Shannan Gilbert Found, death declared an accident. #2

[Peter Brendt]

This is the bone that allows a ME to know if someone was strangled or not. This is the bone the ME said was missing. No mention of any othder missing bones. COINCIDENCE?

There was also a finger bone missing. But then, I wouldn't call it coincidence, rather anatomy 101 ... the hyoid bone is not directly connected to other bones, it hangs only on cartilage, which, in the process of decomposition is gone at some point. Small bones are often carried away by wildlife. In fact, in case of skeletal remains that are found unprotected (as in not in sacks, bags, foil, whatever holds bone together and decomposes slower), it is not that unusual that the hyoid is missing.

 

[Peter Brendt]

In the Howard Beach incident at least 3 kids were convicted of killing Michael Griffith by chasing him on to the highway and being struck with a car. There was a serious legal question if the law covered such a situation. The prosecutors can get very imaginative when they need to. I remember they hunted down a Massachusetts case for precedent.

What made matters even worse is the main character in the case, Jon Lester was no where near Griffith when he ran on to the parkway. He was beating up Sandiford about 7 or 8 blocks. He beat up Sandiford so bad that when that victim went to the hospital he refused medical treatment and went home.

Did MP or any other person cause SG to run off into harm's way and cause her death? Or did someone kill her with intent to kill her?

It has been pretty well established she was screaming someone was trying to kill her. She was right at least to the extent she died.

She spent 23 minutes on a cell phone with 911. According to Det.Stephan, who said he heard the tape, SG gave no indication her life was in danger.

Wake up folks. There is more than enough information here to suspect a cover-up - 'suspect' being the operative word.

Some of you folks should have been homicide detectives - the bosses would love you. You could make a guy shot 12 x in the head a suicide and keep the numbers down.

Translated: You have no shred of evidence, no reasonable suspect but you demand we say, it was murder ... or you call us the bosses *advertiser censored**kisser.
The only thought of worth in this is the question of prosecution. Because if SG was in a drug induced paranoia and the drugs on the table were JB's stash, or, just such a thought, that mysterious 15 minute trip was to JB's local supplier, then there is a chance to hold him responsible for that part of it. Kind of negligent manslaughter maybe?

 

[mcme]

Mcme,
I read the letter. And in all of my years knowing and living with educated, experienced and extremely professional police officers, would I EVER imagine them submitting a letter like that to the media ( ESPECIALLY an active/open investigation) retired or not. that is why I find it fishy.

I'm friends with a few myself, and most would suck it up and keep their mouth shut. Some won't take a jab like JR gave and be quiet.
There's nothing "fishy" about this letter. It looks like this Det. reads what is said about he and his colleagues and took a little offence. He didn't come out and try to change anyone's opinion by insisting this or that is what happened. He said JR is wrong and that they were and are giving it their all and shared what he could on some of the things are are being most wildly speculated on.
To me it seems that MG and others do not like the results of the investigation so far and will not be satisfied until something shows what they want to believe. JR appears to have no qualms about getting the advertisement that comes with being involved.
Here's a link to the letter so it can be read again, and it's content looked at.
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

 

[Peter Brendt]

I'm friends with a few myself, and most would suck it up and keep their mouth shut. Some won't take a jab like JR gave and be quiet.
There's nothing "fishy" about this letter. It looks like this Det. reads what is said about he and his colleagues and took a little offence. He didn't come out and try to change anyone's opinion by insisting this or that is what happened. He said JR is wrong and that they were and are giving it there all and shared what he could on some of the things are are being most wildly speculated on.
To me it seems that MG and others do not like the results of the investigation so far and will not be satisfied until something shows what they want to believe. JR appears to have no qualms about getting the advertisement that comes with being involved.
Here's a link to the letter so it can be read again, and it's content looked at.
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

Nut JR claims to have read a transcript (in the 48 Hours) and that sounded quite different.

