it to go forward. There is no evidence that Rebecca harmed Max, and even his mother admits that. It is a non-issue in this lawsuit, so making insinuations that she killed herself to avoid answering questions about Max is just plain dirty IMO.

That pending investigation into Max&#8217;s death could indeed have been a stressor that led RZ to suicide. When the argument is made that there is no evidence against Adam because the investigation was inadequate...then, it can be argued that the same rationale could be made about Rebeccas involvement in Max&#8217;s death. One of the attending physicians did conclude that Max might have been smothered and, like Adam, if you want to focus on who was in the house...there&#8217;s only RZ and her sister.

It would not be justice to say that these tragedies must only be discussed or adjudicated with one set of rules for Adam and another for Rebecca. In fact, the only victims here may be the falsely accused on all sides...because these tragedies may be an accident and a suicide just as all the investigators concluded.

 

[stmarysmead]

My problem with the uncollected, untested underwear is that it was found at all. It is a guest house, not barn. It's very purpose is to provide shelter and comfort to guests. No host would allow trash left by a previous guest remain in the trashcan for a next guest. Such an oversight would be insulting and offensive, not to mention nasty, in any setting, but it is especially incongruous in this one. I don't believe Jonah here. Had his daughter discarded underwear there, she would have had the manners to take out the trash herself, before she left town. IMO

But remember, the teenage daughter had just left...and almost immediately, Max was gravely injured and all routines would have been thrown out of whack.

My husband and I were once at a very expensive hotel and I looked under the sink to put my makeup bag away. The bag caught on something and snagged a pair of women’s bikini underwear that must have been in the back corner. They looked like they had either blood or feces on them. Maybe someone didn’t want them in their suitcase.

It may also be that the size of the underwear ruled out them belonging to RZ.

We were immediately upgraded to a suite.

 

[Tortoise]

Rebecca is not on trial. The judge felt there was enough merit to this lawsuit (evidence) to allow it to go forward. There is no evidence that Rebecca harmed Max, and even his mother admits that. It is a non-issue in this lawsuit, so making insinuations that she killed herself to avoid answering questions about Max is just plain dirty IMO.

To quote Atty Greer "murder's not even a question". That's why I can't take seriously these last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going in the thread. I do believe it is because Adam is the only contender for Rebecca's murder, with the personal rageful message painted - and the only other male family member having an alibi.

It's as clear as the light of day that the one who tried to push suicide to the front of everyone's minds that morning is responsible and now facing the lawsuit. Good representation would focus on getting the investigation reopened too, but he knows that would be hopeless. He's dodged a life sentence and it's outrageous.

That is why I believe the focus is being kept on Rebecca and I agree it is dirty. I actually think it is despicable.

All IMO.

 

[stmarysmead]

To quote Atty Greer "murder's not even a question". That's why I can't take seriously these last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going in the thread. I do believe it is because Adam is the only contender for Rebecca's murder, with the personal rageful message painted - and the only other male family member having an alibi.

It's as clear as the light of day that the one who tried to push suicide to the front of everyone's minds that morning is responsible and now facing the lawsuit. Good representation would focus on getting the investigation reopened too, but he knows that would be hopeless. He's dodged a life sentence and it's outrageous.

That is why I believe the focus is being kept on Rebecca and I agree it is dirty. I actually think it is despicable.

All IMO.

IMO, for too long this discussion was just a group of like minded people reinforcing each other&#8217;s opinions. If a discussion of RZ&#8217;s lifestyle choices, emmotionsl issues, diary entries, etc were not pertinent to this court case, the judge would not allow them to be addressed in court.

These issues are not &#8220;dirty&#8221;, they are a part of the actual court case, issues that are being argued in court as a matter of justice.

This trial will never settle the issue to the general public, because there were dueling experts and everyone essentially believes whatever they choose. Everybody&#8217;s &#8220;light of day&#8221;can be supported by their favorite experts.

