Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

[10ofRods]

Loads of discussion around this in thread #2 if you're interested. It's one of those circular debates that crop up in cases.

I am not going to say anything more about the science of this situation, as I find it difficult to hear juried academic literature with clear conclusions characterized as part of a "circular debate" and won't engage at that level. It was merely brain science (physiology). I apologize if the information led to so much unwanted discussion.

At the time I weighed in, some of Esther's typical hiking provisions had been posted. Perhaps these were in error. I'm not going back through the dossier to read them, if any clues are there. I think someone posted from her Insta about her previous provisions and I posted some science regarding the brain. It's all on the second thread. Also, there were fewer people on the thread at the time, and newcomers may well wish to read what was said by me (and a couple of others) as it is a cautionary story.

Which is why I posted it. I do appreciate that some people found it valuable.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

I am not going to say anything more about the science of this situation, as I find it difficult to hear juried academic literature with clear conclusions characterized as part of a "circular debate" and won't engage at that level. It was merely brain science (physiology). I apologize if the information led to so much unwanted discussion.

At the time I weighed in, some of Esther's typical hiking provisions had been posted. Perhaps these were in error. I'm not going back through the dossier to read them, if any clues are there. I think someone posted from her Insta about her previous provisions and I posted some science regarding the brain. It's all on the second thread. Also, there were fewer people on the thread at the time, and newcomers may well wish to read what was said by me (and a couple of others) as it is a cautionary story.

Which is why I posted it. I do appreciate that some people found it valuable.

A circular debate for me is a topic which keeps being brought up and discussed, having already been discussed many times. Guessing it has a different meaning in the US

ETA yes agree, I directed the poster to thread #2 where they can find lots of useful info about the food topic

 

[10ofRods]

I didn't mean to re-open the "asking for food" topic, my apologies.

And thanks to @RedHaus and @otto for replying.

What I was trying [poorly] to ask was, how close to the trailhead were the skier and his friend when they encountered ED? Were they almost to their vehicle or did they still have hours of hiking left?

I'm usually good with maps but for some reason (perhaps the unfamiliar names and two different languages) I'm struggling with this case.

I'm just asking how close to "done hiking" were the skier and friend. Thanks!

Skier and friend had summited, were on the way down. They figured Esther was about an hour from the top and thought it odd that she was up so late in the day (paraphrasing from memory). Then, significantly, they saw no one else going up as they went down. Skier may not have been certain of exact time.

Esther apparently summited about 30-45 minutes later, spent a bit of time there (was there at 3:30 pm, we don't know exactly when she left). Depending on where she was going next (presumably to the refuge as DC said she told him), she may have had to do some hiking at dusk or civil twilight or in the dark.

We've already discussed the routes and the times, but I would find it valuable to hear again from Rick or Otto or anyone who can easily recall how many minutes to the refuge vs. how many minutes to the road. I'm pretty sure it would have been dark at arrival at either place.

Since DC says that no item of Esther's was given to the dogs, I have been asking people I know (in Europe) about what type of dogs might be involved and was told by a French friend that she assumed it was a dog trained to locate people under snow (living or dead? she wasn't sure). She says that's the common type of dog used in the Pyrenees (like Pyrenees Mountain Dogs, who can assist in digging out unlucky avalanche victims).

So it seems possible that when the authorities said "no sign of Esther at the refuge" they did not mean scent, they meant no visible-to-humans sign. I believe it was 3 days after Esther would have been there, so I do wonder what kind of trace she would have left, aside from scent.

 

[ZaZara]

That's great, thanks for that. I can get by in French but a whole book would be too much I think. I will try some more research on it though.

Aagh! My bad. The book that I referred to was written by another Dasnois, in 2002, some years before Françoise disappeared. Dasnois is her maiden name, the husband has a different name.
I cannot find where I first read about the book, so confusion reigns, but IMO you can spare yourself the trouble.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

You would hope the refuge had a proper forensic investigation for signs of Esther like hair, urine, fingerprints, even something obvious like discarded food packaging. I’m not sure that it’s ever been reported whether that was done or whether it was just a visual search.

 

[Ninja Bunny]

I didn't mean to re-open the "asking for food" topic, my apologies.

And thanks to @RedHaus and @otto for replying.

