Related Issues and Food for Thought

[Alethea Dice]

<rsbm>

But he is a performer and his performance name is Say-10

The graphical nature of his name underscores the fact that it is his performance name (remember when Prince turned his name into a symbol? or Kesha dropped her $? or know the A$AP mob? Many performers include graphic elements in their names.)

Is there anything out there with MS's "performances", other than starring in the Ghozted video? I always thought his "involvement with the local indie rap scene" was just his involvement with MWJ and JD and company, not that he actually performs.

JMO

 

[swedie]

I wouldn't call MS or DM stocky or even broad. If one was broad and one was stocky I wonder who was there? How would anyone know who wore a hoody? I'm having a hard time placing broad or stocky, as for the hoody I wouldn't hazard a guess.

This is why I don't agree with witnesses being allowed in the courtroom during the case so far without having picked people out from a line up. It's easy to say 'yes that's him' when you have seen him several times in court. I think if a line up was not done at the beginning prior to court dates that any identification of accused should be ruled out. But that's just my opinion and for the lawyers to bring to bear on the court.

Did you miss the fact that that description came from Molly's ebook and not from the two witnesses, SB and the business owner? HTH and MOO.

The business owner described the two men as suspicious and added to the description already provided by police.

The first suspect has the word &#8220;Ambition&#8221; tattooed on his wrist with a box around it, police said, adding that it&#8217;s a rather uncommon tattoo.

The two are white males in their 20s. The first is described as roughly 6&#8217;1&#8221; and between 170 and 180 pounds. He had short brown hair and was unshaven. He was wearing jeans and a long sleeve orange shirt with running shoes, police said.

The second man was shorter, at approximately 5&#8217;9&#8221; or 5&#8217;10&#8221;, police said. He had a small to medium build with dark hair and was wearing a red hooded sweatshirt.

http://globalnews.ca/news/551499/hamilton-police-to-provide-update-on-tim-bosma-case/

This description of the two males matched the description provided by Mrs. Bosma. As well the vehicle owner from Toronto was able to add a description of the first male.

1) male white, 6&#8217;1&#8221; to 6&#8217;2&#8221;, 170 to 180 lbs, mid 20&#8217;s, light to medium short brown hair, unshaven, wearing blue jeans, long sleeve orange shirt and running shoes. The male had several tattoos on his arms. On one of his wrists where a person wears a watch was the word, &#8220;Ambition.&#8221; There was a box tattooed, framing the outside of the word. Police have researched this tattoo which is not uncommon but the location of it is unique. This male has not been identified as yet.
2) male white, 5&#8217;9&#8221; to 5&#8217;10&#8221; , small to medium build, early to mid 20&#8217;s, dark hair, wearing a red hooded sweatshirt with hood up over his head.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/10/tim-bosma-missing-persons_n_3254021.html

 

[Tamarind]

Did you miss the fact that that description came from Molly's ebook and not from the two witnesses, SB and the business owner? HTH and MOO.

The business owner described the two men as suspicious and added to the description already provided by police.

The first suspect has the word &#8220;Ambition&#8221; tattooed on his wrist with a box around it, police said, adding that it&#8217;s a rather uncommon tattoo.

The two are white males in their 20s. The first is described as roughly 6&#8217;1&#8221; and between 170 and 180 pounds. He had short brown hair and was unshaven. He was wearing jeans and a long sleeve orange shirt with running shoes, police said.

The second man was shorter, at approximately 5&#8217;9&#8221; or 5&#8217;10&#8221;, police said. He had a small to medium build with dark hair and was wearing a red hooded sweatshirt.

http://globalnews.ca/news/551499/hamilton-police-to-provide-update-on-tim-bosma-case/

This description of the two males matched the description provided by Mrs. Bosma. As well the vehicle owner from Toronto was able to add a description of the first male.

1) male white, 6&#8217;1&#8221; to 6&#8217;2&#8221;, 170 to 180 lbs, mid 20&#8217;s, light to medium short brown hair, unshaven, wearing blue jeans, long sleeve orange shirt and running shoes. The male had several tattoos on his arms. On one of his wrists where a person wears a watch was the word, &#8220;Ambition.&#8221; There was a box tattooed, framing the outside of the word. Police have researched this tattoo which is not uncommon but the location of it is unique. This male has not been identified as yet.
2) male white, 5&#8217;9&#8221; to 5&#8217;10&#8221; , small to medium build, early to mid 20&#8217;s, dark hair, wearing a red hooded sweatshirt with hood up over his head.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/10/tim-bosma-missing-persons_n_3254021.html

No I dont think I have missed anything.

