REVISIT Does LE have enough evidence to Convict Casey on 1st Degree Murder?

[rhornsby]

Ah...another miscarriage of justice? I think not. I don't envy you. How much time is "enough" for someone who kills their own child?

How much time is enough for someone who didn't intentionally cause the death of their own child?

It so easy to speak in a vacuum when you know so little.

 

[rhornsby]

So Jason Lenz was charged with First Degree Murder but premeditation did NOT have to be proven

And Casey Anthony is charged with First Degree Murder but premeditation WILL have to be proven?

I am just not understanding the difference?

MR Hornsby,

Can you explain why lesser offenses were not included during the first trial?

You understand correctly: If you and a buddy are robbing a house and your buddy kills the owner, who you didn't know would be present, the death is not premeditated (meaning it was the intended act).

Rather the death occurred in the commission of the felony (the burglary).

Nevertheless, you the co-defendant will be charged with First Degree Felony Murder even though you who did not have the gun and did not intend for the death to occur.

Now if both of you have gone there with the intent to kill the person, you would be looking at First Degree Murder by Premeditated Design.

 

[Just Jayla]

I guess it goes without writing that none of us know what exactly will be introduced at trial as evidence. So no need to debate whether or not I know anything as fact-

If nothing changed about my perception of KC, then practicality, to me, dictates that of course she will receive the DP, it follows (my) logic.

However, if we start to see bits and pieces of craziness out of KC, testmony that she really has been mentally ill all her life, find out that she has had greater and/or diagnosed issues as a child, things could change. We don't know what the psych is going to say, M. Murphy, Kio, and JG may even delve into this more. LA may shed light. So, while the evidence and it alone appear to be there for a guilty verdict, I see some potential for revelation at the sentencing.

 

[notthatsmart]

*snipped by me*

Circumstantial evidence is like a puzzle. No one piece is going to show you the entire picture on the front of the box. However as you start putting the pieces together they begin to reveal the picture. Now in some cases you may not have every piece of the puzzle but once you have enough pieces the picture is pretty clear even with a few missing. For example you may have a puzzle with the golden gate bridge on it. Despite having a couple pieces missing it's still pretty clear the image is of the golden gate bridge.

That is essentially how circumstantial evidence works. The SA lays the pieces out for the jury and the jury is allowed to interpret the image for themselves using their own reasoning skills. So for example the juror sees the image of a large red colored suspension bridge spanning over a large body of water with a picturesque skyline of San Fransico however a few pieces of the water are missing from the puzzle. That person would know based on their own reasoning "Hey it's the Golden gate Bridge".

Why?, because it's the only reasonable answer. One could argue it's the Brooklyn Bridge all day long however at the end of the day the Brooklyn Bridge isn't red in color and the city skylines are completely different so therefore it's unreasonable to conclude it's anything other then it's the Golden Gate Bridge.

That's basically how it works. Each individual piece isn't going to give you the big picture, but when put together they give a reasonable conclusion that shows every other conclusion to be unreasonable based on the reasoning skills of your average person.

So with all of that said the pieces of this particular puzzle paint us a pretty clear picture. Other then arguing level of murder based on premed or not I would say any other explanation the defense can muster would be rather unreasonable...like RK doing it for example.

All moo

I just respectfully disagree. Its not a logical conclusion when you haven't established the fact. If the hair was a piece of post mortem death band, that would be good enough. However we have not established that it is the post mortem death band. If the tape was a piece of an exact match, that would be good enoough, however, it does not match. It is not the golden gate bridge. If the vfa was a piece of bodily fluid, that would be good enough, however it is not a piece, it is not even established if it came from a human. If the adipocere like substance was a piece of actual adipocere, that would be good enough, but they have not concluded that it is actually adipocere let alone of human remains. The problem with your theory is that the pieces are questionable. So for me, that is not good enough. Not being snarky here, I respect your opinion, but I can't take pieces of the Brooklyn bridge and fit them with the Golden gate bridge. The adipocere like substance is the one that really gets me. That could easily be determined in a lab environment, but yet they fail to give us that information. There is no smoking gun here. I come to my opinion after reading all the documents in the case. So it is my interpretation of the facts and my opinion only.

