Related Issues and Food for Thought

[swedie]

If it were that obvious, many such as myself would not be questioning the whole case due to the inaccuracies and less than obvious facts so far MOO

To say that DM was trying to frame MS is quite ludicrous IMO. Why would DM put a body and a truck on properties that would lead police to him and not MS. By that logic it is obviously DM that has been set up IMO.

Tamarind, do you care to point out what you claim to be that obvious as I am really confused about your meaning of obvious. Where are the inaccuracies and what is less than obvious? IMHO this case is clear cut as to what happened on May 6, 2013.

DM and MS showed up at Tim and Sharlene's home to allegedly take Tim's Dodge Ram on a test drive (LE have this evidence to prove this, witnesses and surveillance). We know DM was behind the wheel when they left TB's property (also evidence), LE suggesting it was MS following behind in DM's Yukon (again they must have the evidence to make this claim). LE claim Tim was murdered that night (they have that evidence also to make that claim). Tim was burnt beyond recognition (further evidence, not just speculation), an incinerator ordered and purchased by MA was discovered on DM's farmland property along with Tim's remains (LE have that evidence also). That's the simplified version of it and it doesn't get any more clear than that so I HTH. Every thing points to DM being involved and guilty. There are no framers, there was no hijacking of Tim's truck by strangers while DM was behind the wheel of TB's truck, there was no accident or Tim having a heart attack or any other plausible reason. It's OK if some fail to see the obvious and are possibly in denial about DM. Reality sucks, it really does, I get it. Hopefully the trial will sort out that confusion for many. IMO you must be referring to the few here because consensus outside of WS and on WS say otherwise. ALL JMHO.

Also, LE have evidence DM murdered his father and LB. They don't charge people without some evidence. Again, wait until trial to hear how he carried out those murders and got away with them. MOO.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Yes I read it Kamille. Thank you. Odlum confirmed a charge of trafficking.
So he was charged, not yet convicted??. He says it was a few years ago. Even if convicted that tells me that at some point that gun was in his hands and that he was part of something by his own admission. He says police are alleging he sold the gun to DM. Again this tells me that Odlums prints are on the gun (along with a few others no doubt, IMO), and that the gun has possibly been found at a place connected to DM, either hidden, stored in plain sight or whatever. JMO The police are trying to make this fit to the charge against DM. However, no real details are being given out, so in my opinion others are connected to this and just because someone (O )claims that they are not more involved than people think they are, does not mean they aren't involved. JMO

When pressed for details, he runs. Why would you need a lawyer to talk to the Star?

BBM
This totally confuses me. Just so I understand... You think LE have associated Odlum with the gun because his prints were found on it and they found it near to DM and are using this to frame DM? By your own statement (UBM) even if he had used this gun in the past....does that mean he may not have sold it DM? I would be highly surprised if all black market guns sold were shiny and new with no prints or "scuff marks". JMO

 

[swedie]

This article by the Spec more that suggests that the gun was linked to Laura's death IMO.

DM can PLAN and be impulsive at the same time. He's a good multi-tasker. JMO

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...efore-she-was-reported-missing-police-allege/

BBM - You're right Matou, if he planned to steal TB's truck and toss TB from his truck but then upon impulse decided to murder him, it's very possible for someone to make plans but then act upon impulse. E.i., I planned on going window shopping yesterday and not spend any money, but upon impulse I bought a new suit, a blue, plaid, an Alexander McQueen. Upon passing by the salon, I had the impulse to get my greasy, hair washed and cut.

I think through the trial we'll find out WM, LB and TB were all shot. LB and TB by the same gun. I have a suspicion there where other guns in the Millard household other then the ones used on WM, LB and TB and the one which a reporter seen through the window and took a picture of. WM was against seal hunting and maybe other types of hunting, done in a cruel fashion, but maybe shotgun hunting met his approval. IIRC there a video of DM shooting some sort of a gun with friends at the hangar? Could have been an air soft rifle, but it did show he had an interest in guns regardless. ALL JMO.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

When contacted by the Star on Friday, Mathew Odlum, 27, confirmed his charge of trafficking a firearm was linked to the police case against Millard.

“I think you might think that I’m a little more involved in this than I am,” Odlum said. “We’re going years back, this is from two or three years ago.”

