Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[Just K]

If you are running away from a threat (MP) and while you are asking for help you see the threat approaching (and you are outside exposed) you would run to the next safe haven...only to be ignored at the next two places where you plead for help. Chances are very high that the perceived threat did follow her along her run. It is more likely that she was hysterical and not delusional. There is absolutely no proof of that she was either irrational or delusional. GC may not have let her in. His story has varied and if SG was only allowed as far as his open door and his porch, she would have seen and heard MP's vehicle and knew she needed to keep running, hiding, knocking, pleading and repeating that effort three times before she was never to be seen again. MP is a liar and a convicted criminal and his word is definitely not to be taken as fact.

 

[mcme]

If you are running away from a threat (MP) and while you are asking for help you see the threat approaching (and you are outside exposed) you would run to the next safe haven...only to be ignored at the next two places where you plead for help. Chances are very high that the perceived threat did follow her along her run. It is more likely that she was hysterical and not delusional. There is absolutely no proof of that she was either irrational or delusional. GC may not have let her in. His story has varied and if SG was only allowed as far as his open door and his porch, she would have seen and heard MP's vehicle and knew she needed to keep running, hiding, knocking, pleading and repeating that effort three times before she was never to be seen again. MP is a liar and a convicted criminal and his word is definitely not to be taken as fact.

After SG left JB's, she went to GC's who answered and called the police. SG then Knocked at BB's, but was already back at the street before BB got to her door. BB then also called the police. I never heard that she spoke with BB. Who's the third Person?

 

[Samantha Spade]

I would think that if Shannan was suffering from a delusion that Pak and JB and whoever else was at that "party" that Pak alledgedly told Coletti he wanted to bring her back to, wanted to kill her, then she would have accepted Coletti's help.

I recall reading an interview where Mr. C said something to the effect that shannan fell down his steps and she appeared out of it (not his words) I took that to mean she was impaired in some way possibly by drugs or was drugged.

 

[Samantha Spade]

Even Bundy as smooth and intelligent and cunning as he seemed to be (especially before he got caught-- the last time) had a victim that got away. fortunately for her, someone opened their car door and drove her to safety.

 

[Samantha Spade]

I admit, the delusion theory would seem so much more plausible to me if Shannan didn't wind up dead.
AND if four other young women who worked as call girls weren't found dead a fairly short distance away.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Are you saying that 11 bodies (most of whom have gone missing in the last few years) on a 10 mile stretch of highway could happen due to chance alone? If so, let's conclude there's no serial killer at all- and everyone can just pack up and go home. Wait- that's what SCPD has already done.

Manorville and Gilgo Beach aren't the only undeveloped places in LI- particularly the easternmost 60 miles or so. I seriously doubt there are dead prostitutes, 1/per/mile, in each rural area of the majority of suburban communities.

Relax, study old cases, learn, <modsnip>

1.) Even if there are several serial killers in an area, other people also die from other reasons. Such reasons include murders of passion, accidents, all kinds of diseases and simply old age. We had in Manorville that guy who got rid of his ODed friend for example. Because Manorville, you know, rural, remote, fit for a dumping ground.

2.) The existence of a serial killer can be not concluded from the number of bodies alone, but from similar methods of disposal, signature and forensic evidence. So it is clear, there were at least two SKs in the area dropping bodies, since we have two distinct sets of victims, the dismembered ones and the strangles ones wrapped in burlap. I take it, you know that and your little under the belt kick was just a result of adrenaline.

3.) There are more undeveloped areas, true. But there are only a few without traffic cams, surveillance cams and all of that. Additionally, most psychopathic SKs (and note, not all SKs are psychopathic, so I talk here about a subset) who build clustered dump sites (a subset in a subset) have more parameters to chose their dump site locations than just availability. Why do you think, they like forests, creeks, beaches and combinations of those places so much for their dump sites? Take a look at Bundy, Ridgway, and Corll, just for example.
Now, we know, that serial killers, even when there is more area available, tend to follow those patterns. Which sometimes lead to funny results, as in League City, Texas, for example, where one reused the dumping ground of another one because they ran out of fitting grounds. While, without doubt, Texas has more free space than any other state.