Did SB pick accused out from a line up?

I wonder how the business owner would define the word 'suspicious'?

Do you have any proof that DM has an ambition tattoo that has a box around it? I notice they have no idea which wrist.

I believe I read that one report alleged a long sleeved orange shirt and another said short sleeved. How do you see an armful of tattoos through long sleeves?

So the one in the red hoody wore the hood up over his head. How could the witnesses tell whether the hair was dark, red or shaved? Doesn't MS sport a shaved head?

Small to medium build v stocky. How can someone be small to medium build AND stocky?

6' 1" is tall and at 170lbs that would be quite slender. So how can a tall slender guy look broad, or stocky , if they have been confused as to which guy is which according to his sweater?

So we have no idea whether the ambition tattoo is common or uncommon according to reports, or whether it has a box around it.

A good lawyer will have a field day cross questioning, just on these things alone IMO. All MOO

 

[hopingforjustice]

I wouldn't call MS or DM stocky or even broad. If one was broad and one was stocky I wonder who was there? How would anyone know who wore a hoody? I'm having a hard time placing broad or stocky, as for the hoody I wouldn't hazard a guess.

This is why I don't agree with witnesses being allowed in the courtroom during the case so far without having picked people out from a line up. It's easy to say 'yes that's him' when you have seen him several times in court. I think if a line up was not done at the beginning prior to court dates that any identification of accused should be ruled out. But that's just my opinion and for the lawyers to bring to bear on the court.

JMO but I am guessing that the image that SB as the main witness has in her mind of the last time she saw her husband is burned in her head forever. She will forever go to sleep at night seeing their faces and "smile". I am fairly confident in my belief that if a line up had been done right away, the outcome would be the same. JMO MOO

 

[Tamarind]

JMO but I am guessing that the image that SB as the main witness has in her mind of the last time she saw her husband is burned in her head forever. She will forever go to sleep at night seeing their faces and "smile". I am fairly confident in my belief that if a line up had been done right away, the outcome would be the same. JMO MOO

I have to agree to disagree on that. She would not have known or had any idea what would occur after they left the driveway, so there was no real reason for her to keep that in her head, at the time. It would have only been an issue much later that evening or even the next day, as she may have not connected the disappearance to anyone, and may have thought he had had a car accident.

Speaking for myself I can't imagine that I would have retained the full detailed description of someone coming to go on a test drive with another family member, any more than anyone who has attended my home to collect something I have sold on kijiji.

I went to collect something I bought off kijiji just yesterday and I couldn't tell you what the woman was wearing or her husband that answered the door. If nothing is majorly suspicious I don't believe most minds click in to retain such detailed information JMO. That's why I am interested in what the business owner finds suspicious. Was it just that they arrived on foot? People do get dropped off, so was there something else that was suspicious?

I also find it odd that this orange shirt was allegedly worn on two consecutive days, and that it either has long sleeves or short sleeves depending on what you read, just recently though it tends to be promoted as being long sleeved. Most people change clothes daily, especially when it's warm outside which it was on that date apparently and long sleeves would cover an armful of tattoos. If the long sleeves were rolled up, why was that not in the original description?

Just my opinion, but the jury will no doubt have their own opinions, twelve of them, so I am interested in what their interpretation will be. MOO

 

[Kamille]

Let's explore wether or not Say10 could be called his gang name.

It is not the name his mother gave him, so it is not his birth name.
He is not an author so it is not his nom de plume.
He is not a clown, so it is not his clown name.

It could be a nickname, although nicknames are usually something your friends call you, and if that were the case, I would have to wonder what kind of person he is that his friends would call him satan. I have a feeling that MS made this name up for himself, because of the spelling. If his friends were the ones who started calling him Say10, how did they pronounce it so that he knew it was meant to be spelled with numerals?

Who are the most prevalent creators of graffiti? There are commonly two groups, street artists like Banksy or gang members. How can we tell them apart? One group makes graffiti with the intention of making urban areas more interesting and beautiful, while the other group is only concerned with marking their territory. If I had to guess, I would say that MS's Say10 paint job wasn't about making the underpass a more beautiful space, it was about him tagging his gang name to mark his territory. All of this is my personal opinion only.

So there is no MSM link that states that MS was a gang member. I beg to differ that anyone who spray paints their name on public property is a gang member marking their territory but I suppose we can just agree to disagree on this.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

I have to agree to disagree on that. She would not have known or had any idea what would occur after they left the driveway, so there was no real reason for her to keep that in her head, at the time. It would have only been an issue much later that evening or even the next day, as she may have not connected the disappearance to anyone, and may have thought he had had a car accident.

