Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

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Tanzanite said:
RickshawFan mentioned hypothermia upthread, and the confusion it causes. I experienced this years ago while surfing. I'm cautious by nature, physically strong and fit, and I was suited and booted in winter layers for cold water, but I'd stayed out just a bit too long without realising how tired and cold I was getting.

I lay down on my board and felt very sleepy. It was getting dark, the sea was getting choppy and I was vaguely aware that I should get back to shore, but I was at the stage of not caring and just wanted to go to sleep. My partner spotted what was happening and was able to tow me in. I couldn't move my arms or legs by this point, and I felt exhausted and confused.

Lesson learned and I was incredibly lucky. I've thought about that experience, reading about the possibility of Esther sleeping out in a bivvy bag in such low temperatures, maybe in damp clothes, feeling like that. Hypothermia would be a real risk, and so dangerous if you're alone. Poor Esther.
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Hypothermia leads to people stripping off their clothing because they feel hot. There's no trace of her or any of her equipment or clothing.
 
otto said:
They iced over within days of her disappearance so we have to wait for Spring for them to be searched.
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OK, if that's the case and it's thick ice maybe but I'd have thought a hole could be drilled and a drone put down there without too much difficulty if the will was there? Or maybe I've been watching too many David Attenborough in the Arctic programs ;)
 
Puzzles said:
We've had no recent update from MSM, DC, or LBT Global.
Source - The Chronicle. Dec. 16: French police captain Jean Marc Bordinaro confirmed: “French officers probing Esther disappearance will meet with detectives from Huesca in Spain later this week."

The above statement was published two weeks ago, yet nothing about the proposed meeting has been reported, to my knowledge.

Is it not possible that ED was missing, and has now been found? That could explain why there's been no recent, public update.
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I think the absence of any update is more likely an indicator that she hasn't been found. Do you have a theory that they might suppress such news?
 
Grouse said:
OK, if that's the case and it's thick ice maybe but I'd have thought a hole could be drilled and a drone put down there without too much difficulty if the will was there? Or maybe I've been watching too many David Attenborough in the Arctic programs ;)
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Looks like most underwater drones are tethered. Ice presents problems for drones as well because it does not have a smooth surface under the water.

In any case, although it would be nice that French SAR go above and beyond to search the lake, it's much easier for all to wait until there is a covid vaccine and to search after the ice has melted.

Best underwater drones 2020: the 13 best ROVs this year
 
Tanzanite said:
RickshawFan mentioned hypothermia upthread, and the confusion it causes. I experienced this years ago while surfing. I'm cautious by nature, physically strong and fit, and I was suited and booted in winter layers for cold water, but I'd stayed out just a bit too long without realising how tired and cold I was getting.

I lay down on my board and felt very sleepy. It was getting dark, the sea was getting choppy and I was vaguely aware that I should get back to shore, but I was at the stage of not caring and just wanted to go to sleep. My partner spotted what was happening and was able to tow me in. I couldn't move my arms or legs by this point, and I felt exhausted and confused.

Lesson learned and I was incredibly lucky. I've thought about that experience, reading about the possibility of Esther sleeping out in a bivvy bag in such low temperatures, maybe in damp clothes, feeling like that. Hypothermia would be a real risk, and so dangerous if you're alone. Poor Esther.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's a bit scary, really glad your partner spotted it and saved you!

I just think if something like this had happened with Esther, if she'd succumbed to hypothermia while camping in a bivvy bag/tent, she wouldn't be down some crevice out of sight she would have been found by SAR now.
 
Puzzles said:
We've had no recent update from MSM, DC, or LBT Global.
Source - The Chronicle. Dec. 16: French police captain Jean Marc Bordinaro confirmed: “French officers probing Esther disappearance will meet with detectives from Huesca in Spain later this week."

The above statement was published two weeks ago, yet nothing about the proposed meeting has been reported, to my knowledge.

Is it not possible that ED was missing, and has now been found? That could explain why there's been no recent, public update.
Click to expand...

Good point, @Puzzles. I have also been wondering about the radio silence. That and ED's Mom's incessant belief that her daughter was "kidnapped". What if they've received a ransome note and are managing this quietly? Or as you say, what if Esther has been found (alive or not) and there are delicate circumsances to manage?

It was when I got the impression that Esther's family is wealthy from the 11/22 BBC article that the notion of a kidnapping on 11/22-11/24 struck me. Of course that would have happened in civilization like if ED returned to her van "Homer" on 11/22-24...
 