Odlum said his understanding is that police allege he illegally sold a gun to Millard. When pressed for details, he quickly got off the phone, saying he wanted to speak to a lawyer.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...efore-she-was-reported-missing-police-allege/

Seems like it is singling out DM to me. :waitasec:

MOO

Apr 12, 2014
Laura Babcock dead before she was reported missing, police allege
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...efore-she-was-reported-missing-police-allege/

If MO said in April 2014, the gun trafficking may be 2-3 years ago, then it could be 2012. Why saying by MO "“I think you might think that I’m a little more involved in this than I am,” Odlum said. “We’re going years back, this is from two or three years ago.” That's just stupid talking around the point.
Did he fear that he might be indirectly responsible for the death of TB and that would be in his eyes perhaps more immoral than to be responsible for two other possible murders?

 

[swedie]

This article by the Spec more that suggests that the gun was linked to Laura's death IMO.

DM can PLAN and be impulsive at the same time. He's a good multi-tasker. JMO

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4...efore-she-was-reported-missing-police-allege/

BBM - You're right Matou, if he planned to steal TB's truck and toss TB from his truck but then upon impulse decided to murder him, it's very possible for someone to make plans but then act upon impulse. E.i., I planned on going window shopping yesterday and not spend any money, but upon impulse I bought a new suit, a blue, plaid, an Alexander McQueen. Upon passing by the salon, I had the impulse to get my greasy, hair washed and cut.

I think through the trial we'll find out WM, LB and TB were all shot. LB and TB by the same gun. I have a suspicion there where other guns in the Millard household other then the ones used on WM, LB and TB and the one which a reporter seen through the window and took a picture of. WM was against seal hunting and maybe other types of hunting, done in a cruel fashion, but maybe shotgun hunting met his approval. IIRC there a video of DM shooting some sort of a gun with friends at the hangar? Could have been an air soft rifle, but it did show he had an interest in guns regardless. ALL JMO.

 

[SnooperDuper]

BBM
This totally confuses me. Just so I understand... You think LE have associated Odlum with the gun because his prints were found on it and they found it near to DM and are using this to frame DM? By your own statement (UBM) even if he had used this gun in the past....does that mean he may not have sold it DM? I would be highly surprised if all black market guns sold were shiny and new with no prints or "scuff marks". JMO

Fingerprints are rather fragile and I personally doubt that fingerprint evidence for all three Matthews plus DM remained when LE started investigating more than a year after the gun was first acquired. (By the time charges were laid it had been a couple years, as MO pointed out.) Even DNA evidence would be iffy. Neither prints not DNA would explain the relationship between the gun, the M's and DM. Text and social media communication would though, and there is some suggestion that MWJ was using his Instagram account to sell things, including guns. IMO there is probably an electronic discussion between these players that persisted and came to the attention of LE. It seems to me to be the only kind of evidence that would be clear and persist for so long.

For that matter, it could be witness testimony:

the same 29-person “no contact” list which applies to both Millard and Smich

http://www.bayview-news.com/2014/05/dellen-millard-in-rough-shape-says-blogger-pi.html/

29 people is a large number of potential witnesses that could testify against these two. That's a long list! Surely one of them knows something about the gun.

 

[Tamarind]

BBM
This totally confuses me. Just so I understand... You think LE have associated Odlum with the gun because his prints were found on it and they found it near to DM and are using this to frame DM? By your own statement (UBM) even if he had used this gun in the past....does that mean he may not have sold it DM? I would be highly surprised if all black market guns sold were shiny and new with no prints or "scuff marks". JMO

It's an opinion, as in, a possible scenario. he may or may not have sold the gun to DM, we have no idea at the moment. IMO.
I have no idea what all black market guns look like either but I don't think the colour or the shine will make much difference either way. LE obviously linked that gun to Odlum somehow. How do you think they linked that gun to him ? and as a trafficker of it? Do you think he may have sold it with a bill of sale and signed it? Or is it possible that some other identifying marks were on it, ie: prints?

 

[Tamarind]

BBM - You're right Matou, if he planned to steal TB's truck and toss TB from his truck but then upon impulse decided to murder him, it's very possible for someone to make plans but then act upon impulse. E.i., I planned on going window shopping yesterday and not spend any money, but upon impulse I bought a new suit, a blue, plaid, an Alexander McQueen. Upon passing by the salon, I had the impulse to get my greasy, hair washed and cut.

I think through the trial we'll find out WM, LB and TB were all shot. LB and TB by the same gun. I have a suspicion there where other guns in the Millard household other then the ones used on WM, LB and TB and the one which a reporter seen through the window and took a picture of. WM was against seal hunting and maybe other types of hunting, done in a cruel fashion, but maybe shotgun hunting met his approval. IIRC there a video of DM shooting some sort of a gun with friends at the hangar? Could have been an air soft rifle, but it did show he had an interest in guns regardless. ALL JMO.