Even the &#8220;rage full message&#8221; is open to numerous interpretations. To me, it was an emotionally damaged woman directing her despair at her neglectful boyfriend. Her suicide may have even been staged by her to look suspicious to hurt him as he and his whole family had hurt her.

 

[Betty P]

IMO, for too long this discussion was just a group of like minded people reinforcing each other&#8217;s opinions. If a discussion of RZ&#8217;s lifestyle choices, emmotionsl issues, diary entries, etc were not pertinent to this court case, the judge would not allow them to be addressed in court.

These issues are not &#8220;dirty&#8221;, they are a part of the actual court case, issues that are being argued in court as a matter of justice.

This trial will never settle the issue to the general public, because there were dueling experts and everyone essentially believes whatever they choose.

I've just never understood why some folks want to obsess over nasty rumors about a poor dead woman who is no longer around to defend herself.

All the rumors that have been floated here over the years have been vague and unsubstantiated. That's why Mods didn't allow them. On the other hand, there have been many kind words expressed about Rebecca by family and friends over the years.

JMO, it's more appropriate to discuss the facts of the case than dwell on cruel internet gossip and character assassination. Websleuths just isn't the kind of place where people do that kind of thing.

 

[Tortoise]

IMO, for too long this discussion was just a group of like minded people reinforcing each other&#8217;s opinions. If a discussion of RZ&#8217;s lifestyle choices, emmotionsl issues, diary entries, etc were not pertinent to this court case, the judge would not allow them to be addressed in court.

These issues are not &#8220;dirty&#8221;, they are a part of the actual court case, issues that are being argued in court as a matter of justice.

This trial will never settle the issue to the general public, because there were dueling experts and everyone essentially believes whatever they choose.

IMO, I've come to this case new, just prior to the beginning of the WDS and seen the evidence both sides have presented. IMO, it's not about like-minded people reinforcing opinions, it is murder up and down back to front whichever way you look at it, based on the evidence. Not one piece of evidence, every piece.

Persecuting a murdered woman is dirty and will never be acceptable to me.

 

[stmarysmead]

I've just never understood why some folks want to obsess over nasty rumors about a poor dead woman who is no longer around to defend herself.

All the rumors that have been floated here over the years have been vague and unsubstantiated. That's why Mods didn't allow them. On the other hand, there have been many kind words expressed about Rebecca by family and friends over the years.

JMO, it's more appropriate to discuss the facts of the case than dwell on cruel internet gossip and character assassination. Websleuths just isn't the kind of place where people do that kind of thing.

We are discussing them because they were testimony in court. They are a legitimate part of this court case. The judge allowed her theft and her adulterous affairs, and her weird issues when separating from another millionaire extra martial boyfriend.

The jury needs as much information about both of these people...as they decide this case. The judge did not and can not exclude this negative history of RZ because it is pertinent to the question of suicide, just as AS character is pertinent to the question of murder.

Did the mods here not allow discussion of these issues here that have now been testified to in trial? Maybe that was because no one has sworn to them or offered them in legal depositions or testimony. Now these issues of RZ are a matter of legal record.

They ARE part of the &#8220;facts of the case.&#8221;

 

[stmarysmead]

IMO, I've come to this case new, just prior to the beginning of the WDS and seen the evidence both sides have presented. IMO, it's not about like-minded people reinforcing opinions, it is murder up and down back to front whichever way you look at it, based on the evidence. Not one piece of evidence, every piece.

Persecuting a murdered woman is dirty and will never be acceptable to me.

Discussion of sworn testimony given in a court of law is not &#8220;dirty.&#8221; The question of &#8220;murder&#8221; is unresolved and frankly, will not totally be resolved by even this jury.

I respect your opinion. But RZ&#8217;s history in all respects, tarnished and admirable...is a pertinent and valid issue in the legal case. The effort to silence any of the more tawdry aspects of her past, frankly, deter from the logic of other arguments...because they imply a foundation of bias in her favor...not a logical look at all parts of the case.