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Grouse said:
Wow, that's a bit scary, really glad your partner spotted it and saved you!

I just think if something like this had happened with Esther, if she'd succumbed to hypothermia while camping in a bivvy bag/tent, she wouldn't be down some crevice out of sight she would have been found by SAR now.
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Unless... like the Susan McLean case we've referenced before, and as someone today (?) opined here, do we know if SARS searched off / far off-piste like in the forests in the valley beyond the Refuge de V?
 
Grouse said:
She described herself as the snail on this tour. That was because she carried a large backpack and as she stated she carried everything she needed for survival. We know she had lightweight high-end gear that took up less space, so given the large pack size (that was cause for comment by the skier) I'm sure she had capacity in there for provisions. I've seen many photos of her and Dan cooking up hot meals in refuges and I'm sure she will have had a stove and been planning to cook a hot meal and drink at the next refuge.
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Snipped for focus

The thing is, Grouse, those were things she theoretically had, and we have no idea what anyone Might mean by "everything s/he needed for survival". I'll refer you to the Kate Matrosova case: she also thought that way, and walked her way into catastrophe.

We don't know if ED had her usual equipment with her. It was a 58 L pack. Max. It looks much larger than that on a body (especially a woman), because it has a HUGE empty scoop between the back and the bag, theoretically to keep your back cool (unfortunately, it also makes women tip backwards, which may also be a factor here). Bottom line: this is an average-size overnight pack that is inclined to look big; in actual fact, to me, when ED is wearing it, it doesn't look like a big pack.

So, whoever she met on the trail is very likely to have mis-guessed the actual size of the pack. It would be NORMAL for it to be guessed wrong.

It is not a winter pack, a mountaineering pack, or a pack that will take a lot of weight. It will max out at about 25-28 lbs, but I don't believe ED is carrying even that much weight, including water.

If you'd like, I can write a list of what would typically go in an overnight pack of that size and weight, with the sleeping bag she has, and in winter. I likely would have used a heavier 65L pack for that, but a lightish-weight 58L would probably be enough.

The standard rule of thumb for food per day (we're talking lightweight and packable stuff like Ramen and dried fruit and vedgies, pudding powder, dried milk, maybe some cheese, i.e. nothing fresh because it's heavy) is 2lbs per person per day, plus a couple of extra meals in case you get hung up. That's 6 lbs of food she should have had to keep body and soul together, plus the extra. She would normally by carrying 2L of water; that would be 4lbs plus the slightly-under 1lb weight of the bottle.

The problem with a stove—I know this full well being a tea guzzler and being on the trail for 6 months—fuel is relatively expensive. On a one-night or two-night trip, she could have decided to leave it behind and take cold food. This could mean sandwiches, leftovers, Gorp, overnight oats. On the other hand, if she did the math, she'd likely figure out that it's cheaper—and a whole lot safer in November—to buy the fuel, boil water for drinks and food (e.g. Uncle Ben's rice with veggie bits, which just requires you pour boiling water on it). You can even pour boiling water into a water bottle and hug it to you to stay warm. I'd have taken 1 average-size can and 1 small of fuel on a trip like this, just to guarantee warmth. If I got down to the small can at that time of year, I'd be hustling like crazy to get done with my trip.

She did have high-end light gear, but unlikely suitable for November; she had bought it for summertime Alps on busy trails. I'm freezing just looking at her mattress, for instance: she'd have needed a stuffed mattress in the Refuge to make it predictably safe through the night.

And it's very possible she didn't take the tent, since she was proud of herself for bivouac-ing on her previous trip.

After I saw the weather report, with temperatures substantially below freezing those nights she planned on being out, combined with shortage of funds, flimsy boots, her bivouac photo, and the yoga tights, I have became very concerned about whether this trip could be made safely at all.
This was not my impression at the start.
And she's alone out there.
The lovely bloggers that I've cited above? They are the best-practice indicators of what this trip should look like, and that's in August. Their photos on multiple trips, as well as their specifications for skill level and season, will be very helpful if folks need visuals. You won't need the French to understand what I'm saying.
 
In the days after
RedHaus said:
Good point, @Puzzles. I have also been wondering about the radio silence. That and ED's Mom's incessant belief that her daughter was "kidnapped". What if they've received a ransome note and are managing this quietly? Or as you say, what if Esther has been found (alive or not) and there are delicate circumsances to manage?