SB could barely bring herself to wait an hour to call LE - she knew something was wrong right away

Speaking for myself I can't imagine that I would have retained the full detailed description of someone coming to go on a test drive with another family member, any more than anyone who has attended my home to collect something I have sold on kijiji.

I went to collect something I bought off kijiji just yesterday and I couldn't tell you what the woman was wearing or her husband that answered the door. If nothing is majorly suspicious I don't believe most minds click in to retain such detailed information JMO. That's why I am interested in what the business owner finds suspicious. Was it just that they arrived on foot? People do get dropped off, so was there something else that was suspicious?

I also find it odd that this orange shirt was allegedly worn on two consecutive days, and that it either has long sleeves or short sleeves depending on what you read, just recently though it tends to be promoted as being long sleeved. Most people change clothes daily, especially when it's warm outside which it was on that date apparently and long sleeves would cover an armful of tattoos. If the long sleeves were rolled up, why was that not in the original description?

Just my opinion, but the jury will no doubt have their own opinions, twelve of them, so I am interested in what their interpretation will be. MOO

 

[Kamille]

No I dont think I have missed anything.

Did SB pick accused out from a line up?

I wonder how the business owner would define the word 'suspicious'?

Do you have any proof that DM has an ambition tattoo that has a box around it? I notice they have no idea which wrist.

I believe I read that one report alleged a long sleeved orange shirt and another said short sleeved. How do you see an armful of tattoos through long sleeves?

So the one in the red hoody wore the hood up over his head. How could the witnesses tell whether the hair was dark, red or shaved? Doesn't MS sport a shaved head?

Small to medium build v stocky. How can someone be small to medium build AND stocky?

6' 1" is tall and at 170lbs that would be quite slender. So how can a tall slender guy look broad, or stocky , if they have been confused as to which guy is which according to his sweater?

So we have no idea whether the ambition tattoo is common or uncommon according to reports, or whether it has a box around it.

A good lawyer will have a field day cross questioning, just on these things alone IMO. All MOO

The discrepancies come from the media not LE so there will be nothing for a defence lawyer to question. He can only question the evidence, not something that was printed online by a media outlet.

Where is the report alleging that one of the suspects wore an orange shirt on both days? Or a short sleeved orange shirt at all? I do not believe the first test drive clothing information was ever released. The only info released from that test drive was the tattoo IIRC.

TIA

 

[SnooperDuper]

The discrepancies come from the media not LE so there will be nothing for a defence lawyer to question. He can only question the evidence, not something that was printed online by a media outlet.

Where is the report alleging that one of the suspects wore an orange shirt on both days? Or a short sleeved orange shirt at all? I do not believe the first test drive clothing information was ever released. The only info released from that test drive was the tattoo IIRC.

TIA

The suspect is described as white, in his mid-20s, between six feet one and six feet two inches tall, and weighing between 170 and 180 pounds. He was unshaven, had light to medium short brown hair and wore blue jeans, a long-sleeve orange shirt and running shoes.

Kavanagh said the Toronto man described the orange shirt as being short-sleeved and noticed several tattoos on the suspect&#8217;s arms. The most distinctive was one on one of his wrists where a person wears a watch. It read &#8220;Ambition&#8221; and was framed by a box in the same direction as a watch.

&#8220;This tattoo itself is not uncommon. Many people have the word ambition tattooed on their body,&#8221; he said &#8220;However, the location and the frame around it is unique.&#8221;

Kavanagh said the description of the second suspect is unchanged: white, in his early to mid-20s and between five feet nine and five feet 10 inches tall. He had a small to medium build and wore a dark red hoodie with the hood up over his head.

http://www.hamiltonnews.com/news-story/5427515-bosma-suspect-s-ambition-tattoo-unique-police/

Perhaps MS wore the same hoodie because it is his regular outerwear or he stayed over without a change of clothes...as for DM, he sounds like the kinda guy that dresses himself from the nearest pile on the floor that passes a sniff test:

When the Toronto Star visited the home, which backs onto a golf course, in May following a police investigation, it was a mess, with clothing, documents and cans of soup strewn throughout. The only thing moving was a black cat.

http://www.mississauga.com/news-sto...llard-s-mother-sells-1-2-million-family-home/

 

[Kamille]

Again that is a media discrepancy. There is no direct quote from Kavanaugh, just a reporter interpretation. The media got confused by the press release from Hamilton LE, which I admit was very poorly worded.

https://www.facebook.com/HamiltonPolice/posts/623618434333119:0

So the added information that the Toronto man gave was that the first suspect sported tattoos. I think it was an assumption or miscommunication on the part of the media that the clothing description was the same for both suspects, for both days and therefore the orange shirt must have been short sleeved. Perhaps the reporter asked the question "was the first suspect wearing a short sleeved shirt for the Toronto witness to see these tattoos?" If the answer was yes, he may have made an assumption. Is this the only person to have reported that? The clothing description given by Hamilton LE was the last known description of both men when they left TB's driveway IMO.