I&#8217;m sure Mr Greer is aware of this pothole...to SO completely deify or demonize really undercuts credibility.

 

[Betty P]

To quote Atty Greer "murder's not even a question". That's why I can't take seriously these last minute attempts to keep the suicide narrative going in the thread. I do believe it is because Adam is the only contender for Rebecca's murder, with the personal rageful message painted - and the only other male family member having an alibi.

It's as clear as the light of day that the one who tried to push suicide to the front of everyone's minds that morning is responsible and now facing the lawsuit. Good representation would focus on getting the investigation reopened too, but he knows that would be hopeless. He's dodged a life sentence and it's outrageous.

That is why I believe the focus is being kept on Rebecca and I agree it is dirty. I actually think it is despicable.

All IMO.

I agree with you, Tortoise. I think that train has left the station, so to speak. All of the additional evidence that has finally been revealed in recent months has finally put an end to questions about whether or not Rebecca committed suicide. It's obvious that she didn't.

For whatever reason, SDSO failed to understand this. That's a public discussion they'll have to engage in with the community they serve.

But most people who read this story from the beginning suspected it wasn't suicide, that it was a very unusual and suspicious murder. If the bizarre third person message on the door and the elaborate bindings on the wrists and feet didn't convince you, the nude hanging certainly did. Most of the public and the news media was shocked when SDSO announced it was a suicide. This trial has finally given the public some relief. These kinds of murders affect entire communities. Having this public review and discussion has been cathartic, IMO.

 

[Betty P]

Discussion of sworn testimony given in a court of law is not &#8220;dirty.&#8221; The question of &#8220;murder&#8221; is unresolved and frankly, will not totally be resolved by even this jury.

I respect your opinion. But RZ&#8217;s history in all respects, tarnished and admirable...is a pertinent and valid issue in the legal case. The effort to silence any of the more tawdry aspects of her past, frankly, deter from the logic of other arguments...because they imply a foundation of bias in her favor...not a logical look at all parts of the case.

I&#8217;m sure Mr Greer is aware of this pothole...to SO completely deify or demonize really undercuts credibility.

There is nothing "tarnished" in RZ's history. Nothing at all. By all accounts, she was a kind and loving person. Her only mistake was getting involved with a man whose family experienced severe dysfunction and unhappiness. It was an impossible situation for any woman.

It's a story as old as the ages - an innocent woman victimized by the family of a wealthy man who then attempts to paint the woman as disreputable and deserving of being murdered. It's the only way they can possibly clear themselves of guilt. We've seen similar scenarios throughout history.

It's the old "Cell Block Tango", the same tale told by every murderer.

https://youtu.be/qrrz54UtkCc?t=1m10s

She had it coming
She had it coming
She only had herself to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I bet you, you would have done the same

 

[stmarysmead]

A torture murder as described with alleged &#8220;hogtying&#8221;, knife rape...indicates a stomach for cruelty and observing others pain that has not been found in AS past. No episodes of rage or anger issues have come up in testimony. So this man, once removed from this tragedy, commits his first crime in such a fiendish manner with absolutely no prior indication?

Then there is no evidence of him at the scene? And the years long scenario of how this happened...implicating DR and NR...believed like gospel here and elsewhere, has to be retracted and reduced just to him?

Couldn&#8217;t the belief in THIS scenario be just as flawed.

All reasons for doubt.

Rebecca&#8217;s history prior to JS is unequivocally troubled. She could have left her husband. As is often stated here, she had a good job and supportive family. But instead she went from man to man...running back to the Ex when she needed rescuing. His testimony that these rescues often required leaving the city they were living in. That is not the history of an emotionally healthy woman who was emotionally capable or adept at handling her problems.

What was RZ looking for in these affairs? Her Ex Husbamd testified according to Tricia&#8217;s podcast that money was important to her because of her impoverished childhood. The SD Podcast &#8220;Under The Gavel&#8221; alludes to a message in her diary &#8220;No amount of money is worth this.&#8221;...referring to her emotional pain.