It was when I got the impression that Esther's family is wealthy from the 11/22 BBC article that the notion of a kidnapping on 11/22-11/24 struck me. Of course that would have happened in civilization like if ED returned to her van "Homer" on 11/22-24...
Click to expand...

Kidnapping for ransom on a Pyrenees mountain seems remote. Is her family uber wealthy where family members need security? If not, then kidnapping for ransom seems odd for a woman living on chia seeds and quinoa in a van for 6 years.

I am sure that family is hoping that she made it down the mountain and the worst case scenario is that she met the wrong stranger but is still alive.

When a missing person is announced to the world and weeks later there is no sign of life, as is the case here, and suddenly she is found - that is released regardless of kidnapper demands.
 
My favorite French blogger fellas did the loop hike in one day (snort!), including the Pic (snort!).
If I were doing the loop (I would certainly skip the Pic--not my thing, and I'd definitely not attempt it alone, and the views are plenty good enough from the Port), I'd want to do it in 2 days, starting at the Hospice, leaving at maybe 9 and checking out the Port. Leisurely lunch. The Refuge would have been nicely half way, and there's a water source. Arrival around 3 'cos I dawdle. In time for tea.
On arrival, go fetch water and filter 6 liters (or tap). Prolly a not-so-mushy cake (a gal's gotta live) 'cos I could still keep my food at <2lbs for the day.
I'd have "Thanksgiving Dinner" for dinner, a cup of soup made from dried vegetables and herbs from the co-op to get me hydrated. Then, a Ziploc freezer bag with 1 1/2 servings of powdered turkey gravy, dried cranberries, instant mashed potato, frozen peas. Did you calculate the weight? Cost maybe $2. Prolly 8-9 oz including the Ziploc. Pour boiling water on it, right in the bag. Let it set up while you chat. Done. Eat, right out of the bag. No dishes. 1/4 box of powdered chocolate pudding in another Ziploc along with correct amount of powdered milk. Pour cold water on top. Just a spoon; knife and fork stay home. Voilà. Just two Ziplocs to pack out for dinner.
Hot chocolate and several cups of water.
By then it's 8pm. Almost everyone will be half asleep.
Breakfast: 1 1/2 servings hot instant cereal like oats with nuts.
I'd have a nice lot of downhill on the 2nd day and plenty of time for 3 cups of coffee before I staggered down the trail.
I'd be using a 0 degree F bag in summer (about like the French bloggers); that's down to -18C (about where the Refuge was in November). Thick groundcloth. Insulated mattress.

Then there'd be all the other stuff like clothes in my pack. Everything goes in it; almost nothing goes on the outside. 50 liters.

Hope that gives you some idea about how a person would plan a trip like this... Light, plenty of the right kind of food, a treat or two, lots of liquid.

However, almost none of this plan could work for ED. ED couldn't start in France/the Hospice because of the lockdown. No matter how she did the loop—1 night or 2—this would have wedged her into spending at least one night not in a shelter. And she'd have a hike that's a huge ascent at the end of the trip, when you're kinda dragging. That's a scary plan for November, alone.

ED could've gotten fogged in, too, right?
 
Just an opinion, but I think her focus might have been leaning towards pushing boundaries rather than safety while solo trekking in the Pyrenees during covid at the end of November.
 
RickshawFan said:
My favorite French blogger fellas did the loop hike in one day (snort!), including the Pic (snort!).
If I were doing the loop (I would certainly skip the Pic--not my thing, and I'd definitely not attempt it alone, and the views are plenty good enough from the Port), I'd want to do it in 2 days, starting at the Hospice, leaving at maybe 9 and checking out the Port. Leisurely lunch. The Refuge would have been nicely half way, and there's a water source. Arrival around 3 'cos I dawdle. In time for tea.
On arrival, go fetch water and filter 6 liters (or tap). Prolly a not-so-mushy cake (a gal's gotta live) 'cos I could still keep my food at <2lbs for the day.
I'd have "Thanksgiving Dinner" for dinner, a cup of soup made from dried vegetables and herbs from the co-op to get me hydrated. Then, a Ziploc freezer bag with 1 1/2 servings of powdered turkey gravy, dried cranberries, instant mashed potato, frozen peas. Did you calculate the weight? Cost maybe $2. Prolly 8-9 oz including the Ziploc. Pour boiling water on it, right in the bag. Let it set up while you chat. Done. Eat, right out of the bag. No dishes. 1/4 box of powdered chocolate pudding in another Ziploc along with correct amount of powdered milk. Pour cold water on top. Just a spoon; knife and fork stay home. Voilà. Just two Ziplocs to pack out for dinner.
Hot chocolate and several cups of water.
By then it's 8pm. Almost everyone will be half asleep.
Breakfast: 1 1/2 servings hot instant cereal like oats with nuts.
I'd have a nice lot of downhill on the 2nd day and plenty of time for 3 cups of coffee before I staggered down the trail.
I'd be using a 0 degree F bag in summer (about like the French bloggers); that's down to -18C (about where the Refuge was in November). Thick groundcloth. Insulated mattress.

