Sentencing and beyond- Jodi Arias General Discussion #2

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Funny, you and I have said "no sex" that day for what seems like forever. Most disagreed with us though, lol.


I still disagree. :)

I don't believe at all that he invited her, but am less sure whether or not she invited herself during one of those last 2 calls with him while she was in CA. I think she might have.

In her "manifesto" tirade she mentions that she returned his handwritten chapter 1 of his book that day, and says she had it because he asked her to edit it or some such. Bull. She stole it from him on her way out of town, and it was precious to him.

She also brought him $$ she owed him for the car, and photos she'd promised him before. All of that was no doubt wrapped up in the great big lie that she'd moved on to Ryan, was happy, and just wanted to make things right with him.

I don't think he waited up for her, I do think she snuck in after she saw him turn lights off, and that she went first to his office to mess with his computer.

Some time after that (as late as early afternoon)I think she woke him up, that he wasn't thrilled, but that he did have sex with her, then deleted the pics ASAP. I agree with those who think he believed she had left before his shower, and that he hadnt agreed beforehand to have her take the shower pics, but "agreed" when she surprised him again because he felt vulnerable in the shower and had been caught off guard again.
 
Hope not... one of the things I learned from the book the Hughes put out, was that Travis was embarrassed the only time he did cheat on an ex... I always thought it was weird he'd be talking about doing right and finding a wife after the mess with Arias and then all of the sudden he goes back on his word when he's about to take Mimi on this trip to Cancun?? JA seemed to be losing all effect on him. He was standing up to her for once, why sleep with someone you believe is a sociopath? That's a nail in any 'relationship.' He's not the type to bed a viper.


His relationship with Lisa was over. He was thrilled at first about Mimi....texts I just read reenforce that, but was never comfortable around her and in any case, Mimi had made it clear she just wanted to be friends, no more, and no possibility of it ever being more.

I think what gets missed in this is just how desperate and afraid Travis felt in his last few months. He says explicitly that he's afraid of losing everything.... his house, his PPL status, and what weighed on him all of the time- his ability to find a wife.

He knew he had to find a wife - for the church - and he wanted to, for the church, but as he and Skye talked about, explicitly, he was terribly afraid of actually committing to anyone, much less entering into a marriage.

From all that I've read, I think Travis had times when he deeply despised himself for what he perceived as character flaws and moral failings. He was his own harshest critic. Thinking the worst of someone else, much less hating them, went against everything he believed in. He considered those feelings a failure.

The killer knew all that about TA, knew his vulnerabilities, and knew how to guilt him into giving her what she wanted. The guilting she mentioned so often didn't come from TA,but from her, as a form of control.

What I'm saying is that I can see her making him feel guilty and bad enough about himself over the things he said to her in the May text that he agreed to let her stop by, and self-loathing enough that she was able to pressure him into having sex.
 
Count me in as I have never believed it either.

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Me either. I always believed her nudies were staged selfies.
 
One of the reasons I believe no sex occurred, and possibly that she wasn't even in the house until late morning or after, is that the furniture had been moved off the floors and he had put together the new floor cleaner - she had no idea about any of that.

When asked about it she began to answer, self-edited and then said something about usually crashing on his couch when he wasn't home but chairs had been on them so she didn't, and that was all. It never entered into any of her diatribes about what happened that morning, had she known anything about the cleaner or the furniture moving she would have had to include herself in it, as she said she got there by 4:00 a.m. So I tend to not believe anything she said about that day's occurrences, including the sex (but that's not the only reason I don't believe the sex lol).
 
IMO Skye is way too prim to be discussing breast implants with anyone, and "sooner" doesn't have any relevance. What difference would sooner or later have made?

Do Mormons generally get breast implants? It seems to me not a Mormon-ish thing to do at all.

As for Deanna...she seems to deal with whatever comes her way in life. I can't imagine she'd be a candidate for implants. Plus, she felt guilty (as did Travis) about sexual activity; it seems very unlikely that she would enhance a sexual organ, especially if it might ever mean not being able to nurture a child.

Why do you think she said that on the stand? Nurmi didn't ask if Sky told her that, CMJA answered a different question about Sky and just added that on, like she did so many times and the Judge let her get away with it.
 