 

[JBean]

Let's please be careful to break out the discussion to the proper threads, myself included. IOW, if you want to discuss the evidence itself in detail, please find the right thread. thanks

where this post land on the thread is random
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Topic is:
Do you think LE has enough evidence for a first degree premeditated murder conviction?

 

[logicalgirl]

This dude was left alone in a car with his girfriends 3 mo old baby girl Alexa. She was fine when mom left.
Mom retunrs to the car and the baby is clearly in distress. Baby dies from blunt force trauma inflicted by the boyfriend while mom was out of the car.

http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2010/jan/14/141625/jury-deliberates-verdict-baby-death-case/
SEBRING - It took roughly three-and-a-half hours for a Highlands County jury to find Edgar Otero guilty of the lesser offense of manslaughter in connection with the November 2007 death of 3-month-old Alexa Hall, the daughter of his former girlfriend.

Otero, 31, was originally charged with first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse.
The jury of seven women and five men left the courtroom at 11:46 a.m. Thursday to start deliberating.


http://florida-issues.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-penalty-sought-in-2-murder-cases.html

Originally, investigators thought that Hall died of shaken baby syndrome, but an autopsy by the District 13

Medical Examiner's Office in Hillsborough County later showed that she died of blunt force trauma.
On the morning of Nov. 12, Brandy Hall, the baby's mother, and Otero, reportedly brought the child in to the Florida Hospital emergency room for an unknown sickness.


But then again:

FORT PIERCE, Fla., Feb. 4 (UPI) -- A 32-year-old Florida woman will spend her life in prison after pleading guilty to killing her 8-year-old son on Christmas Day 2008, a prosecutor says.
TCPalm.com reported Thursday Eryn Allegra of Port St. Lucie pleaded guilty to premeditated first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse charges in a plea deal with prosecutors that lets her avoid a possible death penalty.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010...-in-Christmas-Day-killing/UPI-19381265302996/

With all respect I don't see how the first case and Caylee's death can be compared. This child you speak of was left alone with the boyfriend for three hours. Caylee was in the care of her mother and not reported missing for 30+ days. This child was taken to emergency by the mother and her boyfriend. Caylee's bones were found months later scattered over a large area of a dumping ground and her decomp found in the trunk of her mothers car. This chid may have died from shaken baby syndrome,or from blunt force trauma. Caylee was found with duct tape covering her nose and mouth. This child never left the care of the mother and her boyfriend. Caylee was left with an invisible nanny while her mother worked at an invisible job and very visibly partied and tattooed for 30+ days after the last day Casey saw her child, and then refused to cooperate with LE, claiming SODDI.
IMO, considering the big picture of both cases, I see little to compare. We will have to wait and see if it can be proven the duct tape killed Caylee. But to me, the assumption would be enough to vote premeditated.

 

[JBean]

With all respect I don't see how the first case and Caylee's death can be compared. This child you speak of was left alone with the boyfriend for three hours. Caylee was in the care of her mother and not reported missing for 30+ days. This child was taken to emergency by the mother and her boyfriend. Caylee's bones were found months later scattered over a large area of a dumping ground and her decomp found in the trunk of her mothers car. This chid may have died from shaken baby syndrome,or from blunt force trauma. Caylee was found with duct tape covering her nose and mouth. This child never left the care of the mother and her boyfriend. Caylee was left with an invisible nanny while her mother worked at an invisible job and very visibly partied and tattooed for 30+ days after the last day Casey saw her child, and then refused to cooperate with LE, claiming SODDI.
IMO, considering the big picture of both cases, I see little to compare. We will have to wait and see if it can be proven the duct tape killed Caylee. But to me, the assumption would be enough to vote premeditated.

just posting cases where premed was charged and they were convicted of something else and/or to the uniqueness of what people are convicted of. that's all.

In this case a caretaker kills a child under his charge. No more no less. No 2 cases are ever alike so I wouldn;t even try to compare cases on their merit or on evidence.
That is why I titled my post:
"each case is unique"

 

[Tulessa]

I think they can TRY for premeditated, but I'm not 100% sure they will get it.

 

[logicalgirl]

I think they can TRY for premeditated, but I'm not 100% sure they will get it.