Having an interest in guns does not make someone a murderer. I have an interest in guns. I have family members who hunt. FWIW. It really is of no relevance IMO how many guns were stored at the Millard home. LE obviously did not find anything incriminating when WM was found and they ruled it a suicide. That leads me to believe that the gun that WM used was still there and not found to be suspicious. JMO. This gun that Odlum is connected to seems to be a random gun, if LE are now claiming it was the one used by WM, I think there is a lot more to the story than first appears, and likely unrelated to DM IMO

We know that WM died by gun already. We just don't know if it was by his own hands or someone elses . If we assume LB and TB were both shot, that doesn't mean DM was the killer. We still have no body for LB and TB body was burned beyond recognition so we are told. I wonder how believable it will be that they were shot when there are no bodies to speak of or check?

 

[Tamarind]

Fingerprints are rather fragile and I personally doubt that fingerprint evidence for all three Matthews plus DM remained when LE started investigating more than a year after the gun was first acquired. (By the time charges were laid it had been a couple years, as MO pointed out.) Even DNA evidence would be iffy. Neither prints not DNA would explain the relationship between the gun, the M's and DM. Text and social media communication would though, and there is some suggestion that MWJ was using his Instagram account to sell things, including guns. IMO there is probably an electronic discussion between these players that persisted and came to the attention of LE. It seems to me to be the only kind of evidence that would be clear and persist for so long.

For that matter, it could be witness testimony:


http://www.bayview-news.com/2014/05/dellen-millard-in-rough-shape-says-blogger-pi.html/

29 people is a large number of potential witnesses that could testify against these two. That's a long list! Surely one of them knows something about the gun.

We should also remember that several people used the Millard home as a home, work place, party place etc. Many likely had access to the home and the computers. I still haven't forgotten that someone was using DM's hotmail address along with their own name. So there will be a lot of inter-connectivity IMO and will likely create quite a bit of muddied water.

 

[Alethea Dice]

IIRC there a video of DM shooting some sort of a gun with friends at the hangar? Could have been an air soft rifle, but it did show he had an interest in guns regardless. ALL JMO.

Are you talking about the paint ball pictures??

 

[SnooperDuper]

We should also remember that several people used the Millard home as a home, work place, party place etc. Many likely had access to the home and the computers. I still haven't forgotten that someone was using DM's hotmail address along with their own name. So there will be a lot of inter-connectivity IMO and will likely create quite a bit of muddied water.

But after WM was killed and MS moved out, DM lived at his home alone, no? And it's unlikely a partier was using the computer e.g., early evening Monday May 6, 2013, as Monday is not a big party night.

I don't think it's going to be all that complicated to figure things out, especially during the period that DM had his home to himself.

I'm sure at this point, there is far too much evidence for DM or MS to claim they weren't there and weren't involved...they are going to have to admit that they were in on this caper and their only hopes, IMO, are to pin the blame on each other.

It's too late to bring in an unchecked alibi and allege that there were others behind this. If it were so, the time to talk was 2 years ago.

7-1/2 months to go until trial, 4 months for the trial itself - it will still be another year for you before DM's baldfaced lies are shown to be what they are.

 

[Tamarind]

But after WM was killed and MS moved out, DM lived at his home alone, no?

Did he? Do we know when MS moved out? Do we know whether or not anyone else was living there? Was someone sleeping over when WM died?

And it's unlikely a partier was using the computer e.g., early evening Monday May 6, 2013, as Monday is not a big party night.

Why is it unlikely that a partier / guest / visitor / intruder used a computer? WM died in November not May IIRC. If you are meaning the night TB went missing we would need to know what time DM was out and where he was and who he was with. Maybe his house was left open and empty. Maybe he didnt lock doors, many people dont.

I don't think it's going to be all that complicated to figure things out, especially during the period that DM had his home to himself.

We don't know that he did have the home to himself. I believe another acquaintance based his business from the Millard Home. Maybe he had a key. We have know idea who had a key or gained entry IMO.

I'm sure at this point, there is far too much evidence for DM or MS to claim they weren't there and weren't involved...they are going to have to admit that they were in on this caper and their only hopes, IMO, are to pin the blame on each other.

I am not as sure as you are and I think if they were going to admit to being on this caper they would have plead guilty by now JMO. It is possible that DM or MS is unaware of what the other knows about certain things. Or maybe they both have a hunch about something. Or maybe one has figured out something and can't say anything at this point. :worms:

It's too late to bring in an unchecked alibi and allege that there were others behind this. If it were so, the time to talk was 2 years ago.

