Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[Grouse]

It's easy to forget that this is a 1600 ft fall from near the summit to the lake.

View attachment 279939

Google Earth

Yes, the dossier said "The only real possibility for a long fall is from the peak itself"

 

[RedHaus]

I'm interested in the overnight she had at the refuge on the 21st before the 2nd ascent to the Pic de S and if she changed her route to return there. Vehicles can drive up to the refuge where it's likely she could /would have accepted a lift from anyone.

snipped for focus.

You know, patCee, like others here, I keep oscillating between various scenarios that could explain ED's disappearance. One theory I had temporarily put on hold, is coming back to haunt me. Perhaps like you, I am wondering again about a hitchhike gone bad, in particular at the two 'exit' points on her intended loop. There is the Cabane de la Besurtas where she stayed 21/11 and the Hospice de France where perhaps she hung out 23/11 (or if she successfully hiked at dusk/night, 22/11).

Last night I stumbled on this YouTube video posted by ED and DC - it is brief and it is very happy. But they tell a story of getting 8 (yes, eight!) lifts to return to their van from hundreds of kilometers away where they were hiking that day. Wow! That is very trusting - even for a pair that includes a human male.

And so if on 22/11 ED was struggling emotionally (confused / angry / sad / lonely) or physically (hunger / dehydration / exhaustion / illness / cold) might she have opted to abort her trek and get back to civilization 22/11 or 23/11? And given their / her habitual dependence on others for rides, could she have gotten into the wrong car?

ETA: Both of the refuges I mention above have parking lots with road exits.

 

[Grouse]

The lettuce is bizarre. It contains mostly water and hardly nutrients. I suppose she used it to chew on the leaves, one at the time.

I noticed on some of the posts on SM on the trips with Dan they seemed to be big on what looked like lettuce leaves, often in a sandwich.

They might have made a nice tuna & potato salad, but I don't get the impression that they did.

"new friend, a warm fire , a jacket potato" (maybe she skipped the tuna being vegan) --> Login • Instagram

 

[fridaybaker]

It's easy to forget that this is a 1600 ft fall (slide, roll and bounce) from near the summit to the lake.

View attachment 279939

Google Earth

Still can't quite understand how easy it would be to fall from the peak? I wonder if it's ever happened before here?

 

[RedHaus]

FATMAP | Discover a world of adventure...
This is a really good 3D model of the topography of the walking route - only downside is the bit we could do with seeing clearly the bit over the passage to the lacs is sadly in shadow
ETA: sorry was hoping it would link to the refuge and lakes, not just the general whole world

Wow Ruthbullock. That is the most compelling image so far of how catastrophic a fall from the summit of pic de Sauvegarde would be - right into the deep end of Boum de Vanesque with steep gravel walls that would not let you get out, if by chance you survived the initial fall, which is doubtful.

And like @otto just posted, I agree there is no way to see the bottom of that lake from above, if it is 45m deep. You would need divers or underwater drones.

 

[otto]

snipped for focus.

You know, patCee, like others here, I keep oscillating between various scenarios that could explain ED's disappearance. One theory I had temporarily put on hold, is coming back to haunt me. Perhaps like you, I am wondering again about a hitchhike gone bad, in particular at the two 'exit' points on her intended loop. There is the Cabane de la Besurtas where she stayed 21/11 and the Hospice de France where perhaps she hung out 23/11 (or if she successfully hiked at dusk/night, 22/11).

Last night I stumbled on this YouTube video posted by ED and DC - it is brief and it is very happy. But they tell a story of getting 8 (yes, eight!) lifts to return to their van from hundreds of kilometers away where they were hiking that day. Wow! That is very trusting - even for a pair that includes a human male.

And so if on 22/11 ED was struggling emotionally (confused / angry / sad / lonely) or physically (hunger / dehydration / exhaustion / illness / cold) might she have opted to abort her trek and get back to civilization 22/11 or 23/11? And given their / her habitual dependence on others for rides, could she have gotten into the wrong car?

I watched that yesterday and also was surprised that they hitchhiked and needed 8 rides to get back to the van - where they seemed excited about preparing a meal with 2 pots. They seem quite pleased with the accomplishment. I think it's not only trusting, but demonstrates that they relied on the kindness of strangers to look after basic needs.

 

[otto]

Still can't quite understand how easy it would be to fall from the peak? I wonder if it's ever happened before here?

According to locals, it's common.

"Now, locals fear Dingley may have plunged into freezing waters, explaining why no trace of her has yet been found. “These kind of accidents are sadly very common all year round.

“Over the decades, people have fallen in the still and very deep water, and drowned, or severely injured themselves.

“In the past, it was common for bodies to disappear in the winter, because of the snow and increased water depth, and then to appear in the spring.

“The possibility of someone slipping into water is high, and with nobody else to rescue them or raise the alarm, the consequences can be fatal.”
​

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/worldnews/13403493/esther-dingley-lake/

 

[PeggyHenry]

Not sure about her being physically vulnerable,as she is described as very fit and strong, but certainly mentally. Thinking of the conversation she had with Laura who she spent some time with in the mountains, "they were on a break" and not sure whether they would continue together. A real dilemma as I'm not sure how ED would manage to continue her lifestyle alone. Also DCs social media before his illness when he described 'romance gone' and immense loathing. How do you get past that? By the distraction of a new lifestyle? (rhetorical questions).