Well , we know they are delusional. Are they putting up Christmas decorations for her homecoming of this year too? :D

She isn't going to get a new trial. But after reading all 3 motions (disqualify, reconsider, sealed records) I'm pretty sure now what they're going for.

The common denominator of all 3, and of most of Nurmi's motions for mistrial, is that she was denied her federal constitutional right to due process (fair trial) because of the "exceptional" amount of publicity her case generated.

Her attorneys know the COA won't disqualify itself judge by judge or as a whole, and they know they risk antagonizing judges by not once but twice questioning their ability to remain impartial. Why do it then? To lay down the claim of exceptional again....as in, this case generated so much publicity and divisiveness that even a sitting COA judge was drawn into the circus, before appeals were heard, and that he wrote an article about her to try to sway his colleagues on the bench.

As for wanting to see JM's book and claiming to be worried sealed info might be included? They know better on both counts of that as well. So why do it? Same reason. This case is so exceptional that even the prosecutor couldn't resist writing a tell- all book about a defendant he obviously despises, maybe even enough to umm...slide over some lines.

A large part of Nurmi's job was to lay the groundwork for a PC appeal. These attys know they're gonna lose at the state level. They're laying the groundwork for a federal appeal, IMO.

Does the fact that she started the ball rolling with the media from the beginning before she ever got to trial? It was her giving all those interviews and lying that got the public interested in this case, how can she claim foul now? She even gave an interview after her conviction saying she wanted the death penalty. I don't see how she can claim she was not given a fair trial. She even went on twitter and had her say.
 
Does the fact that she started the ball rolling with the media from the beginning before she ever got to trial? It was her giving all those interviews and lying that got the public interested in this case, how can she claim foul now? She even gave an interview after her conviction saying she wanted the death penalty. I don't see how she can claim she was not given a fair trial. She even went on twitter and had her say.


She can claim it because she is guaranteed the one direct appeal, and her attorneys are obligated to come up with grounds for appeal, even if they zero chance for success.

What else do they have to work with? They have to use the trial record and only the trial record, and they have to ferret out the DT's objections to substantiate specific claims about the trial process being "unfair."

They're not allowed to argue inadequate counsel. They can and almost certainly will allege prosecutorial misconduct - that JM intimidated witnesses, withheld evidence, etc., but the bar is extremely high for even real misconduct being sufficient to overturn a verdict. Same with the other points they are likely to raise.
 
Tidbit from the texts on BK, about the slashed tires:


TA talked with Samantha shortly after the tires were slashed, and Samantha was 100% convinced the killer had done it. Called the killer a psycho. TA told her that he'd confronted the killer and she had not only denied it but offered to take a lie detector test and pay for it. Sam scoffed at that. TA said he'd actually found someone to do the test.

TA and Lisa also discussed who had slashed the tires, and both said they thought it was the killer. TA wanted to lay in wait at Lisa's house to catch the slasher. She didn't want him to because she was afraid he'd lose it. TA told her that he knew the killer wouldn't come slash the tires that night because he'd told her flat out he suspected her.

Seems like he knew it was the killer but couldn't really wrap his brain around that. When he texted with Skye and others after it happened again a few days later he said he he didn't have any enemies, so maybe an ex- roommate or an ex-girlfriend had done it.
 
His relationship with Lisa was over. He was thrilled at first about Mimi....texts I just read reenforce that, but was never comfortable around her and in any case, Mimi had made it clear she just wanted to be friends, no more, and no possibility of it ever being more.

I think what gets missed in this is just how desperate and afraid Travis felt in his last few months. He says explicitly that he's afraid of losing everything.... his house, his PPL status, and what weighed on him all of the time- his ability to find a wife.

He knew he had to find a wife - for the church - and he wanted to, for the church, but as he and Skye talked about, explicitly, he was terribly afraid of actually committing to anyone, much less entering into a marriage.

From all that I've read, I think Travis had times when he deeply despised himself for what he perceived as character flaws and moral failings. He was his own harshest critic. Thinking the worst of someone else, much less hating them, went against everything he believed in. He considered those feelings a failure.