Then there'd be all the other stuff like clothes in my pack. Everything goes in it; almost nothing goes on the outside. 50 liters.

Hope that gives you some idea about how a person would plan a trip like this... Light, plenty of the right kind of food, a treat or two, lots of liquid.

However, almost none of this plan could work for ED. ED couldn't start in France/the Hospice because of the lockdown. No matter how she did the loop—1 night or 2—this would have wedged her into spending at least one night not in a shelter. And she'd have a hike that's a huge ascent at the end of the trip, when you're kinda dragging. That's a scary plan for November, alone.

ED could've gotten fogged in, too, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, fogged in - losing sight.
 
otto said:
Pack size - looks like Esther had the lighter pack. Photos are from their travel website:

Just Around The Matterhorn - Are We Nearly There Yet? - DAY 27 FINALE - Photo Diary | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel

View attachment 277519

View attachment 277520

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View attachment 277523
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This will be a novel post where I can let you try something out yourself instead of just looking at photos or reading and trying to evaluate what you're seeing.

*Please note that I'm not doing anything to disparage the victim here. I'm talking about how equipment works, body mechanics, and why, and how it might be a factor on this trip.*

ED's pack is a 58 liter men's Exos pack made by Osprey, and the one someone sold her is maybe 2 inches too long for her body. Packs used to be fitted there, but not for the last 20 years. See how it sits on her butt? They're designed to sit higher. If they sit on the butt, they interfere with the butt and leg muscles, including the hip joint; they can do nerve damage there as well. You actually can't lift your legs properly if the pack is there. This might account for why she calls herself a slow hiker.
If you're not sure what I'm saying, you can figure out for yourself where your body carries weight and therefore where you optimally carry a pack. You will soon find out you would not want to put the weight of your pack on your butt! It just doesn't belong there.
Okay, so try one of these experiments. It helps to be female.
Method #1 Stand up. Plop a heavy lump of something on the floor. 8+ lbs will give you the right idea; no need to make it super heavy. A box or pillowcase with stuff in it will work. For now, it's a toddler. Pick up said toddler. Plonk said toddler on your body where you can hold it firmly. Don't even think about it. Just plonk it there. I bet you have toddler situated more or less on the top and onto the bony part of your pelvis where it creates hips. That's where your body likes to carry weight. So, that's where your pack, all that weight, has to sit. That's where a pack belt goes. On your body. Almost always cupping that bone.
Method #2. Quick and easy. Very fun. Stand up. Pick a fight with your girl teenager. Get huffy. Outdo your teenager by being the first to cop an attitude. Be dramatic! Yep, with your hand on your body, elbow sticking out, being totally annoying. Ha! You just put your fist where your body likes to carry weight. Your pack belt goes right there.
Now, look at ED. Ignore the raincover (they can be obnoxiously saggy). Is her pack sitting in an equivalent place? No! It's sagging down the butt, down by the tailbone somewhere, not where bodies like to carry weight to be comfortable and efficient. Anyway, this might account for her thinking of herself as slow; her bottom half is not going to be as responsive or lively as it might. She will fatigue faster. She will be dragged down.

Guys: Find your belly button. As designed, your pack buckle pretty much always sits right in front of it. Then evaluate the photos.

Now, I've written like, 3 essays, to help folks evaluate ED's situation while we wait for new MSM info.

Where the pack sits on ED may have some bearing on how she'd handle this trip.
 
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Grouse said:
Wow, that's a bit scary, really glad your partner spotted it and saved you!

I just think if something like this had happened with Esther, if she'd succumbed to hypothermia while camping in a bivvy bag/tent, she wouldn't be down some crevice out of sight she would have been found by SAR now.
Click to expand...
The thing is, people go missing all the time like that. They can be found, like, years later.

There's been a recent missing hiker on Rainier. Similar landscape to the trails ED was on. Loop trip. One overnight. They can't find hide nor hair of him.
 
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