Retrieving wreckage from AirAsia Flight To Singapore- no survivors recovered

[Elainera]

A person on the news last night said that 4 minutes was just about the same time another plane that had trouble at cruising altitude ended up in the water.

I had posted a question in the MH370 thread and would like to ask it here too. Does anybody think that the reason there could be little to no debri would be if the plane ended up doing a perfect vertical entry into the water?

Like in the Olympics when a professional diver gets a 10 and there is little to no splash. Is it possible that a plane could do such a thing and maybe not break up much like we normally would think?
I've been wondering a lot about that lately since it seems the debri is so hard to find so far.

Just now one talking head on CNN said that most planes break up on impact with water. I suppose what you envision is possible, but only remotely.

 

[Hatfield]

I just checked Tomnod and I see they added a campaign to help find QZ8501.

Thats great news. I do think they could actually help find it. This disaster at least has a good starting point which is the last known radar contact.

 

[Elainera]

Yeah, that makes sense it would basically explode apart no matter how perfect an entry. The speed would be incredible and forces when hitting the water should be enough to tear it apart. It is just so surprising how it seems to be so difficult to find debri field. I suppose the area to search is just so vast, it must be a daunting task to try to find it.

The bad part too is as time goes by, any debri field would begin to separate apart and make it harder to find. That is why I was hoping they would find it quickly. It will become harder to find as the pieces spread apart. Although I suppose it may get a little easier to spot an individual piece because they will begin to be all over the place. Kind of a double edged sword there.

The debris field, if there was one, has probably already been dispersed because of the winds and choppy waters.

 

[Elainera]

Sorry if this has been covered - but what's happening with the black box pings?
I am not really understanding why nothing has been found today, they have a much smaller area to look at compared to MH370. Confused...

They need certain equipment to listen to the pings under water. I think today Indonesia offered to supply this equipment tomorrow.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

If you look at that map and the number of islands, I'm starting to think debris will wash up on shore somewhere before they find it in the ocean amongst all the trash they're talking about. Now I've said that I'll likely be proven wrong, but that's what I'm thinking

 

[Gypsy Road]

If you look at that map and the number of islands, I'm starting to think debris will wash up on shore somewhere before they find it in the ocean amongst all the trash they're talking about. Now I've said that I'll likely be proven wrong, but that's what I'm thinking

Hey Mrs G Norris!! Hope you are doing well!

I agree with your post. So many islands in the vicinity of where the plane is thought to have gone down. The other night I googled the area and thought the same thing. On an off topic side note....that Betulig Island...what a beautiful place.

 

[CARIIS]

Hi guys


As we always do, with more info we revise! It would be awesome if media followed suit! IN light of the fact that nothing was spotted today, I am moving more toward in air disintegration after an Air France beginning to the event.


JMO. From a radar (will try and find) had not seen it and it was significant to me in terms of the human component to all accidents. Apparently they had transcended a smaller cloud by doing what they typically do, veering left, around successfully.


As they come around that cell they could tell where the top of the first cell was by flaying adjacent to and around it. Then the beast comes into view. Airplane radar is only forward facing, but cognitively the pilots know what is now behind them, influencing their decision to proceed.


So they did what happens often, requested altitude change but were thrown off by it being not authorized at that time. Then a potent updraft grips the jetliner and throws her upward without pilot input. This would account for the low airspeed, the updraft pushed the nose up.


Now it is dark in the clouds, alarms are blaring, instruments are shaking (near stall speed any aircraft buffets – its kinda like shuttering- it is very noisy in and of itself). They know the plane is going to stall and are trying desperately to get her nose down.


Then either one of two things happened, both fatal. Either the updraft passed, and the nose down inputs kicked in a the nose dropped really quick and now airspeed is rapidly rising (overspend condition- very dangerous). So they had to instantly go from attempting to prevent a stall to now dealing with a nose down aircraft and we unable to arrest decent... or


While in the updraft they were slammed with a downdraft as opposed to the updraft just passing they now had a giant hand pushing them downward. No matter how we got into uncontrolled decent with no recovery capability, my main hunch here is that we have IMO a plane that did not make it intact to low, but was destroyed 2-3 miles above the planet, going god knows how fast, while shedding wingtips, stabilizers, being clobbered with hail, operating engines, ultimately wing and then another wing, evidential leading to the entire fuselage disintegrating in her fatal decent into the ocean.