MOO

 

[Arnie M]

I wouldn't call MS or DM stocky or even broad. If one was broad and one was stocky I wonder who was there? How would anyone know who wore a hoody? I'm having a hard time placing broad or stocky, as for the hoody I wouldn't hazard a guess.

This is why I don't agree with witnesses being allowed in the courtroom during the case so far without having picked people out from a line up. It's easy to say 'yes that's him' when you have seen him several times in court. I think if a line up was not done at the beginning prior to court dates that any identification of accused should be ruled out. But that's just my opinion and for the lawyers to bring to bear on the court.

You are creating a monster that does not exist

The first descriptions of the test-drivers by SB was made public BEFORE anyone was arrested , and once arrested the descriptions fit very well

And you can be sure the trial will not be won or lost in regards to whether orange sleeves were long or short or whether there was a box around the ambition tattoo or not.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Well anyway it's a good thing DM thinks he looks smashing in orange, because these days he's wearing "orange short-sleeved jump suits". http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...rderers-make-brief-court-appearance-1.2680582 And reading Orange is the new Black http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure

http://www.amazon.ca/Orange-Is-New-Black-Womens/dp/0385523394

 

[SnooperDuper]

You are creating a monster that does not exist

The first descriptions of the test-drivers by SB was made public BEFORE anyone was arrested , and once arrested the descriptions fit very well

And you can be sure the trial will not be won or lost in regards to whether orange sleeves were long or short or whether there was a box around the ambition tattoo or not.

I agree i think it comes back to this:

Tony Leitch, the Hamilton Crown attorney prosecuting the Bosma case, says the project involves "one of the largest computer seizures in Ontario criminal law history."

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

 

[swedie]

JMO but I am guessing that the image that SB as the main witness has in her mind of the last time she saw her husband is burned in her head forever. She will forever go to sleep at night seeing their faces and "smile". I am fairly confident in my belief that if a line up had been done right away, the outcome would be the same. JMO MOO

I agree Hoping. Some people are very observant while others are not and obviously SB was very observant that night. Some people never forget a face (link). Obviously she was with them long enough to gather their description. Sounds like her and Tim were very connected as a couple and I have no doubt she was included in some, if not all the conversation prior to Tim leaving on the test drive with the perps. The business owner felt something was suspicious about these two, maybe SB had some sort of uneasy feeling also which could have made her more in tuned to their description.

I hope SB is able to go to sleep at night with more pleasant thoughts on her mind then that of the two sitting in jail, charged with her sweethearts brutal murder. Thoughts of her's and Tim's little girl, her plans for the future. I'm sure she has so many wonderful memories of Tim and hopefully they occupy her mind instead of the faces of evil. All JMO.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/are-you-a-super-recognizer-take-a-test/

That seller, who was in the Etobicoke area, had also posted the truck for sale online. He told police he found the men suspicious, because they had arrived to see the truck in an industrial area with no vehicle.

"He thought it was odd, because of the size of the vehicle," Kavanagh said. "It's more of a business vehicle than a personal vehicle.

"Fortunately for this person, he's a very large individual. I think he would have overpowered the both of them. I think that was his advantage."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...e-arrest-in-tim-bosma-investigation-1.1323654

May 5, 2013: Police say two men – believed to be the suspects in the Bosma disappearance test drive a truck in Toronto. The man whose truck was driven told police he found them suspicious.

http://globalnews.ca/news/560553/tim-bosma-a-timeline-of-the-police-investigation/

Hamilton police Staff Sgt. Matt Kavanagh told media that Millard had contacted a man from the Etobicoke area to take a test drive in a Dodge Ram 3500 diesel truck he was selling prior to Bosma going missing. That man went on a test drive with two men and told police they were acting suspiciously.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamil...ler-tried-to-arrange-3rd-test-drive-1.1302075

 

[swedie]

I agree i think it comes back to this:



http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-s...ed-bosma-killer-s-girlfriend-was-incinerated/

And this: Ontario Attorney General, Madeleine Meilleur: &#8220;The provision is there if there is a solid case and justice will be better served by going directly to trial.&#8221;

Attorney General Madeleine Meilleur approved the decision to skip a preliminary hearing, suggesting the evidence will support the decision.