What I was trying [poorly] to ask was, how close to the trailhead were the skier and his friend when they encountered ED? Were they almost to their vehicle or did they still have hours of hiking left?

I'm usually good with maps but for some reason (perhaps the unfamiliar names and two different languages) I'm struggling with this case.

I'm just asking how close to "done hiking" were the skier and friend. Thanks!

Don’t feel you have to apologize, unless an admin or mod tells us not to, we’re free to discuss it.

 

[miekei]

I’m not an expert hiker, but I have done some hiking. If I were going to make small talk with another hiker I wouldn’t ask them for food, it strikes me as weird and awkward and an unnecessary imposition. If a stranger asked me for food and it wasn’t an emergency, I’d say no and move away from that person.

Her asking for food while going up late in the day, particularly after arguing over the price of chia seeds, is a red flag to me. It indicates to me that something was already wrong before she disappeared.

Sorry but I don’t find the “chia seeds episode” strange at all. It’s happened to me a number of times, especially when travelling, having to ask the cashier about a discrepancy in pricing only to be told that you have to have a loyalty card in order to get the discount. It’s not always obvious.

 

[CharlesSwann]

The suicide angle may be worth a bit more analysis. Might that scenario be consistent with the following:
- Going off on her own in the wilderness. Perhaps the whole thing was a premeditated 'last journey'.
- The coinciding of this trip with the BBC feature. Might that have been more publicity than she was comfortable with?
- Apparently climbing Sauvegarde twice on successive days. I've been pondering why anyone would want to do that. Could it be that she had been surveying for a good spot and having found it, went back the next day prepared for the deed?
- She ascended rather late in the day (also quite odd) as if she was aiming to be up there for the (symbolic) sunset and had no intention of coming down.
The conclusion from this line of speculation might be that she found some concealed place near the summit of Sauvegarde (west-facing?), where she took her own life, say, by swallowing a handful of pills?
Just to add that that is exactly the sort of thing I would be tempted to do myself if I was looking for a noble end.

 

[miekei]

Françoise Dasnois does not have a thread on WS.
Her name came up on a list of people still missing in the area as of now.
There is some info about her in MSM, but most of it is behind a paywall.
The best source of general information is perhaps the book that her husband wrote about her disappearance. The book is in French.

Françoise Dasnois disappeared in 2009 on a trail called la ruta del Portal de la Cunarda, in the Sierra de Guara. More info about this trail here:
Portal de La Cunarda | Excursiones por Huesca

From a certain point on, the trail is circular. Twice. It is not known at what point Françoise Dasnois either returned to the village, or waited for her family to hike the first or second circular part. The terrain starts very simple, with a road from the village and wide paths through the fields and low bushes. This changes further on, the canyon is very steep. The landscape is nothing like the area where Esther disappeared.

If you want to start a thread, do so by all means, but sources are hard to come by and basic info like the point where she was last seen is not open on the internet. IMO unles you read the book, there is little to sleuth.

You’re right ZaZara, she was mentioned a few threads back in the context of other missing hikers. I must have come across her case on a different missing persons forum some years ago. I do remember reading about her in the papers at the time. I’d be interested in reading the book you mentioned, written by her husband. Would you happen to have a title? I can’t seem to find a link anywhere.

 

[ZaZara]

You’re right ZaZara, she was mentioned a few threads back in the context of other missing hikers. I must have come across her case on a different missing persons forum some years ago. I do remember reading about her in the papers at the time. I’d be interested in reading the book you mentioned, written by her husband. Would you happen to have a title? I can’t seem to find a link anywhere.

Aagh! My bad. The book that I referred to was written by another Dasnois, in 2002, some years before Françoise disappeared. Dasnois is her maiden name, the husband has a different name.
I cannot find where I first read about the book, so confusion reigns, but IMO you can spare yourself the trouble.

 

[Inspectormotive]

Someone mentioned the timestamps and her last IG posting was at a different time as she tended to post in the evenings.

I also noticed she was quite good at bothering with capital letters on place names...because I am not. On her last IG posting she didn't bother with the capital b or capital l and she didn't fix it later.

I am pointing it out because it is not usual for her.

The asking for food is usual behaviour for ED

 

[otto]

Indeed, that was my point but it seems to have disproportionately upset a few people who seem to see it as begging.