I just can't think of any reason a child's airways could be duct taped and not be premeditated, and I can't think of any reason why a child's body would be driven around in the trunk of a car until it leaked decomp, except that it was premeditated. I believe accepting those two details as fact, the jury will have no choice but to believe the death was premeditated. I have no idea how the defense will prove otherwise because it will only be Casey's word, and even the judge stated the truth and Casey Anthony are strangers. Who's going to believe her based on the other circumstantial evidence. I don't think even her parents really believe her - "thou doth protest too much".

 

[2goldfish]

I just can't think of any reason a child's airways could be duct taped and not be premeditated, and I can't think of any reason why a child's body would be driven around in the trunk of a car until it leaked decomp, except that it was premeditated. I believe accepting those two details as fact, the jury will have no choice but to believe the death was premeditated. I have no idea how the defense will prove otherwise because it will only be Casey's word, and even the judge stated the truth and Casey Anthony are strangers. Who's going to believe her based on the other circumstantial evidence. I don't think even her parents really believe her - "thou doth protest too much".

the problem IMO is that even now there are people who believe caylee died in an accident and that KC tried to cover it up. with what we know at this time, that cannot be absolutely ruled out.

Now.....when we know the full results of the tests....and for example the duct tape contains caylee's fingerprints or signs that her mouth was moving after she was taped.....

there is the signs of premediation.

if the tape is too degraded to show these things, or KC did in fact drug caylee first so that she couldnt move.... I suspect KC may end up with murder not premeditated but murder during the commission of a felony (child abuse) but we cant know the jury may not feel a cover up cannot be ruled out - in which case she may even walk.

 

[okiedokietoo]

In the BB Store Video, KC does not look like an emotionally distraught mother of a missing child. She doesn't look like an emotionally distraught mother of a child that died earlier that day from an accident.
TL said they watched movies that night and KC acted fine - not upset etc.
Would a person that committed premeditated Murder be emotionally distraught or look just like KC did in the BB Video?

As far as finger prints at the crime scene and in the car, the lack of finger prints is more of an issue to me - CA has admitted that she washed items, not sure if she has admitted to totally wiping down the car, but why would she stop at just washing clothes - oh and didn't she say she wiped down the doll?

 

[aprilshowers]

The thing that gets me .... and would speak volumes, if I were on the jury is:

1. Not reporting her missing ever (her mom did)

2. Dancing and partying as usual

3. Tapes of her shopping, at the bank, and renting movies (NO stress apparent)

4. Cooking for boyfriend, friends .. etc. .. having sex with boyfriend, with no apparent stress

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

In the BB Store Video, KC does not look like an emotionally distraught mother of a missing child. She doesn't look like an emotionally distraught mother of a child that died earlier that day from an accident.
TL said they watched movies that night and KC acted fine - not upset etc.
Would a person that committed premeditated Murder be emotionally distraught or look just like KC did in the BB Video?

As far as finger prints at the crime scene and in the car, the lack of finger prints is more of an issue to me - CA has admitted that she washed items, not sure if she has admitted to totally wiping down the car, but why would she stop at just washing clothes - oh and didn't she say she wiped down the doll?

Respectfully BBM. And that's just it, isn't it? Casey was fine with whatever had happened, whether Caylee was taken from her, given away by her or killed by her. "KC acted fine - not upset etc." Doesn't that implicate her? (Ugh, unless we want to go down that "I Was Given a Script to Follow" rabbit hole again.)

I think the majority agree that something had already happened to Caylee by the time we see Casey and Tony in the BB video. And Casey was obviously okay with whatever had happened. I am convinced that she made it happen and had no regrets!!! She was enjoying her freedom. :furious:

 

[ZsaZsa]

In the BB Store Video, KC does not look like an emotionally distraught mother of a missing child. She doesn't look like an emotionally distraught mother of a child that died earlier that day from an accident.
TL said they watched movies that night and KC acted fine - not upset etc.
Would a person that committed premeditated Murder be emotionally distraught or look just like KC did in the BB Video?

As far as finger prints at the crime scene and in the car, the lack of finger prints is more of an issue to me - CA has admitted that she washed items, not sure if she has admitted to totally wiping down the car, but why would she stop at just washing clothes - oh and didn't she say she wiped down the doll?