IF she was decimated at high altitude that fits with nothing being located thus far. Think of a firework plodding in the sky – the debris rains down far and wide. If we then throw in hideous updrafts, downdrafts, while disintegrating then we have debris being blown over a large area during the disintegration.


Sadly, the aforementioned scenario is not quick. Some passengers in TWA 800 were alive during the entire fall (took close to 4 minutes). IN Pan AM 103 the debris field clearly illustrates impact of disintegrating at high allude as it relates to the debris field left on the ground.



Pan AM 103 blew at 30000 some thousand feet, here was her debris feild (and she was a jumbo- muchmore integrity just by mass!) Locerbie and langholm are 14 MILES apart!

TWA 800 debris feild, she too blew up at atltitude:

Air FRance completly belly flopped , flat on her tummy. She also took four minutes down. Look at the narrow debris feild:

google imagizes

or to give more visual here is pan am 103 before:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/image/jpeg;,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Here is what she was after disinterating at high altitude

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391516/Air-France-Rio-crash-Jet-plunged-4-minutes.html

 

[gregjrichards]

The first full day of a growing multi-nation hunt for an AirAsia passenger jet lost over Indonesian waters ended Monday with few clues to its disappearance and a grim acknowledgment by officials that “the worst may have happened.”

Helicopters and surveillance aircraft from Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Australia returned to their bases, some after flying 10 hours or more over a choppy Java Sea, the focal point of the search for the airliner that was carrying 162 mostly Indonesian passengers and crew.

U.S. officials said they had received a request for help from the Indonesian authorities.

"Our embassy in Jakarta is in close contact with Indonesian officials, and today we received a request for assistance locating the airplane," State Department spokesman Jeff Rathke told reporters in Washington.

http://www.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-airasia-indonesia-20141229-story.html#page=1

New article I thought I would post it. I would like to say many thanks to all of you for your posts and updates they are a fantastic source of information. Happy New Year to you all when it comes.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Flight QZ8501: Your questions answered

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...estions-answered/story-fnizu68q-1227169529491

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Hey Mrs G Norris!! Hope you are doing well!

I agree with your post. So many islands in the vicinity of where the plane is thought to have gone down. The other night I googled the area and thought the same thing. On an off topic side note....that Betulig Island...what a beautiful place.

Hey Gypsy :seeya:

 

[CARIIS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lBUf4HbIa8

GO to 19:20 for the start of the reneacment of what went on inside TWA 800 as she fell apart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbny8XnAifY

 

[SCHMAE]

If you look at that map and the number of islands, I'm starting to think debris will wash up on shore somewhere before they find it in the ocean amongst all the trash they're talking about. Now I've said that I'll likely be proven wrong, but that's what I'm thinking

I thought the same. 370 was over open water with nothing anywhere for literally 100s of miles. This one , if it's in the water, should be found soon . That's a narrow little ' alley' that it went through.

 

[neverletgo]

Flight QZ8501: Your questions answered

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...estions-answered/story-fnizu68q-1227169529491

Here is another set of FAQ to add to the link from Mrs G. Norris above. Snipped:

Q: HOW DOES A PLANE JUST FALL OFF RADAR?

A: It's still unclear what traffic controllers saw on their screens when the plane disappeared from radar. Authorities haven't said whether they lost only the secondary radar target, which is created by the plane's transponder, or whether the primary radar target, created by energy reflected from the plane, was lost as well. If a plane came apart in the air or suffered a loss of electrical power, the secondary target would be lost, but the primary target is often still visible on radar. But if the plane were descending at rate of over 6,000 feet a minute — typical of a plane about to crash — the primary target might be lost as well.

This Q plus more by Scott Mayerowitz, Associated Press Airline and Travel Reporter, at:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ESTIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

 

[CARIIS]

Suspicious objects sighted 160 km SW of Pangkalan Bun .. the red dot on this map ... but they are about 1120 kilometres from the location where the plane lost contact, a long way away. The plane would not have gone straight down, surely, if this is wreckage - even if it has been tossed around by wild seas.