There are enough instances over a period of 6 years where they rely on others for everything from power supply to food that insufficient provisions cannot be overlooked. It's almost like they've given themselves a handicap of insufficient provisions as a challenge, and it is considered a "win" to successfully receive assistance from strangers.

For me, this is the point that matters when a solo backcountry hiker disappears on an isolated mountain in late November. Given her history, it is not unlikely that she was not sufficiently prepared for the hike, and that is a relevant factor in her disappearance. Not only was she fuzzy regarding the trip plan, conditions at the refuge and the location of the Spain / France border, but she asked the only people she met for food on the second day of her hike. She ought to have known that those hikers had a few hours hike ahead of them and would need their provisions, but still she gave it a shot to see whether they would part with their provisions for her benefit.

That unpreparedness has resulted in questions regarding her trip plan and whether she, in the moment, decided to follow animal trails, or deviate from known trails to try something brave and new to assert her confidence in solo treks.

It is begging? The same behaviour in downtown London is perceived as begging. When requests for food are made at the top of a mountain, is it still begging? I do not see it as friendly conversation, do perceive it as putting others in a position where they will feel torn between keeping what they need for themselves or handing it over to someone who expresses a need. The bottom line is that her requests for food supports the point that she was not properly equipped for a 4 day solo hike when she vanished.

 

[patCee]

Interesting. I might be getting forum fatigue now, but I can't seem to find anything on Francoise Dasnois on WS other than references in this thread. Is it still available?

https://www.sudinfo.be/art/651233/a...-la-ville-le-mystere-francoise-dasnois#xfbml2

A very brief article but does mention a name I believe may belong to her husband. You may have already seen it but otherwise might give more clues to more info e. g. the date.

 

[10ofRods]

There are enough instances over a period of 6 years where they rely on others for everything from power supply to food that insufficient provisions cannot be overlooked. It's almost like they've given themselves a handicap of insufficient provisions as a challenge, and it is considered a "win" to successfully receive assistance from strangers.

For me, this is the point that matters when a solo backcountry hiker disappears on an isolated mountain in late November. Given her history, it is not unlikely that she was not sufficiently prepared for the hike, and that is a relevant factor in her disappearance. Not only was she fuzzy regarding the trip plan, conditions at the refuge and the location of the Spain / France border, but she asked the only people she met for food on the second day of her hike. She ought to have known that those hikers had a few hours hike ahead of them and would need their provisions, but still she gave it a shot to see whether they would part with their provisions for her benefit.

That unpreparedness has resulted in questions regarding her trip plan and whether she, in the moment, decided to follow animal trails, or deviate from known trails to try something brave and new to assert her confidence in solo treks.

It is begging? The same behaviour in downtown London is perceived as begging. When requests for food are made at the top of a mountain, is it still begging? I do not see it as friendly conversation, do perceive it as putting others in a position where they will feel torn between keeping what they need for themselves or handing it over to someone who expresses a need. The bottom line is that her requests for food supports the point that she was not properly equipped for a 4 day solo hike when she vanished.

Exactly. That indeed is the issue. It's clear that she was not as prepared as an experienced or expert hiker should or would be. She did some things right (let people know where she was going) and a lot of things seem very wrong (the rule about food is always have enough to meet calorie needs plus some). She apparently had 2 headlamps (good thing) but did she know about the eminent change in weather? Appears she did not use DC as a resource for weather-checking in that final phone call (according to him). She said she hoped the winter room would be open (it was), but was she able to locate it in the dark if necessary?

But people do this all the time, once they are comfortable with their own hiking style and especially if they've been on a trail several times. It's almost always the case that in a wilderness misadventure that the person ignored one of the basics. She liked to go light, so I also wonder about water supply. The refuge had a pipe that would provide water in winter - unless it was frozen. For a 4 day hike, enough fuel would be needed to melt snow/ice (unless one really did go off trail to scramble down to one of the lakes). At least, that's how I understand that next section of her route.

If she made it to the refuge, left no trace, and went onward, her difficulties would have continued regarding fuel, water and food. I think it began to snow heavily on the third day. More than one hiker has perished in a tent buried under snowfall, trying to stay warm. The Spanish and French authorities have both hinted that this is a possibility. I don't know the snow situation up there, but it seems unlikely that there's been a big melt-off, judging from the temperatures in the past couple of months.