I'm also surprised DC didn't join ED for a short time on her month away. To his credit he was fit and able to join SAR in the search for her. Though I'm surprised SAR supported that.

I'm interested in the overnight she had at the refuge on the 21st before the 2nd ascent to the Pic de S and if she changed her route to return there. Vehicles can drive up to the refuge where it's likely she could /would have accepted a lift from anyone.

I only mentioned physically vulnerable due to the food issues.. i.e. a lack of food making her vulnerable physically. As you say, Esther was fit and strong in terms of general fitness!
Interesting thought regarding vehicle access to that refuge. There is no trace of Esther or any of her belongings (so far, anyway) so I think it is definitely an option that her and her gear left the mountain by vehicle.

 

[fridaybaker]

I noticed on some of the posts on SM on the trips with Dan they seemed to be big on what looked like lettuce leaves, often in a sandwich.



"new friend, a warm fire , a jacket potato" (maybe she skipped the tuna being vegan) --> Login • Instagram

That post on Instagram includes a comment about "not being 100% motivated" (to do more hiking) but since some people aren't able to get out (reference to lockdowns, I believe) she "should" take advantage of it, or some such verbiage.

This is the trouble I have with ED and DC's descriptions of her and all of her smiles and cheeriness. I'm reminded of someone who thinks she "should" be doing much of this. It's very different from reading about and following other outdoors-types (mountaineers, sailors, hikers, etc.) and their adventures. I've just never read so much hesitation, lack of motivation, fears, etc. It seems to me that ED's lifestyle is almost something she has to convince herself of.

Regarding the whole "tuna-vegan" episode, I'd love to comment explicitly, but I shall stay mum. I thinks it's enough that the companion hiker said that they ate tuna and potatoes, whilst ED mentions the spud only. Part and parcel of the above phenomenon? Hmmm....

 

[RedHaus]

According to locals, it's common.

"Now, locals fear Dingley may have plunged into freezing waters, explaining why no trace of her has yet been found. “These kind of accidents are sadly very common all year round.

“Over the decades, people have fallen in the still and very deep water, and drowned, or severely injured themselves.

“In the past, it was common for bodies to disappear in the winter, because of the snow and increased water depth, and then to appear in the spring.

“The possibility of someone slipping into water is high, and with nobody else to rescue them or raise the alarm, the consequences can be fatal.”
​

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/worldnews/13403493/esther-dingley-lake/

I took a snip of that FatMap 3-D image @Ruthbullock provided and boy, it is such a great resource to really see the trail systems in that area. So much so I now realize for the first time that another point of high risk for falling into Baum de Vanesque could be the trail that goes towards Port de Glere from the Refuge de Vanesque, with pic de Sujust on the way (around the corner). I have posted that snip here with red arrows depicting the two steep fall zones that are readily apparent.

And... if ED decided perhaps on 22/11 at dusk to skip the Refuge de Vanesque (since no trace of her apparently) and take a 'short cut' from her loop towards Port de Glere to shorten her excursion (due to all the emotional and physical reasons we've been considering), that could put her on that steep section above the lake... at dusk...

Image source: FATMAP | Discover a world of adventure...

 

[patCee]

Still can't quite understand how easy it would be to fall from the peak? I wonder if it's ever happened before here?

I feel uncomfortable with 'edges', even infinity pools give me the shudders along with heights. They are mesmeric, calling to come over.
Just thinking of several peoples concerns about EDs meagre food and the effects it can have on the brain, then she's standing on the Pic.

 

[patCee]

I only mentioned physically vulnerable due to the food issues.. i.e. a lack of food making her vulnerable physically. As you say, Esther was fit and strong in terms of general fitness!
Interesting thought regarding vehicle access to that refuge. There is no trace of Esther or any of her belongings (so far, anyway) so I think it is definitely an option that her and her gear left the mountain by vehicle.

Likely to be lots of people around too, despite the time of year. Just thinking of all the hunters, and the full car park at the ski resort. Along with roads near to the various areas.

 

[fridaybaker]

I took a snip of that FatMap 3-D image @Ruthbullock provided and boy, it is such a great resource to really see the trail systems in that area. So much so I now realize for the first time that another point of high risk for falling into Baum de Vanesque could be the trail that goes towards Port de Glere from the Refuge de Vanesque, with pic de Sujust on the way (around the corner). I have posted that snip here with red arrows depicting the two steep fall zones that are readily apparent.

And... if ED decided perhaps on 22/11 at dusk to skip the Refuge de Vanesque (since no trace of her apparently) and take a 'short cut' from her loop towards Port de Glere to shorten her excursion (due to all the emotional and physical reasons we've been considering), that could put her on that steep section above the lake... at dusk...
View attachment 279946
Image source: FATMAP | Discover a world of adventure...

That's terrifying to look at! No wonder locals think she could be at the bottom of a lake.