It's never too late to tell an alibi, but we have discussed this before IIRC.

7-1/2 months to go until trial, 4 months for the trial itself - it will still be another year for you before DM's baldfaced lies are shown to be what they are.

Why are you so sure it's DM thats such a liar? Aren't two people charged? Then of course there are the peripheral contenders who have gun connections amongst other connections.

 

[swedie]

Fingerprints are rather fragile and I personally doubt that fingerprint evidence for all three Matthews plus DM remained when LE started investigating more than a year after the gun was first acquired. (By the time charges were laid it had been a couple years, as MO pointed out.) Even DNA evidence would be iffy. Neither prints not DNA would explain the relationship between the gun, the M's and DM. Text and social media communication would though, and there is some suggestion that MWJ was using his Instagram account to sell things, including guns. IMO there is probably an electronic discussion between these players that persisted and came to the attention of LE. It seems to me to be the only kind of evidence that would be clear and persist for so long.

For that matter, it could be witness testimony:


http://www.bayview-news.com/2014/05/dellen-millard-in-rough-shape-says-blogger-pi.html/

29 people is a large number of potential witnesses that could testify against these two. That's a long list! Surely one of them knows something about the gun.

BBM - Along with the other five who were present and charged at that time, and interestingly enough some had their charges dropped later. Witnesses for the Crown? MOO.

Seven people are facing a total of almost 100 charges after police seized a loaded AK-47 assault rifle, among other items, during a drug raid in Mississauga.

Four men and three women, ranging in age from 25 to 53, were arrested.

They face 98 firearms and drug-related charges, including possession of a loaded prohibited or restricted weapon, unauthorized possession of a firearm, careless storage of a firearm and cocaine and marijuana possession.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...t-loaded-ak-47-seized-police/article16222661/

 

[Tamarind]

[/B]
BBM - Along with the other five who were present and charged at that time, and interestingly enough some had their charges dropped later. Witnesses for the Crown? MOO.

Seven people are facing a total of almost 100 charges after police seized a loaded AK-47 assault rifle, among other items, during a drug raid in Mississauga.

Four men and three women, ranging in age from 25 to 53, were arrested.

They face 98 firearms and drug-related charges, including possession of a loaded prohibited or restricted weapon, unauthorized possession of a firearm, careless storage of a firearm and cocaine and marijuana possession.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...t-loaded-ak-47-seized-police/article16222661/

Some people do get charges dropped if they become informants for LE, I believe they also get paid. I'm not sure why this is allowed as it seems wrong to pay people for information, it doesn't seem right somehow but thats JMO. In the case linked I suspect that charges were dropped for reasons pertaining to the charges themselves being unreliable. It is quite usual for charges to get dropped for some and added for others. I don't think its related to the Bosma case JMO MOO

 

[Sillybilly]

A bit OT and lands at random, but as a matter of interest related to psychopathy, am currently reading Robert Hare's book "Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us". Although the words are not Hare's, I found it interesting that he chose this as part of his introduction to the subject:

Good people are rarely suspicious: they cannot imagine others doing the things they themselves are incapable of doing; usually they accept the undramatic solution as the correct one, and let matters rest there. Then too, the normal are inclined to visualize the [psychopath] as one who’s as monstrous in appearance as he is in mind, which is about as far from the truth as one could well get. … These monsters of real life usually looked and behaved in a more normal manner than their actually normal brothers and sisters; they presented a more convincing picture of virtue than virtue presented of itself – just as the wax rosebud or the plastic peach seemed more perfect to the eye, more what the mind thought a rosebud or a peach should be, than the imperfect original from which it had been modelled.

~ William March, The Bad Seed

 

[Tamarind]

A bit OT and lands at random, but as a matter of interest related to psychopathy, am currently reading Robert Hare's book "Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us". Although the words are not Hare's, I found it interesting that he chose this as part of his introduction to the subject:

Good people are rarely suspicious: they cannot imagine others doing the things they themselves are incapable of doing; usually they accept the undramatic solution as the correct one, and let matters rest there. Then too, the normal are inclined to visualize the [psychopath] as one who’s as monstrous in appearance as he is in mind, which is about as far from the truth as one could well get. … These monsters of real life usually looked and behaved in a more normal manner than their actually normal brothers and sisters; they presented a more convincing picture of virtue than virtue presented of itself – just as the wax rosebud or the plastic peach seemed more perfect to the eye, more what the mind thought a rosebud or a peach should be, than the imperfect original from which it had been modelled.