 

[fred&edna]

I'm friends with a few myself, and most would suck it up and keep their mouth shut. Some won't take a jab like JR gave and be quiet.
There's nothing "fishy" about this letter. It looks like this Det. reads what is said about he and his colleagues and took a little offence. He didn't come out and try to change anyone's opinion by insisting this or that is what happened. He said JR is wrong and that they were and are giving it there all and shared what he could on some of the things are are being most wildly speculated on.
To me it seems that MG and others do not like the results of the investigation so far and will not be satisfied until something shows what they want to believe. JR appears to have no qualms about getting the advertisement that comes with being involved.
Here's a link to the letter so it can be read again, and it's content looked at.
http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

The one thing omitted from his interpretation is the reason why Shannan called 911. Undoubtedly, her reason for calling was obtained by the operator right away (i.e. "911 What's your emergency?") but this 17-yr veteran detective chose to leave out this fundamental bit of information. This interpretation is just too self-serving to be of use.

 

[WINDSOR]

We are all beating ourselves up over the same thing again

Proof and evidence.

If there was evidence of a crime and a criminal, we could expect that LE would have made an arrest.

If there was evidence that no crime took place, we could expect that LE would declare the case closed.

Neither has happened. Therefore the case is still an open investigation. New evidence may be discovered which will point one way or the other.

Those who believe that SG died of natural causes based on the evidence may be correct, as well those who believe she died as a result of foul play may be correct. None of us have any idea what evidence may come up later.

Rather than arguing over and over regarding what we do know and who is right or wrong in our theories, should we not focus on what we do not know and strive to learn those things?

I need quite a bit of evidence to change from my point of view, so do those who take a point of view opposite me.

To get things moving along I promise to focus on theories, ideas, evidence, concepts regarding the death of SG. I will not try to convince those who disagree with me the errors of their ways. If we all spend less time on bickering and snipping (yes I am guilty) then maybe we all can do some good.

let us give it a try.

MOO

 

[PreciousDust]

And I'm sorry but there is absolutely no evidence as you put it "a guy shot 12 x in the head." You have no evidence period of any foul play. Even if foul play was her cause of death there is no evidence to point to who did it. I certainly would not want someone to play Judge, Jury and Executioner based upon their opinion alone. If SG was murdered she deserves Justice and to have her killer caught. If she wasn't murdered and someone is lynched because of this stupid mob mentality we have in America that is a greater injustice in my opinion.

I'm constantly amazed by the conclusions people reach from what they read. Hawkshaw did not say he has any evidence of foul play. Hawkshaw did not say there was any evidence to point to who did it. Hawkshaw didn't suggest that anyone should play judge, jury, or executioner based on opinion. The closing soapbox comment about a mob mentality in America is particularly pointless in light of what Hawkshaw said (where, in fact, he implies the opposite, i.e. that the herd mentality is on the side of those who accept whatever explanations law enforcement provides).

 

[mcme]

The one thing omitted from his interpretation is the reason why Shannan called 911. Undoubtedly, her reason for calling was obtained by the operator right away (i.e. "911 What's your emergency?") but this 17-yr veteran detective chose to leave out this fundamental bit of information. This interpretation is just too self-serving to be of use.

I don't feel it was intentionally omitted. Without him stating it, SG called because she felt some guys were trying to get her, asked why or how or what are they were doing, she said they're trying to kill me.
As to the self serving view of it, what does it matter to a retired Det. who worked on the case what was said at all. He was only investigating it. It wouldn't matter to him if she was repeating dirty limericks or screaming bloody murder. All he cared about and responded to was JR attacking he and his fellow Det.s when in his knowledgeable opinion JR didn't know what he was talking about. It's very possible that JR isn't a complete dummy and even though he'd read a transcript, he said those things in hopes of being offered to actually hear it for himself, or even get a copy of it.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I'm constantly amazed by the conclusions people reach from what they read. Hawkshaw did not say he has any evidence of foul play. Hawkshaw did not say there was any evidence to point to who did it. Hawkshaw didn't suggest that anyone should play judge, jury, or executioner based on opinion. The closing soapbox comment about a mob mentality in America is particularly pointless in light of what Hawkshaw said (where, in fact, he implies the opposite, i.e. that the herd mentality is on the side of those who accept whatever explanations law enforcement provides).