As per SBS (reliable Aust. govt-funded media).
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/12/29/australian-plane-spots-objects-sea

Thats actually good! That is the exact area the weather dude said the currents were going to be going (this was like 35 hours ago) so it fits perfect! We will see huh!

 

[Gypsy Road]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lBUf4HbIa8

GO to 19:20 for the start of the reneacment of what went on inside TWA 800 as she fell apart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbny8XnAifY

That second video was horrifying! I am still shaking after seeing that. I pray that if this plane indeed went down - that everyone was killed instantly and did not have to witness or suffer any of that!

 

[CARIIS]

OT for sinus help: sit in chair and rest back of your head against the back of chair. Tilt head slowly side to side. This helps move air in sinuses and helps drainage.

I have had it with this sinus junk - just ran to Lowes got a wet/vac, so if you never hear from me again you know my brains ended up in the wet vac conatainer!! Kidding kidding but it really is a drag !

 

[Isabelle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lBUf4HbIa8

GO to 19:20 for the start of the reneacment of what went on inside TWA 800 as she fell apart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbny8XnAifY

What a horror. I really don't think the passengers were conscious for as long as the reenactment portrays.

 

[Gypsy Road]

I have had it with this sinus junk - just ran to Lowes got a wet/vac, so if you never hear from me again you know my brains ended up in the wet vac conatainer!! Kidding kidding but it really is a drag !

HAHA! Do not try sucking out your sinus crap with the wet vac. I know you want to try it! LOL

OT - me too!! UGH! Never been so miserable with it in my life! Congested way up in my head....nose bleeding...but nothing else will come out. I am plugged! Miserable pain!

 

[Intermezzo]

What we know so far

It’s nearly noon in Surabaya. Here’s where we are on the search for missing AirAsia flight QZ8501:

Boats and aircraft from Indonesia, Malaysia, Australia and Singapore are combing a patch of the Java Sea near where AirAsia flight QZ8501 disappeared early on Sunday morning. No wreckage or survivors have yet been sighted.

The chief of the rescue effort, Bambang Soelistyo, said the “preliminary suspicion” is that the plane is “at the bottom of the sea”.
He said that Indonesia lacked the tools that would be needed to lift wreckage from the bottom of the sea, and would reach out to other countries for help.

The Indonesian transport minister, Ignasius Jonan, has announced a review of AirAsia Indonesia in light of the incident.
“Much will be reviewed in terms of its business operations and in terms of air transportation business, so that there are safety improvements,” he said.

Indonesian officials remain hopeful that any wreckage of the plane will be found, as visibility has improved and the Java Sea, where the plane disappeared from radar screens, is relatively shallow. There are around six hours of daylight left on Monday.

An extended family of ten and another of five people, including three children, are among those who narrowly missed boarding the QZ8501, which officials now believe crashed into the water about 42 minutes after taking off.

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014...rch-for-missing-flight-resumes-at-first-light

thank you very much for posting this...I heard about the missing plane and am trying to catch up to the thread
Thank you to all who have been posting!

Not sure if this has been asked..but isn't the Java Sea part of the major shipping lanes in the area? Have there been reports of any sort of debris sighting yet?

 

[CARIIS]

What a horror. I really don't think the passengers were conscious for as long as the reenactment portrays.

Sadly in a lot of inicidents many are - they can tell if there is water in their lungs - means they were breathing at impact. THey can tell time to pass out by blood oxygen levels , the meidcial examiner in the final accident report will be able to tell how many(if bodies are found etc) were, were not, dead, unconsiocs etc etc

I cut a lot out just want to give an idea .Here is an idea of how amazing this stuff is:

4.1 Assigned Seats
.
4.2 Assigned Seats with Recovered Victims
4.3 Assigned Seats with Unrecovered Victims
d.
4.4 Victims with Recovered Seats
4.5 Victims with Seats not Recovered
Thirty-three of 455 seats were not recovered. Remains of all of the occupants of the airplane were eventually recovered.
4.6 Recovered Seats and Fire Damaged Seats