The killer knew all that about TA, knew his vulnerabilities, and knew how to guilt him into giving her what she wanted. The guilting she mentioned so often didn't come from TA,but from her, as a form of control.

What I'm saying is that I can see her making him feel guilty and bad enough about himself over the things he said to her in the May text that he agreed to let her stop by, and self-loathing enough that she was able to pressure him into having sex.

Sorry, I couldn't shorten my response... oy...

Thing is, despite how humble Travis was and wanted to be, he was surrounded by other Mormons who had advised him to put his foot down with her. I gather that for Travis, sex was the safest he could feel, his friendships weren't going to resolve internalized sense of loss. He lost out on a normal, happy, and healthy childhood. Sure he was a nice person, and the Mormon faith about marriage is strict, but he wanted intimacy. I personally felt that he guilted himself not due to religion, yet due to the understanding there was a general pain he couldn't quite resolve. That psychopath took advantage of this, sure; his job wasn't going to resolve this feeling, his girlfriend wasn't going to resolve it, and he couldn't quite figure out what to do about it. I don't think this had to do with just Arias. His control was already fragile IMO.

Yeah, I think she sized up the fact he didn't trust himself in marital or fatherhood terms. Though I don't think he could have helped it, and he may not have consistently* criticized himself (I don't think self-blame is attributable to just JA). If the physical assault started at an early enough age, the research has been fairly consistent that their overall wiring coincides with long-term effects. It is psychological torture IMO. I'm not a fan of his parents... Two types of therapy are often recommended in that case, medication management for depressive episodes.

I don't think JA's cognition is really that sharp, she's more an abstract thinker; she doesn't have empath superpowers. I just think she's wired like a predator. She started young is all. For her, your body language says it all, and that's it, there's nothing else to your psychological makeup. Her existence lies on picking up on these human attributes. She can mimic people, which just means she pays TOO much unhealthy attention to them and fixates. I think the reason she's disturbing is not because she can accurately identify what makes a person tick (or get ticked off), rather because YOU are the center of her universe and she can make you feel unstable by association. She's a psychopath, people can sense this and develop physical reactions (nervous anxiety, exhaustion, anger, etc etc). She causes fight or flight reaction. Sky noticed it, she felt a sense of dread in her life when JA was around. It just hit Travis a little later...

Persons of battered syndrome however, subconsciously believe anger is bad for them. They associate anger of their abuser, and something that could one day 'infect' them, especially when they want to start a family; anger = "improper" and uncontrollable weakness. It's a rather childish perception about our emotional makeup, but the trauma has stunted their association to anger and their coping mechanisms to it (depends on the individual's experiences and time to get a better grip on it not being permanent). So they inadvertently end up tolerating narcissistic and overly 'charming' personas. A lot of these people end up developing severe problems with managing boundaries. Enter... Jodi Arias.

My point is, Travis passed at age 30. I think he HAD developed MUCH clarity in his last year. He had friends, and all these newer experiences, and women in his life that were telling him how it is. He INVITED those people into his life, he had a better chance to aim higher if he wanted to. I think he hid his inner demons WELL. I think he started to see JA's pity party as is. Otherwise, at least to me, it seems he would not have been more brazen. He was insecure, but again, don't think it was just because of CMJA. I don't think he was 'a hopeless case,' (I'm not saying that you said that btw, Hope4More, just devil's advocate here) if you will.

I had a conservative influence in my upbringing as well. I can recall at least two individuals that have made me feel horrible by association. They seem to have their "prey." It's a stalker personality. The religion also influences your notions about forgiveness and anger towards others. However, I think the word anger is given too much credit, confusion is the main problem. You should take the time necessary to understand what is making you feel the way you do, and realize you need to form friendships more carefully.

I think TA settled some of this (his blog shows signs of this, he had distance from JA now, healthier influences, OTHER things were on his mind). I think he was getting over his guilt (again, he called her a sociopath). He felt miserable because "she was the worst thing in his life", he lost his sense of security and she invaded his privacy to the point of his exhaustion, I think this triggered his evolving position on his guilt/anger in general, especially towards her. I don't think he felt SAFE anymore.