Fine, now you made those who think, she wasn't murdered from bosses rear kissers to bovines. Which doesn't change thing:

1.) SG was found in the marsh

2.) None of the persons directly involved or discussed here had a sufficient time window to go in after her and kill her.

3.) A not directly involved and later injected person, CPH, has a leg prosthesis and no information about SG's location at the time, so it is virtually impossible, that he followed her and killed her.

4.) The only person, who had the time was the officer who arrived a little later, because as of yet, we know only, he looked around ... not where exactly. But of course, he had no notice and also no information about SGs exact location

So, nobody could have reached her at this point. Which means, there was no possible murderer. Unfortunately, LE has the very same problem. And since LE said this, the argument appears now to be, this has, despite all facts, to be wrong because LE said it.

 

[ktgirl]

This is the bone that allows a ME to know if someone was strangled or not. This is the bone the ME said was missing. No mention of any othder missing bones. COINCIDENCE?

Exactly what I was thinking. How convenient.

 

[Samantha Spade]

I don't feel it was intentionally omitted. Without him stating it, SG called because she felt some guys were trying to get her, asked why or how or what are they were doing, she said they're trying to kill me.
As to the self serving view of it, what does it matter to a retired Det. who worked on the case what was said at all. He was only investigating it. It wouldn't matter to him if she was repeating dirty limericks or screaming bloody murder. All he cared about and responded to was JR attacking he and his fellow Det.s when in his knowledgeable opinion JR didn't know what he was talking about.



It's very possible that JR isn't a complete dummy and even though he'd read a transcript, he said those things in hopes of being offered to actually hear it for himself, or even get a copy of it.

MCME,
That is what I am thinking. imho JR's statement was a calculated manipulative tactic to hit some nerves and get LE talking in defense. Lawyers love more info and statements to work with.
I think JR's statements were extremely inappropriate and certainly do not condone them.
BUT I can empathize with a mother's frustration in getting answers as to why it took so long for investigators to question Coletti and Brewer on Shannan's disappearance.

As for my sounds fishy comment, I should have added that I wasnt only referring to something nefarious, but good intentions too. maybe his superiors felt it was necessary in order to prevent that mass mob lynching that seemed to be brewing. Or to make an unnamed poi think he is in the clear. I just dont know.

 

[OnTheCase27]

I'm constantly amazed by the conclusions people reach from what they read. Hawkshaw did not say he has any evidence of foul play. Hawkshaw did not say there was any evidence to point to who did it. Hawkshaw didn't suggest that anyone should play judge, jury, or executioner based on opinion. The closing soapbox comment about a mob mentality in America is particularly pointless in light of what Hawkshaw said (where, in fact, he implies the opposite, i.e. that the herd mentality is on the side of those who accept whatever explanations law enforcement provides).

Your right he did not say those things but he certainly did infer them. And since he insisted on using metaphors instead of real meaning then I will translate as best as I can even if you disagree with me. Take a look at this quote.

"Wake up folks. There is more than enough information here to suspect a cover-up - 'suspect' being the operative word.

Some of you folks should have been homicide detectives - the bosses would love you. You could make a guy shot 12 x in the head a suicide and keep the numbers down."

To state that people here could make a guy look like a suicide when he was shot in the head 12 times is inferring that we are trying to make SG's death look like an a accident when she was clearly a victim of a homicide. There is no other way to look at that statement. Please if you have another option for me I am all ears.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Exactly what I was thinking. How convenient.

Okay, so the explanation for the next one ... the hyoid, if smashed, indicates strangulation. However, the hyoid is also only connected by cartilage not directly to other bones. Which, in case of skeletal remains, makes it one of the first bones to go missing. Second in line are finger bones (including toes). According to the ME a finger bone is also missing.
The interesting thing is, that the small bones of the inner ear are not reported missing. Normally, during decomposition, they fall inside the skull and remain there till they fall apart too. So those bones inside the skull are a good indicator, the body wasn't moved since the time, the decomposition in the inner ear was progressed enough to let them fall out of place. Which, given the thickness of tissue in both areas, indicate, the skull wasn't moved forceful since a time long before the hyoid was even loosened from the thicker cartilage hoilding it.