This testimony was all before the jury and worthy to note to the many WS readers who come here to follow cases.

In none of these prior instances, did RZ go home to family or just become independent. She instead ran back to a man she accused of being abusive. But serial adultery in a marriage is abusive too.

I think RZ was a complicated person as humans can be. A loving daughter, kind to many, but deeply troubled and emotionally fragile. These men with money were not bringing her happiness.

 

[stmarysmead]

There is nothing "tarnished" in RZ's history. Nothing at all. By all accounts, she was a kind and loving person. Her only mistake was getting involved with a man whose family experienced severe dysfunction and unhappiness. It was an impossible situation for any woman.

It's a story as old as the ages - an innocent woman victimized by the family of a wealthy man who then attempts to paint the woman as disreputable and deserving of being murdered. It's the only way they can possibly clear themselves of guilt. We've seen similar scenarios throughout history.

It's the old "Cell Block Tango", the same tale told by every murderer.

https://youtu.be/qrrz54UtkCc?t=1m10s

She had it coming
She had it coming
She only had herself to blame
If you'd have been there
If you'd have seen it
I bet you, you would have done the same

The &#8220;shoplift8mg story&#8221; is odd too. My daughter worked briefly at the Macy&#8217;s jewelry counter. Macy&#8217;s is not Tiffany&#8217;s. They do not have really high end jewelry with designer names. They do have some 10k, 14k mass produced &#8220;fine&#8221;jewelry behind locked counters.

The sales people are trained to stay with that jewelry like hawks when dealing with a customer...and never leave the customer. I&#8217;m not seeing how RZ walked innocently away from that counter.

Their other jewelry is fashion jewelry...cheap...it would take a lot to be over $1000. I mean...a LOT. That&#8217;s heavy and hard to miss.

I think if she had had a credible explanation, Macy&#8217;s would have just allowed her to apologize and leave.

Again, if her other history were not so emotionally chaotic, this episode might not look like it fit a pattern of longing for material things and destructive behavior.

We wrote our own histories and then must take responsibility for them.

 

[Betty P]

The &#8220;shoplift8mg story&#8221; is odd too. My daughter worked briefly at the Macy&#8217;s jewelry counter. Macy&#8217;s is not Tiffany&#8217;s. They do not have high end jewelry with designer names, it they do have some 10k maybe 14k mass produced jewelry behind locked counters.

The sales people are trained to stay with that jewelry like hawks when dealing with a customer...and never leave the customer. I&#8217;m not seeing how RZ walked innocently away from that counter.

There other jewelry is fashion jewelry...cheap...it would take a lot to be over $1000. I mean...a LOT. That&#8217;s heavy and hard to miss.

I think if she had had a credible explanation, Macy&#8217;s would have just allowed her to apologize and leave.

Again, if her other history were not so emotionally chaotic, this episode might not look like it fit a pattern of longing for material things and destructive behavior.

So you're in agreement with the Cell Block Tango approach? Demonize the victim because "she had it coming"?

That kind of attack on brutally murdered people usually backfires. It's not popular with juries, especially when the family of the perp uses wealth and power to trash their reputation. Most defense attorneys are usually smart enough to avoid it.

 

[stmarysmead]

So you're in agreement with the Cell Block Tango approach? Demonize the victim because "she had it coming"?

That kind of attack on brutally murdered people usually backfires. It's not popular with juries, especially when the family of the perp uses wealth and power to trash their reputation. Most defense attorneys are usually smart enough to avoid it.

Discussing court testimony does not mean I have any negative motives. RZ created her own history. That history is part of the court case and part of the discussion as to suicide or murder.

Did RZ &#8220;demonize&#8221; herself with her behaviors? I wasnt part of her serial adulteries. And therefore if it demonizes her, it&#8217;s not my fault.

It&#8217;s just testimony in the case THAT THE JURY HEARD that is seldom discussed here.