4.) If you argue with math, try at least to get it right. The number you try to reason with is 5 dead prostitutes per square-mile. Not 1/per/mile, which makes mathematically no sense at all. However, also 5/square-mile is a lot, at least till you look at the other parameters, which tell us, there is one cluster of four in that number. So we end up with two groups/square-mile. Which per se is not that much. So there is no need to do any stunts to add them all together, just to make a point, because points made on the base of mathematical errors are not really points.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I don't think the main draw of the Ocean parkway is that it's undeveloped, it's because the road is straight and flat. At night if there are no headlights coming, you are alone. If you do see headlights, the car is still three minutes away. You can assure yourself you've got the time to unload your cargo.

There is another aspect. A lot of SKs have in the past chosen places with homogenous background noises. Whispering forests in the night wind, mumbling creeks or the permanent low surf of the sea. In comparison, the beaches there are as much of a psychopaths dream place as Bundy's Mt. Taylor dump site or Ian Brady's place in the moor.

 

[Peter Brendt]

There is no proof of that.

In fact, there is proof, she was delusional. Her 23 minute call to 911. Since it is technically entirely impossible to sit somewhere 23 minutes with some wannabe killers who don't try to kill the caller, the caller must be the one, who has it wrong there. Break from reality, aka delusion aka psychotic break or drug induced paranoia are possible explanations. But since SG has a history of drug-abuse, but no history of long term psychotic breaks, my bet are still on drugs.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

In fact, there is proof, she was delusional. Her 23 minute call to 911. Since it is technically entirely impossible to sit somewhere 23 minutes with some wannabe killers who don't try to kill the caller, the caller must be the one, who has it wrong there. Break from reality, aka delusion aka psychotic break or drug induced paranoia are possible explanations. But since SG has a history of drug-abuse, but no history of long term psychotic breaks, my bet are still on drugs.

Where did you ever get the idea that Shannan was SITTING anywhere when she made the 911 call?

 

[Peter Brendt]

If you are running away from a threat (MP) and while you are asking for help you see the threat approaching (and you are outside exposed) you would run to the next safe haven...only to be ignored at the next two places where you plead for help. Chances are very high that the perceived threat did follow her along her run. It is more likely that she was hysterical and not delusional. There is absolutely no proof of that she was either irrational or delusional. GC may not have let her in. His story has varied and if SG was only allowed as far as his open door and his porch, she would have seen and heard MP's vehicle and knew she needed to keep running, hiding, knocking, pleading and repeating that effort three times before she was never to be seen again. MP is a liar and a convicted criminal and his word is definitely not to be taken as fact.

Slow it down a little, before it gets too far off the tracks. First thing, to flee to a remote place so my allegedly perceived killer can kill me in all peace appears to me as quite rational ... not! And even if Coletti wouldn't let her in the house, she would have been safer on his porch because Coletti and therefore a potential witness was there. So it would make sense to run to a place where my killer could murder we without curious eyes watching him ... not!
So in two instances, SG chose the irrational solution. The interesting detail is, from what was she fleeing? A rational being fleeing from a thread tries to avoid the threat, tries to reach an area where it is safe from the threat.
Now, MP, convicted criminal and for the sake of some theories buried as the evil per se, also he would be subject to the laws of physics. At least those. Means, he couldn't shrink his SUV, put it in his pocket and follow SG into the marsh. So after MP spoke with Coletti, MP drove off and the SUV was nowhere to be seen anymore. Assuming, it wasn't in MP's pant pockets, it was gone. So, if MP was the threat to begin with, the threat was gone. Still SG ran on. That is evidence enough, she wasn't fleeing from MP. But since there was nobody else around at this time, the only things, she could have fled from where the things in her head.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Even Bundy as smooth and intelligent and cunning as he seemed to be (especially before he got caught-- the last time) had a victim that got away. fortunately for her, someone opened their car door and drove her to safety.

Carol DaRonche. Unfortunately, Bundy got another girl the same night only some miles down the road in the next town.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I admit, the delusion theory would seem so much more plausible to me if Shannan didn't wind up dead.
AND if four other young women who worked as call girls weren't found dead a fairly short distance away.