Bottom line: If you have only skeletal remains, the hyoid is often missing. While the better protected inner ear bones indicate, the skull hasn't been moved after the decomposition was progressed enough to get the hyoid out without leaving clear tool marks. So ... no black men sneaking around in the marsh waiting every day for the time to steal the hyoid bone to cover up imaginary crimes.

 

[WINDSOR]

Fine, now you made those who think, she wasn't murdered from bosses rear kissers to bovines. Which doesn't change thing:

1.) SG was found in the marsh

2.) None of the persons directly involved or discussed here had a sufficient time window to go in after her and kill her.

3.) A not directly involved and later injected person, CPH, has a leg prosthesis and no information about SG's location at the time, so it is virtually impossible, that he followed her and killed her.

4.) The only person, who had the time was the officer who arrived a little later, because as of yet, we know only, he looked around ... not where exactly. But of course, he had no notice and also no information about SGs exact location

So, nobody could have reached her at this point. Which means, there was no possible murderer. Unfortunately, LE has the very same problem. And since LE said this, the argument appears now to be, this has, despite all facts, to be wrong because LE said it.

Peter, I am a liitle confused about #2 where you state "none of the persons directly involved or discussed here had a sufficient time window to go in after her and kill her"

Let us take my POI, MP. If he saw SG wandering around the marsh, he would have to get out his vehicle, go into the marsh chase SG down while on foot, injure SG mortally, return to his vehicle, then leave before LE arrived. I agree 100% with you that there would not be enough time for that to happen.

If MP caught up to SG on Anchor Way, pulled her into his car, and drove out of Oak Beach, then he turns right onto Moses Parkway. Do you think he had enough time to do this before LE arrived.

I know there is no proof that this is what happened, but would there have been enough time for this to happen? I think so. What is your opinion.

I understand nobody saw SG get into MP's vehicle and nobody saw SG enter or walk in the marsh.

MOO

 

[mcme]

Peter, I am a liitle confused about #2 where you state "none of the persons directly involved or discussed here had a sufficient time window to go in after her and kill her"

Let us take my POI, MP. If he saw SG wandering around the marsh, he would have to get out his vehicle, go into the marsh chase SG down while on foot, injure SG mortally, return to his vehicle, then leave before LE arrived. I agree 100% with you that there would not be enough time for that to happen.

If MP caught up to SG on Anchor Way, pulled her into his car, and drove out of Oak Beach, then he turns right onto Moses Parkway. Do you think he had enough time to do this before LE arrived.

I know there is no proof that this is what happened, but would there have been enough time for this to happen? I think so. What is your opinion.

I understand nobody saw SG get into MP's vehicle and nobody saw SG enter or walk in the marsh.

MOO

Windsor, in my mind, the only way GC doesn't see MP leave is if as MP said, he didn't see a street past the mailboxes and left the gate to find SG as she walked down Oak Beach road. If he'd gone down Anchor way and got SG, it would have to of been after BB saw her, and GC would have been at the gate waiting for the police by then.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter, I am a liitle confused about #2 where you state "none of the persons directly involved or discussed here had a sufficient time window to go in after her and kill her"

Let us take my POI, MP. If he saw SG wandering around the marsh, he would have to get out his vehicle, go into the marsh chase SG down while on foot, injure SG mortally, return to his vehicle, then leave before LE arrived. I agree 100% with you that there would not be enough time for that to happen.

If MP caught up to SG on Anchor Way, pulled her into his car, and drove out of Oak Beach, then he turns right onto Moses Parkway. Do you think he had enough time to do this before LE arrived.

I know there is no proof that this is what happened, but would there have been enough time for this to happen? I think so. What is your opinion.

I understand nobody saw SG get into MP's vehicle and nobody saw SG enter or walk in the marsh.

MOO

If MP would have pulled SG into the SUV on Anchor way ...