~ William March, The Bad Seed

I was once told by a friend of mine who regularly works with psychiatric patients, that altruism ( perceived goodness) although desired, is a very unlikely trait in people. This would seem to suggest that people who feel they are good or as close as possible to altruistic may be deceiving themselves. Good is also subjective IMO

If normal people visualize a psychopath as being monstrous looking, there were likely many traumatized normal people after the Paul Bernardo Trial. I think the wise may be inclined to glean that good and evil can present in various shapes and forms and hide behind various guises and professions. JMO

There is also the moulding by todays society to become fearful and suspicious and I think that maybe the author of that fictional novel was not exposed to present day societal fear mongering, being that it was written in 1954. JMO

Thanks for that info sillybilly, I enjoyed reading up on it.

 

[hopingforjustice]

It's an opinion, as in, a possible scenario. he may or may not have sold the gun to DM, we have no idea at the moment. IMO.
I have no idea what all black market guns look like either but I don't think the colour or the shine will make much difference either way. LE obviously linked that gun to Odlum somehow. How do you think they linked that gun to him ? and as a trafficker of it? Do you think he may have sold it with a bill of sale and signed it? Or is it possible that some other identifying marks were on it, ie: prints?

BBM
Your comment regarding a signed bill of sale was I assume meant with much sarcasm, however in reality I think it almost does relate pretty much back to the same end. I believe there is electronic communication that in effect does reflect pretty much a signed receipt. Just my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

http://insidetime.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/May-20121.pdf

Page 43:

Murder: Conspiracy and Joint Enterprise
One Dead; more than one in the Dock

Conspiracy to Murder
The essence of this offence is in the ‘agreement’;
- the agreement to kill – there need not in fact be
a dead body. On the other hand prosecutors
sometimes like to use this charge when there is
more than one person in the dock and all are
alleged to have played a different role in an
unlawful killing. In those circumstances it is
sometimes easier to charge conspiracy to murder
even though there is a body. The authors, for
example, were involved in a gang-land case where
the defendant had been charged with conspiracy
to murder (he was later acquitted) – the murder
victim had been shot by an unknown male who
was with a group of other masked males. The
police made several arrests and tried them all for
conspiracy to murder.
-.-.-.-.-

The intention in a murder charge is an intent to kill
or to cause grievous bodily harm (GBH). The
intention to actually kill must be present in a conspiracy
to murder charge; it is not enough to have
an intention to commit GBH only. However, when
there is an actual death and there is more than
one defendant in the dock the Crown will
sometimes prefer a straight murder charge as the
intention element may be easier for them to prove
than that in a conspiracy charge – i.e. charge
murder on a joint enterprise basis; see below.
Another significant difference is of course the
sentence. We all know that there is only one
sentence for the offence of murder and that is the
mandatory life sentence for adult offenders. That
is not true in conspiracy cases; the sentence is
open – though, depending on the facts, a conspiracy
to murder case may well attract a life sentence.


I just found this, interesting. Maybe that problem will arise?

 

[Arnie M]

.

Speaking of phones again , this time in regards to Laura ...... I wonder if police can go back that far to map out the travels of her cell phone during her last days , and who knows , maybe Dellens phone followed those same routes at those same times.

Absent a recovered body I still bet Police have convincing circumstantial evidence to lay the murder charges , plus some insider testimony from people within that group of freinds.

 

[Arnie M]

A bit OT and lands at random, but as a matter of interest related to psychopathy, am currently reading Robert Hare's book "Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us". Although the words are not Hare's, I found it interesting that he chose this as part of his introduction to the subject:

That information can be very educational , like you mentioned most of us are honest and normal thus we think everybody else around us is the same. How wrong we can be sometimes.

And another important consideration is only a few Psychopaths become murderers ..... most of them are around us at work and in business.

Some wealthy businessmen are completely ruthless Psychopaths who will do anything and everything for money regardless of how much it harms or devastates other people ... they simply do not care .... the popular TV show "The Shark Tank" has one and he admits it constantly. It even shows in his eyes , dark and cold and lifeless.

In the workplace they will covertly sabotage other peoples work , or poison the minds of managers against other staff in order to make themselves look better , and they often learn to use charm as a cover.

Thankfully there are not very many of them in the world , but more are in our midst than are in jail , early family life or lack of it can have an influence on the direction they take. Many of them learn to "act normal" within society yet still have no conscience.