JA wasn't just some random a$$*ole. Things change on a mental level after you have been stalked. Travis didn't seem to even want her as a memory anymore. I don't think having sex with Travis was going to be as easy (people say things all the time when they're feeling down). I'm referring to the comment he made about "taking whatever you want, because you're going to get it anyway." I think he recovered from this, they did have some heavy dilemma before she traveled to him in June. He didn't have a problem turning her down for sex many times from what I've read.

Past that, there are things he's not going to put in a text anymore. But with distance, Travis' supposed infatuation was dead, she knew that. He had more time to ponder "hey, she's a dangerous stalker!", you're less inclined to let that influence back into your life so easily, let alone your bedroom.

Sleeping with someone because they're amoral, yes, a reason to feel disgusted. But sleeping with your stalker, especially after all that time, I'm giving him some credit that whatever we were told about that day, may not be true because it's JA's timeline.. she's a pathological liar! I think she shaped a lot of our media's stance while she lied in court. Her general behavior on stand and her interviews, if taken as is, indicate she got that power because they WERE sleeping together during that time. She was trying to fool us and gain sympathy for her PTSD during this time. So I just don't believe her. What I realized after reading things from other people, is that she always claimed they were dating for a duration a time that was FAR longer than it actually was... I think even if they unfathomably 'slept together' that day, he was forced. And in fear of his life, which shows IMO. THAT is called something else, that is duress! Not sex! That's what I see on his face anyway.

I don't think she had the ability to power play him anymore to the point where sex was an option anymore. I think she knew that too, and that she couldn't hide her excitement over that day, he probably saw it in her eyes, let's face it, she is NOT hard to read. She came in with a weapon, that's duress. I think he did whatever out of fear. Not regret, guilt, because he found her attractive, or whatever.

On a related note: Unfortunately, friends from college, a LOT of these young women, my friends have stories about an ex-boyfriend, who in the midst of their breakup or after BRIEF dating experience, point is... post rejection... were essentially put in a date-rape situation. A) Confrontational discussion about how you could possibly 'reject' them. B) Position yourself physically, namecall, and subject them to fear without necessarily acknowledging that you're scaring them. C) Mentally create an atmosphere so as to justify their anger as the basis for the break-in. Basically putting these young women in a position where they are scared for their lives and out of FEAR, do not call police or for assistance - it is rape, they have no power. It is a control issue and they have some deep resentment for what I guess you could refer to as 'rape-culture.'
 
B-lab...

Thanks for your long and thoughtful reply. :)

I agree with you on some points and disagree about others, but primarily am grateful for your explanation about how TA's childhood might have shaped how he handled/responded to feeling anger towards another. It sounds spot on in general, and IMO helps make sense of something important about Travis that contributed to his vulnerablity to the killer .

I agree that the killer is primarily a sociopathic predator, and that she could destabilize him by simply inserting herself into his life and not budging, which is what she did. But, she did more than that, and she definitely deliberately exploited his vulnerabilities. He needed constant praise, the more over the top the better, and she gave that to him. She knew he was insecure in general and specifically about whether or not he was attractive, desirable, and worthy, and she very much used that as a weapon, repeatedly, stoking his jealousy to keep him off balance. She knew he felt good about himself when he was helpful to others, and her most constant ploy, virtually an every day occurrence, was to ask for his help on everything...loan of car and money, food or dinner out when she claimed being broke, help with computers and PPL or how to handle a situation... the list is endless.

The healthy people Travis had in his life? He had them the entire time he lived in AZ. It is one of the most remarkable things about TA, I think, that he was able to build such a strong, happy, caring, successful community of friends and associates for himself so early in his life, especially given what he had to overcome first.

The only true exception to this was the killer. He didn't have a history of being attracted to destructive women, he had a history of not being able to commit to the very fine women he attracted and who loved him.

He breathed easier for sure once she finally left town and was glad she was gone. His head cleared. He received validation for his suspicions about the killer.
 
Why do you think she said that on the stand? Nurmi didn't ask if Sky told her that, CMJA answered a different question about Sky and just added that on, like she did so many times and the Judge let her get away with it.

a) JA wanted to make it seem that Deanna is as sex-focused as she is, despite how Deanna appeared on the stand.
b) JA wanted to make it seem as though her imaginary knight in armor would have been thrilled to jump to her rescue with an extra set of *advertiser censored*, proof of his undying dedication to her.
c) JA wanted to convey how buddy-buddy her relationship with Skye was and that this was evidence of her (JA's) good will and BFF-edness. JA can't imagine that connectedness would be reflected in anything other than sexual body parts.
 