4.7 Body Fragmentation
Bodies were coded according to degree of fragmentation or loss of extremities as follows:
0 (green): Body intact.
1 (yellow): Crushed head or loss of one extremity.
2 (blue): Loss of 2 extremities with or without crushed head.
3 (red): Loss of 3 or more extremities or complete transection of body.
fragmentation.
4.8 Seat Damage

Minimal (light blue): Overall condition of seat unit or seat to include: seat legs, seat pan, seat back, armrest, and safety belt restraint system is intact.
Moderate (dark blue): Overall condition of seat unit or seat is intact with minor deformation to one or more components including seat legs, seat pan, seat back, armrest, safety belt restraint system.
Severe (green): Overall condition of seat unit or seat include fractures or deformation of the seat legs, seat pan, seat back, armrest, safety belt restraint system.
Destroyed (yellow): Overall condition of seat unit or seat is such that at least 2 of 5 component parts (seat legs, seat pan, seat back, armrest, safety belt restraint system) are fractured or missing.
Fragmented (red): Overall condition of seat unit or seat is such that more than 3 component parts (seat legs, seat pan, seat back, armrest, safety belt restraint system) are fractured or missing.
The chart shows the degree of seat damage by cabin zone.
4.9 Body Fragmentation and Seat Damage

4.10 Evidence of Seat Restraint Use

Yes: Seat was assigned and physical evidence, such as belt loading, occupant related deformation, belt cut, belt anchor or anchor with portion of belt was missing.
Likely: Physical evidence, such as belt loading, occupant related deformation, and fastened belt.
Possible: Physical evidence of occupant related deformation, belt loading. nknown: No physical evidence of occupancy or restraint use.
Of a possible 422 seats recovered, 57 (14%) were classified as occupied or likely to have been occupied during the crash. Seven (12%) of the seats classified as occupied or likely to have been occupied were unassigned seats.
4.11 Victims with Foreign Bodies
T
4.12 Floating Victims/ Assigned Seats

4.13 Thermal Burns/ Floating Victims and Assigned Seats
T

All 8 burn victims were recovered from the surface of the ocean. None of them had severe bums -most of the burns consisted of singed hair and first or second degree bums primarily over their faces, upper arms, and chest. Of the 8 victims with thermal burns, 7 were assigned to Zone C, The remaining victim was assigned to the first row of Zone D, immediately behind Zone C.
4.14 Thermal Burns (including possible)/ Floating Victims and Assigned Seats
All of the burn victims were recovered from the surface of the ocean.
4.15 Thermal Injuries, Fire Damaged Seats, with Assigned Seats
The purp
4.16 Thermal Injuries (Including Possible), Fire Damaged Seats, with Assigned
Seats


Forty-five percent of the seats recovered displayed right deformation, and 36% of
those recovered were deformed to the left. Seat deformation varied throughout all zones in the cabin, except for the upper deck, which is to the right for all 7 seats recovered (78% of the 9 seats installed).
correlation between injury predominance and seat deformation. A high degree of correlation would suggest that passengers
remained in their seats throughout most of the crash sequence. A poor correlation would

4.22 Injury Predominance: Anterior vs. Posterior
. The premise is that forward motion of the airplane with respect to occupant seating and the
protective effect of the seat at the occupant's back, would cause a seat occupant to have predominantly anterior injuries unless he was separated from the seat. The chart further
depicts injury percentages by cabin zone.
One hundred sixteen victims exhibited anterior or posterior predominance of injuries. Eighty-two percent had predominant y anterior injuries and 18 percent
exhibited primarily posterior injuries.
The forward transverse seat frame member can create shearing forces across the femur as the upper leg contacts the seat frame in crashes with a significant vertical force vector. Mid-shaft femur fractures were correlated with evidence of downward loading to the horizontal seat frame in this crash.
There were 39 passengers with mid-shaft femur fractures and 45 seats with evidence of downward loading of the anterior horizontal seat frame. Fifteen percent of victims with mid-shaft femur fractures were assigned to seats with evidence of downward loading.

http://www.100megspopup.com/ark/800AutpsySumries.html