AG Meilleur: &#8220;When this procedure is supported, it&#8217;s because there is good evidence that the person that is accused will be convicted.&#8221;

http://www.chch.com/millard-smitch-will-go-straight-trial/

 

[Alethea Dice]

I agree that sloppy reporting is the only thing suggesting that either one wore the same clothing on both days. It was never released what the other test drive man said they were wearing.

The first description given by SB:

1) male white, 6&#8217;1&#8221; to 6&#8217;2&#8221;, 170 to 180 lbs, mid 20&#8217;s, light to medium short brown hair, unshaven, wearing blue jeans, long sleeve orange shirt and running shoes
2) male white, 5&#8217;9&#8221; to 5&#8217;10&#8221; , small to medium build, early to mid 20&#8217;s, dark hair red hooded with hood up over his head.
3) These males were last seen in Mr. Bosma&#8217;s vehicle described as a 2007 dodge Ram pick up black in colour, Ontario licence plate 726 7ZW.

https://www.facebook.com/HamiltonPolice?fref=nf

The next description released after talking to the second test drive man:

1) male white, 6&#8217;1&#8221; to 6&#8217;2&#8221;, 170 to 180 lbs, mid 20&#8217;s, light to medium short brown hair, unshaven, wearing blue jeans, long sleeve orange shirt and running shoes. The male had several tattoos on his arms. On one of his wrists where a person wears a watch was the word, &#8220;Ambition.&#8221; Their was a box tattooed, framing the outside of the word. Police have researched this tattoo which is not uncommon but the location of it is unique. This male has not been identified as yet.
2) male white, 5&#8217;9&#8221; to 5&#8217;10&#8221; , small to medium build, early to mid 20&#8217;s, dark hair, wearing a red hooded sweatshirt with hood up over his head.
3) These males were last seen in Mr. Bosma&#8217;s vehicle described as a 2007 Dodge Ram pick up black in colour, Ontario licence plate 726 7ZW.

https://www.facebook.com/HamiltonPolice/posts/623618434333119:0

All that's been added is the tattoo information. Nothing else was changed or added to in regards to clothing, size, hair, etc.

However, having seen some of his FB pictures, the best and truest description I've seen yet of MS is this one:

Mr. Smich is described as tall and lanky, fond of baggy clothing, attempting to copy the &#8216;gangsta&#8217; look. He liked to recite violent rap lyrics and mimic violent poses of street gang members.

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/tag/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/22/second-man-facing-first-degree-murder-charge-in-death-of-tim-bosma-as-1500-mourners-gather-to-remember-hamilton-father&pubdate=2015-02-25&t=mark-smich

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Well this crime went down in Hamilton and KW and that is all HA territory. You can see a fellow AW (formerly of SC) links all this territory...there were other biker gangs here but the HA swallowed them all up:

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4201465-hells-angels-get-their-sentimental-stuff-back/

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2186725-hells-angel-drug-dealer-gets-4-years/

http://www.cambridgetimes.ca/news-story/3370767-man-arrested-in-gang-sweep/

However I don't think any HA are linked to this crime...

Are you still allowed to be HA if you can no longer own or ride a motorcycle or own more than one cell phone?

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/05/27/no-happy-trails-for-paroled-hells-angel-walter-stadnick.html

 

[Arnie M]

.

The long sleeved orange shirt description given by SB was also used in the report about the first test drive .... I think police stuck with the SB version because it was all about the search for Tim

But some people here got all twisted up wondering how the man in the first test drive could have seen several upper arm tattoos if it was a long sleeved shirt ..... just someone trying to create a monster that did not exist.

Anyway , I still say the description of the wrist-ambition tattoo by the first test drive man was crucial to solving the case , as well as the groundskeeper who found Tim's phone that lead police to the first test drive man.

I often wonder if DM began wearing long sleeved shirts after the huge publicity of the wrist-ambition-tattoo

.

 

[SnooperDuper]

DM was arrested just when the tattoo description came out - jail jumpsuits are short sleeve...

 

[Juballee]

They didn't have to find Tim's phone to trace what numbers had called him, they were not waiting to check his caller id, from what I recall.

Thanks for the new photo Arnie, I hadn't seen that one before, but it again just makes me think that those wrist tattoos don't seem to have a box around them. Maybe that the thing DM thinks is so obvious that we are missing?

Just my opinion only.