Tidbit from the texts on BK, about the slashed tires:


TA talked with Samantha shortly after the tires were slashed, and Samantha was 100% convinced the killer had done it. Called the killer a psycho. TA told her that he'd confronted the killer and she had not only denied it but offered to take a lie detector test and pay for it. Sam scoffed at that. TA said he'd actually found someone to do the test.

TA and Lisa also discussed who had slashed the tires, and both said they thought it was the killer. TA wanted to lay in wait at Lisa's house to catch the slasher. She didn't want him to because she was afraid he'd lose it. TA told her that he knew the killer wouldn't come slash the tires that night because he'd told her flat out he suspected her.

Seems like he knew it was the killer but couldn't really wrap his brain around that. When he texted with Skye and others after it happened again a few days later he said he he didn't have any enemies, so maybe an ex- roommate or an ex-girlfriend had done it.

It's mindboggling that LaV read all these texts and "read behind the lines" and went with the proposition that JA was a domestic violence victim and not a stalker, a put-upon innocent young woman and not a psycho, and that TA was an aggressive fault-finder who was abusing the poor thing.
 
The May text....


She well deserved every single word and accusation (all true) he lobbed at her. IMO, though, the sheer volume and intensity of his rage was partially a result of keeping it bottled up for so long, and not all of it was directed at her. He says so himself in the text.

He said he felt destroyed from the inside out, by her, and that she had deliberately tried to destroy him out of hatred, but he also accepts partial responsibility for "allowing" her to do so, attributing it to his own weakness.

He tells her -fine, destroy me, we'll destroy each other, I surrender, let us just be truthful about what we're doing. She even tells HIM, not vice versa, that he should move on (yes, a manipulation. she was toying with him throughout).

My two points about the text- there wasn't enough time between the text and his murder for any gradual or additional evolution of his thoughts or feelings towards her. He had just days left.

Second, when he read the text to Taylor, his BF with whom he had many guy-to-guy conversations about GF's and dumping them etc, Taylor's first response to TA was- whoa, man, that's harsh.

I think I'll wait to see all of TA's texts for May and June before I make up my mind for the (maybe) last time about whether or not TA would have responded to her guilt tripping him about stopping by, or to any other strategy she had to get him to open the door.

And about what did or did not come next. What I'll say now though is that TA absolutely did get intimate with her immediately following the slashing of his tires, even while he was telling others that he thought she was responsible, and even those folks were rightfully telling TA she was a psycho.
 
.....

I don't think JA's cognition is really that sharp, she's more an abstract thinker; she doesn't have empath superpowers. I just think she's wired like a predator. She started young is all. For her, your body language says it all, and that's it, there's nothing else to your psychological makeup. Her existence lies on picking up on these human attributes. She can mimic people, which just means she pays TOO much unhealthy attention to them and fixates. I think the reason she's disturbing is not because she can accurately identify what makes a person tick (or get ticked off), rather because YOU are the center of her universe and she can make you feel unstable by association. She's a psychopath, people can sense this and develop physical reactions (nervous anxiety, exhaustion, anger, etc etc). She causes fight or flight reaction. Sky noticed it, she felt a sense of dread in her life when JA was around. It just hit Travis a little later...

Persons of battered syndrome however, subconsciously believe anger is bad for them. They associate anger of their abuser, and something that could one day 'infect' them, especially when they want to start a family; anger = "improper" and uncontrollable weakness. It's a rather childish perception about our emotional makeup, but the trauma has stunted their association to anger and their coping mechanisms to it (depends on the individual's experiences and time to get a better grip on it not being permanent). So they inadvertently end up tolerating narcissistic and overly 'charming' personas. A lot of these people end up developing severe problems with managing boundaries. Enter... Jodi Arias.