A sociopath like Casey could murder and then go dancing, watching videos, and she did just that. She has no conscience, she is completely narcissistic, no blame ever attaches to her.

 

[ZsaZsa]

the problem IMO is that even now there are people who believe caylee died in an accident and that KC tried to cover it up. with what we know at this time, that cannot be absolutely ruled out.

Now.....when we know the full results of the tests....and for example the duct tape contains caylee's fingerprints or signs that her mouth was moving after she was taped.....

there is the signs of premediation.

if the tape is too degraded to show these things, or KC did in fact drug caylee first so that she couldnt move.... I suspect KC may end up with murder not premeditated but murder during the commission of a felony (child abuse) but we cant know the jury may not feel a cover up cannot be ruled out - in which case she may even walk.

But it is odd that her parents never explored an accidental death with her, in all their visits and questions, isn't it? Casey knows that they would not have believed it if she had told them of an accident, they knew her too well .

 

[logicalgirl]

the problem IMO is that even now there are people who believe caylee died in an accident and that KC tried to cover it up. with what we know at this time, that cannot be absolutely ruled out.

Now.....when we know the full results of the tests....and for example the duct tape contains caylee's fingerprints or signs that her mouth was moving after she was taped.....

there is the signs of premediation.

if the tape is too degraded to show these things, or KC did in fact drug caylee first so that she couldnt move.... I suspect KC may end up with murder not premeditated but murder during the commission of a felony (child abuse) but we cant know the jury may not feel a cover up cannot be ruled out - in which case she may even walk.

Based on what we know now in evidence and depositions, etc., there has been lots of attempts to cover up Casey's acts, but nothing whatsoever to even begin to establish that SODDI or that it was an accident. There is no explanation for the 31 days, the decomp in the trunk and the duct tape. And there never will be.

This is not the OJ case. IMO, and I realize this may be deemed argumentative, but that case was lost because the SA spent too much time in front of the cameras showing off instead of paying attention to a very clever defense team. He was clearly guilty, but the SA was so sloppy, he walked.

What have we got here? A quiet, efficient SA team - who from what I can see have put together a mountain of evidence and conducted themselves well beyond reproach. The defense on the other hand, is disjointed, unorganized, under experienced, etc. etc. And Cindy and George don't believe it was an accident, why would a jury?

Walk? H*** No!

 

[BondJamesBond]

IMHO there's sufficient in released-to-date info that will have a jury hard-pressed to go w/ anything less than murder during the commission of a felony. SA will have to support that the abuse - in general, not specific, terms - occurred at Casey's hands, and that failure to seek aid or report...ever...precludes an "accident". The SA will do well not to distract the jury with zfg nonsense.

 

[Intermezzo]

-----------------------
I agree. i just finished spending over an hour re~reading the entire autopsy report. I wish everyone would read it! It is a wealth of info..One thing that stands out to me is that this is from the M.E. and Profs. who are not on either "side" of this case,they just tell what is.I forgot many of her little bones were found buried in the muck caused by the heavy rain..A good read.:angel:

BBM
Thanks Nore
Caylee was bones and not flesh ..no body, but skeletal remains.
I am remembering in court when Ashton describe the duct tape being placed on Caylee by her murderer, Very Powerful, his words grabbed hold of me and didn't let go.
Now look into the future, picture him at trial describing the above, very poignantly, and add how Caylee was found and her little bones were scattered over a wide area and how diligently people worked to collect as much of Caylee's remains as they possibly could.

 

[Tulessa]

But it is odd that her parents never explored an accidental death with her, in all their visits and questions, isn't it? Casey knows that they would not have believed it if she had told them of an accident, they knew her too well .

Zsa, I still think they were communicating through JB. It's hard telling what kind of story she has told her parents.

 

[RR0004]

How much time is enough for someone who didn't intentionally cause the death of their own child?

It so easy to speak in a vacuum when you know so little.

Like I said...I don't envy you. A jury of his peers thought otherwise. I have faith in our legal system...no vacuum there. JMHO

PS...and I was nice about it!

PPS- Sorry for OT