In fact, it seems to have snowed some more. Hypothermia variables will lead us back to topics we've already discussed.

 

[miekei]

https://www.sudinfo.be/art/651233/a...-la-ville-le-mystere-francoise-dasnois#xfbml2

A very brief article but does mention a name I believe may belong to her husband. You may have already seen it but otherwise might give more clues to more info e. g. the date.

Yes, her husband's name is Hugues Legendre.

 

[moonriverfarm]

Occam's Razor would be accident, just like Sam Sayers.

 

[10ofRods]

A circular debate for me is a topic which keeps being brought up and discussed, having already been discussed many times. Guessing it has a different meaning in the US

ETA yes agree, I directed the poster to thread #2 where they can find lots of useful info about the food topic

To me, that's not a debate at all - it's just repetition. And I am immersed in such discussions every day, as I am a teacher. So maybe my threshold of tolerance is way higher.

A debate is when one person says something, backs it up with something, and then another person disagrees and presents their side.

There are not two sides about the role of protein in the human body (as an example). At least not at the simplistic level at which we discussed it here. There are debates in academia about precise mechanisms, but that wasn't the topic.

Personally, since I am on many threads here on WS, I find it very common for discussions to recur (go take a look at the Suzanne Morphew thread - it's entirely rehash at this point, of course). I think this is useful for newcomers, if others want to engage.

I don't think this is a difference in the way two nations use language, btw.

 

[10ofRods]

Occam's Razor would be accident, just like Sam Sayers.

Yes. I totally agree. Accident/misadventure (such as setting up a tent in the wrong place right before a good snow).

 

[HongKongPhooey]

To me, that's not a debate at all - it's just repetition. And I am immersed in such discussions every day, as I am a teacher. So maybe my threshold of tolerance is way higher.

A debate is when one person says something, backs it up with something, and then another person disagrees and presents their side.

There are not two sides about the role of protein in the human body (as an example). At least not at the simplistic level at which we discussed it here. There are debates in academia about precise mechanisms, but that wasn't the topic.

Personally, since I am on many threads here on WS, I find it very common for discussions to recur (go take a look at the Suzanne Morphew thread - it's entirely rehash at this point, of course). I think this is useful for newcomers, if others want to engage.

I don't think this is a difference in the way two nations use language, btw.

Yes, I was thinking earlier of Barb Thomas's bikini and beer too. Some cases just invite v opposing views.

For clarity, the debate I was referring to myself was specifically the different opinions and to-ing and fro-ing regarding why ED asked for fruit. Despite the fact her partner covers this in the dossier (presuming he wrote it with the LBT). Which in turn often leads to whether she had sufficient supplies with her on the day she disappeared. Which we cannot know, only guess really, IMO. And so it goes, round and round. But, as someone else quite rightly said, people are free to post as they like.

I'm afraid I wasnt referring to anything remotely scientific relating to proteins or anything else! I have no expertise in that field at all.

 

[otto]

Yes, I was thinking earlier of Barb Thomas's bikini and beer too. Some cases just invite v opposing views.

For clarity, the debate I was referring to myself was specifically the different opinions and to-ing and fro-ing regarding why ED asked for fruit. Despite the fact her partner covers this in the dossier (presuming he wrote it with the LBT). Which in turn often leads to whether she had sufficient supplies with her on the day she disappeared. Which we cannot know, only guess really, IMO. And so it goes, round and round. But, as someone else quite rightly said, people are free to post as they like.

I'm afraid I wasnt referring to anything remotely scientific relating to proteins or anything else! I have no expertise in that field at all.

The reason that insufficient provisions is discussed is because her partner mentioned this concern in relation to her disappearance, and there is evidence that she had insufficient provisions. Her partner knows, just as we do, that insufficient provisions could factor in her disappearance.

There is an ongoing debate over whether she had insufficient provisions and asked for food because she needed it, or whether she believed that asking strangers for their well planned provisions was a form of friendly banter at the top of a mountain. I agree with her partner that she made the mistake of insufficient provisions and that could have been a fatal mistake.

"She said she liked to travel light when she was in the mountains.'

'If she made mistakes anywhere, it could have been the provisions she'd take because she was well-prepared in terms of equipment and very strong physically."
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