It seems so contrary, though, to the way DC describes it. I believe he's said that the route she'd planned (told to him) as well as the surrounding area, were "well within her capability/expertise". No places where there would be significant risk of a bad fall, etc. "Would be hard to fall into a lake", etc., etc., etc. Not sure where I read this, be pretty sure this was the gist.

 

[Grouse]

That post on Instagram includes a comment about "not being 100% motivated" (to do more hiking) but since some people aren't able to get out (reference to lockdowns, I believe) she "should" take advantage of it, or some such verbiage.

Verbiage is a great word to describe it. I'm starting to wonder if it's worth reading too much into a lot of these posts. Often it seems like something has to be posted simply for the sake of it, because of this obvious compulsion to post copiously and frequently. I knew someone who ran a blog and I had to stop reading his in the end it as ended up being mainly navel gazing contemplation as he ran out of ideas on things to post.

I find it hard to assess whether she is actually fragile or just seems that way due to posting such a lot of personal information.

 

[Palemaiden]

The water is 45 m deep. It's impossible to see to the bottom. It's more likely the surface of the water will provide a reflection of the clouds.

 

[Palemaiden]

Plus wearing dark clothing and a grey rucksack would make it very difficult to see someone under the water. But , no evidence on the scree or rocks below the track is still surprising...

 

[ZaZara]

I noticed on some of the posts on SM on the trips with Dan they seemed to be big on what looked like lettuce leaves, often in a sandwich.



"new friend, a warm fire , a jacket potato" (maybe she skipped the tuna being vegan) --> Login • Instagram

But where was the sandwich? Great food in summer, in November not so much.

I still can't get over that small lettuce. My first thought was that perhaps she could not make a smoothie in the mountains and took at least the basic ingredients?

Was reminded of the time when my sister and her best friend went for a hiking holiday in the Alps. They were still in highschool at the time, slender & agile girls. They would make hikes from one, two, three days in the mountains, they'd stay in cabins overnight and always returned to the village where they had a room. They made their own sandwiches, had three meals a day and treated themselves to Kirschtorte, cake with cherries, chocolate and lots of cream, daily. Despite the meals with lots of carbs and Speck, and the Kirschtorte, they each lost 5 kgs of weight. (Which they gained back quickly because the habit of eating cake stuck with them for a while after they had returned home. )

So, those were a lot of calories, but they needed them. They would have come crashing down the mountains if they had tried to hike on oats, lettuce and a bell pepper. There are laws of nutrition, of energy that the body needs, that one cannot ignore. Oats do not magically contain more energy simply because you believe they do.

I suppose the roasted potato was ED's Kirschtorte. I never would have believed that this was the only thing she ate when I first saw the post, in fact at the time I was led to believe that the other person had brought an extra potato, just in case.

It makes one think...

 

[Grouse]

But where was the sandwich? Great food in summer, in November not so much.
<snipped for focus>
I suppose the roasted potato was ED's Kirschtorte. I never would have believed that this was the only thing she ate when I first saw the post, in fact at the time I was led to believe that the other person had brought an extra potato, just in case.

The sandwich thing was on some much older posts, not this trip. I just mentioned it as they seemed to eat a lot of leaves often in sandwiches. No I don't think a lettuce sandwich even in summer would sustain me on a hike.

Just speculation but I think the other girl most likely did provide the potato. It was a planned trip and if she knew there'd be logs for a fire in that cabane, it would been a good thing to pack a potato for each of them, and maybe hope ED also packed something nice that they could share.

 

[RickshawFan]

It's not rational, when you are always hungry. And it's certainly not rational when your diet isn't adequate to your lifestyle. A lettuce head, some bell peppers and dried oats is very inadequate food for someone on a mountain trail in late Autumn.

Totally agree. Experience would tell you that this is not the right kind of food for a hike. Compounded with the overnight and November.... There's no fat, no protein, few calories...
ED is likely burning 4000+ kcals a day (AT thru-hikers average 6000+ kcals a day).

 

[ChiCubs2016]

Apologies for my share of this misunderstanding. Actually, there is context missing here.
My sentence responded to a post by another poster, and includes personal observations about times when my safety has been risked by hikers I don't know and who expected me to accommodate them.
My sentence does not reflect or refer to tabloid press. We have ED's own words, as well as the dossier. I'm not sure I've even read the tabloids.

I have asked the mod to remove my quoted post, so there's no further confusion.

I have been thinking about the request for fruit. With the added information provided by LA that Esther did not have a lot of food, I wonder if she gets sugar lows. I get them now and then. I am not diabetic. I just get busy and will forget to eat. My doctor told me to eat a piece of fruit because it works fast. He did lecture me on forgetting to eat and said I still need to eat a regular meal but the fruit will help while I prepare food. I just find it odd to use the “do you have a piece of fruit” as an ice breaker. How about “hello, how is your hike going?” Nothing negative on DC, but maybe he did not want to say Esther does not take enough food because people would think negatively of her? And it would contradict that she was always prepared. When something like this happens I am sure the first instinct is to protect the missing person (a loved one) from negative information. MOO. Just my thoughts and ramblings! MOO!