My point is, Travis passed at age 30. I think he HAD developed MUCH clarity in his last year. He had friends, and all these newer experiences, and women in his life that were telling him how it is. He INVITED those people into his life, he had a better chance to aim higher if he wanted to. I think he hid his inner demons WELL. I think he started to see JA's pity party as is. Otherwise, at least to me, it seems he would not have been more brazen. He was insecure, but again, don't think it was just because of CMJA. I don't think he was 'a hopeless case,' (I'm not saying that you said that btw, Hope4More, just devil's advocate here) if you will. ......
Brilliant! Such a great explanation of what it feels like to be around a psychopath narcissist stalker and how easy it is for individuals with a trauma history to get sucked in: there is hard-wired familiarity with being constantly off balance.

It's also heartbreaking that in all of this no one was conveying to TA that therapy might be helpful to TA. There were so many signs that he was not where he wanted to be, he was very pressured, and he was allowing himself to be targeted by someone who was obviously not good for him. With the past he had, he had every reason to need help; the church, at the very least, should have been conveying this to him. Why weren't these bishops lining up a Mormon therapist for him? Why weren't his friends hauling him off to appointments? I just don't get why there was no intervention.
 
Brilliant! Such a great explanation of what it feels like to be around a psychopath narcissist stalker and how easy it is for individuals with a trauma history to get sucked in: there is hard-wired familiarity with being constantly off balance.

It's also heartbreaking that in all of this no one was conveying to TA that therapy might be helpful to TA. There were so many signs that he was not where he wanted to be, he was very pressured, and he was allowing himself to be targeted by someone who was obviously not good for him. With the past he had, he had every reason to need help; the church, at the very least, should have been conveying this to him. Why weren't these bishops lining up a Mormon therapist for him? Why weren't his friends hauling him off to appointments? I just don't get why there was no intervention.


Actually Sky told him a number of times that he should go get therapy, and for Sky- who could be brutal with her advice- she did so with genuine tact and concern. And I know a number of his friends were also extremely concerned about him in spring '08, thinking that he was depressed.

I think he was clinically depressed for at least a few months, in part because of the huge gap between what he felt were his nearly unsurmountable difficulties and what he was actually doing to tackle them. For example, he was seriously struggling to even meet his PPL quotas and was literally begging friends to cover for him by donating their own work towards his quota. Once he'd done that, though, he slid into putting the bulk of his time into starting his blog. Perhaps an eventual "revenue stream," as he claimed, but not one that was going to contribute to his immediate financial bottom line.
 
It's mindboggling that LaV read all these texts and "read behind the lines" and went with the proposition that JA was a domestic violence victim and not a stalker, a put-upon innocent young woman and not a psycho, and that TA was an aggressive fault-finder who was abusing the poor thing.


Right? I'm not in the camp that labelled her a "man-hater" but I do think she has a distorted view of men that made her incapable of seeing the plain truth in front of her. And I've always wondered how different her opinion would have been if Travis had been a woman stalked, terrorized and then slaughtered by the killer.
 
Right? I'm not in the camp that labelled her a "man-hater" but I do think she has a distorted view of men that made her incapable of seeing the plain truth in front of her. And I've always wondered how different her opinion would have been if Travis had been a woman stalked, terrorized and then slaughtered by the killer.

I'm in the camp of willful ignorance and money talks. I don't buy that she truly believes the tripe coming out of her mouth. She needs to pretend she believes it for her agenda.
 
Right? I'm not in the camp that labelled her a "man-hater" but I do think she has a distorted view of men that made her incapable of seeing the plain truth in front of her. And I've always wondered how different her opinion would have been if Travis had been a woman stalked, terrorized and then slaughtered by the killer.

IMO, LaV had to have arrived at her analysis of the TA/JA situation in bad faith. There is no "read behind the lines" that would come up with the picture she painted, and she had access to all this stuff.

What is more, I'll bet LaV didn't even read most of these texts. She just listened to JA, went with the domestic violence agenda, and billed for doing reading she never did.
 
I'm in the camp of willful ignorance and money talks. I don't buy that she truly believes the tripe coming out of her mouth. She needs to pretend she believes it for her agenda.

Remembering LaV stated she didn't have a good retirement income (paraphrased)before she was cut off so I'm sure she wasn't anxious to get off the stand. Her testimony doesn't speak well of her character and my opinion being she doesn't have any character left.
 
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