The perceptioin of "vicinity" is overestimated in such cases. Bundy killed in WA, CO, UT, so three states, maybe more. Nobody can say, all his victims were in the "vicinity" of each other. Still nobody would doubt, there was a serial killer around. Now, while Bundy was active, in those three states life went on. Other people died, who had nothing to do with Bundy. Other SKs killed, crossing accidentally his path. Again other people died from cardiac arrests, pneumonia and whatever. I bet, some people also died from stupid things, they did under the influence of drugs. Some of them maybe pretty near to places, where Bundy picked victims. Evergreen State College and the Tavern were not exactly drug-free places back in the days.
Bottom line, physical vicinity is one of many technical details, not more, not less. A lot of really stupid ideas got derived from the idea of "vicinity". Hillside Stranglers, what are the odds, two serial killers drop their bodies in the vicinity to each other? People concluded, the chance were zero. And yes, it was rather, it was unlikely ONLY two ... because in fact, there were the Hillside Stranglers (2) plus Alcala (1) plus the whole freaking Manson family using those foothills. What is that? 8?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Where did you ever get the idea that Shannan was SITTING anywhere when she made the 911 call?

"sitting" as in being there ( locked in the bathroom). I would like to add, that, IMO, she didn't make handstands, tumbled or was hovering in the air.

 

[Samantha Spade]

PB,
I was recently reading about another sk (I believe one who I haven't seen you mention, but I haven't read all of your posts) who also was disposing his victim extremely close to another sk's spot. So, I must admit, as crazy as it sounds to a lot of us, it happens. A lot!

 

[Mountain_Kat]

"sitting" as in being there ( locked in the bathroom). I would like to add, that, IMO, she didn't make handstands, tumbled or was hovering in the air.

You're saying that she was locked in the bathroom when she made the 911 call?! I don't know where you are getting this stuff from, Peter. Am I not understanding you correctly?

 

[Samantha Spade]

I wish we could just hear those 911 tapes, or have some retired fbi now PI who the family members and we trust listen to them in their entirety and ensure us that the scpd theory seems closer to the truth in his or her expert opinion. To me Trust and a reputation of professionalism and integrity is the key factor. note: this may describe the scpd officials involved, i dont know those involved, but a lot of "rumors" seem to imply otherwise, so having a trusted outside investigator might help.

In my opinion lawyers dont count (in the context of my post).

 

[Peter Brendt]

PB,
I was recently reading about another sk (I believe one who I haven't seen you mention, but I haven't read all of your posts) who also was disposing his victim extremely close to another sk's spot. So, I must admit, as crazy as it sounds to a lot of us, it happens. A lot!

Most of the time, I limit my examples to cases, I have some hope, people remember them. I mean, who the hell remembers the 3X murders, Harrison Graham or William "Freight Train" Guatney? I mean, people today pose as SK experts, who haven't even an idea who was Edmund Kemper III only because he was never mentioned by his name in a TV show.
Want to see a really crazy place? Look around the I-45 in Texas. Shore, Bell, Toole, Lucas, another half a dozen, they didn't even catch, Shuflin, Gribble, 120 cases more still open. All basically I-45 in the Houston and over to League City. Now, does Lake Sam Houston count as near to the interstate? If so, Corll parked 17 near to Shore's 6 and Corll's second dump site with 16 is near to some body an as of yet unidentified SK used to dispose of four. They would be so happy down there, to have only two or three SKs using up space and air.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Peter, could you please address my question?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter, could you please address my question?

I did! And if I expand that to the extended meanings of the word "sitting", I will be probably mod-snipped anyway. "Sitting" doesn't mean in all contexts actually sitting on something, it can in an extended sense mean being stuck in a place (for example locked in a bathroom).

 

[twocuriouscats]

Slow it down a little, before it gets too far off the tracks. First thing, to flee to a remote place so my allegedly perceived killer can kill me in all peace appears to me as quite rational ... not! And even if Coletti wouldn't let her in the house, she would have been safer on his porch because Coletti and therefore a potential witness was there. So it would make sense to run to a place where my killer could murder we without curious eyes watching him ... not!
So in two instances, SG chose the irrational solution. The interesting detail is, from what was she fleeing? A rational being fleeing from a thread tries to avoid the threat, tries to reach an area where it is safe from the threat.
Now, MP, convicted criminal and for the sake of some theories buried as the evil per se, also he would be subject to the laws of physics. At least those. Means, he couldn't shrink his SUV, put it in his pocket and follow SG into the marsh. So after MP spoke with Coletti, MP drove off and the SUV was nowhere to be seen anymore. Assuming, it wasn't in MP's pant pockets, it was gone. So, if MP was the threat to begin with, the threat was gone. Still SG ran on. That is evidence enough, she wasn't fleeing from MP. But since there was nobody else around at this time, the only things, she could have fled from where the things in her head.

Your post made me look at this in a different way...I'm wondering...why would MP leave his money-maker?