... he would have to pass CG at the entrance
... he would have killed her outside OB, with the knowledge police was going there which made OB and the marsh next to it a pretty stupid dumping ground
... the whole discussion is irrelevant because CG saw SG running and had a talk of some minutes with MP afterwards. Means, MP was still at CG's place when SG had reached the marsh.

So ... no sufficient time window for MP to snatch her anyway in OB. And while I can see reasons, he would put her in the car if he would have got the chance, I see no motive for him to kill her.

 

[WINDSOR]

Windsor, in my mind, the only way GC doesn't see MP leave is if as MP said, he didn't see a street past the mailboxes and left the gate to find SG as she walked down Oak Beach road. If he'd gone down Anchor way and got SG, it would have to of been after BB saw her, and GC would have been at the gate waiting for the police by then.

I may be mistaken and I have never been to Oak Beach, but when I am looking at the Google satellite map, The Fairway turns into Anchor Way, which comes into a relatively large T-intersection. To the left is the entrance-exit to Oak Beach, to the right Anchor Way continues south.


You are implying if MP turned right onto Anchor Way, got SG into his vehicle after BB's house, he could not turn around fast enough and exit the gate before GC would have reached the gate on foot from his house. GC is a 75 year old man, so his walking speed would be age appropriate.

I have a hunch that MP made it out of Oak Beach before GC got to the Gate house to let LE in.

Anybody know what time GC arrived at the gate house? LE supposedly arrived at 6:07AM.

MP was speaking to GC about 6:30, 8 minutes after GC called 911. MP says he left Oak Beach at around 6:00AM. He had about 20 to 30 minutes to get SG, and leave Oak Beach. If MP left at 5:50 AM, there is a good chance GC would not have seen MP leave.

If MP left Oak Beach right after speaking to GC, that was about 5:35 AM or 5:40 AM. Not 6:00AM like MP stated.

I think it is quite possible MP left with SG, and GC did not see him leave.

these times were provided by The Foreigner at Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



MOO

 

[Redbird]

MP left without GC seeing him, whether SG was in the car with him or not.

 

[Just K]

MP left without GC seeing him, whether SG was in the car with him or not.

Apparently so...

 

[mcme]

I may be mistaken and I have never been to Oak Beach, but when I am looking at the Google satellite map, The Fairway turns into Anchor Way, which comes into a relatively large T-intersection. To the left is the entrance-exit to Oak Beach, to the right Anchor Way continues south.


You are implying if MP turned right onto Anchor Way, got SG into his vehicle after BB's house, he could not turn around fast enough and exit the gate before GC would have reached the gate on foot from his house. GC is a 75 year old man, so his walking speed would be age appropriate.

I have a hunch that MP made it out of Oak Beach before GC got to the Gate house to let LE in.

Anybody know what time GC arrived at the gate house? LE supposedly arrived at 6:07AM.

MP was speaking to GC about 6:30, 8 minutes after GC called 911. MP says he left Oak Beach at around 6:00AM. He had about 20 to 30 minutes to get SG, and leave Oak Beach. If MP left at 5:50 AM, there is a good chance GC would not have seen MP leave.

If MP left Oak Beach right after speaking to GC, that was about 5:35 AM or 5:40 AM. Not 6:00AM like MP stated.

I think it is quite possible MP left with SG, and GC did not see him leave.

these times were provided by The Foreigner at Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



MOO

Windsor. I'm not saying past BB's house, but certainly after she saw her. The police arrived 10 minutes after BB's 911 call. Her call was 25+/- minutes after GC's. That leaves GC plenty of time to get to the gate before BB's call. So MP couldn't have gotten SG after she was seen by BB and left without being seen by GC. Oak Beach is much larger than just behind the gate. MP may have been doing his searching outside the gate, towards the parking lot west end area. Certainly, once he left the gate, which I suspect was immediately, he had no way to get back in. He may have sat in the parking lot for a while hoping SG would call back, and when he saw the police had come, he left. SG spent a lot of time between leaving GC's and being seen by BB. Way more time than it would take to just walk from one to the other. She may have not known the way out wandered a few streets, and started panicking, making whatever she was feeling worse. It is dark there at that time of day. And at that time of year, there's way fewer people staying.